Fire Bloom .

[Bellhorn04]

I lost a lot of faith in Cora after the way he handled Hill and Barnes last year. Hill was actually the Sox best SP, but was basically assigned a pitching partner for his games and was pulled very quickly several times. Barnes was the Sox worst RP but was given sole province for all extra inning games in the early parts. And was a huge factor in the Sox poor record in extra innings…

 

I think that's totally wrong about Barnes. It happened 3 times, and each time he was virtually the last available reliever. I'm surprised you think of this a big mistake by Cora.

[moonslav59]

I lost a lot of faith in Cora after the way he handled Hill and Barnes last year. Hill was actually the Sox best SP, but was basically assigned a pitching partner for his games and was pulled very quickly several times. Barnes was the Sox worst RP but was given sole province for all extra inning games in the early parts. And was a huge factor in the Sox poor record in extra innings…

 

I disagreed with the role Barnes was give and for how long he stayed in that role, but our pen sucked, last year, and options were few and likely just as bad.

[sk7326]

I think that's totally wrong about Barnes. It happened 3 times, and each time he was virtually the last available reliever. I'm surprised you think of this a big mistake by Cora.

 

And if you look at the actual Barnes 2022 season - he was outstanding, then his shoulder got hurt and then sad trombone

[Bellhorn04]

I think that's totally wrong about Barnes. It happened 3 times, and each time he was virtually the last available reliever. I'm surprised you think of this a big mistake by Cora.

 

Here was the reliever usage in those 3 extra inning losses:

 

Apr 26

Sawamura

Davis

Brasier

Robles

Diekman

Barnes

 

May 4

Davis

Strahm

Robles

Diekman

Barnes

 

May 7

Brasier

Schreiber

Strahm

Robles

Barnes

 

So he was 6th guy, 5th guy, 5th guy. And not all the guys used before him were what you'd call elite.

 

Sure looks like the real problem was...not winning the game in regulation innings, maybe?

[Maxbialystock]

You can't just throw the same 2-3 guys out there every night. A manager has to be conscious of who they're facing, who they will face tomorrow, the day after, and who they're playing next week. They have to see what matchups are going to happen or could happen. Guys like Garza, Jacques, Ort, Kluber (he's on the IL now) are going to have to pitch at some point, and unfortunately, the perfect opportunity (up 15-1 or down 15-1) is not going to present itself as much as it would to make the decision easy.

 

Assuming you have 5 guys in the rotation, a manager only has 8 guys in the pen, and he's going to need 3-4 innings every night. If you have guys on your roster sitting and not pitching, then the fewer innings they pitch are going to be made up by the other guys thus increasing the chance of injuring the good guys who are actually worth something.

 

I get in a vacuum, looking at one game it can become easy to scratch our heads at Cora "Why did he bring this guy in" but the reality is, he has to think about the rest of the week and all 162 games, and keeping guys healthy.

 

It's not as easy as it looks from the armchair.

 

You said the same thing I said, only you said it better.

[Maxbialystock]

Here was the reliever usage in those 3 extra inning losses:

 

Apr 26

Sawamura

Davis

Brasier

Robles

Diekman

Barnes

 

May 4

Davis

Strahm

Robles

Diekman

Barnes

 

May 7

Brasier

Schreiber

Strahm

Robles

Barnes

 

So he was 6th guy, 5th guy, 5th guy. And not all the guys used before him were what you'd call elite.

 

Sure looks like the real problem was...not winning the game in regulation innings, maybe?

 

Impressive.

[moonslav59]

And if you look at the actual Barnes 2022 season - he was outstanding, then his shoulder got hurt and then sad trombone

 

That was 2021.

[Dipre]

I lost a lot of faith in Cora after the way he handled Hill and Barnes last year. Hill was actually the Sox best SP, but was basically assigned a pitching partner for his games and was pulled very quickly several times. Barnes was the Sox worst RP but was given sole province for all extra inning games in the early parts. And was a huge factor in the Sox poor record in extra innings…

 

Absolutely an analytics department mandate.

[mvp 78]

I lost a lot of faith in Cora after the way he handled Hill and Barnes last year. Hill was actually the Sox best SP, but was basically assigned a pitching partner for his games and was pulled very quickly several times. Barnes was the Sox worst RP but was given sole province for all extra inning games in the early parts. And was a huge factor in the Sox poor record in extra innings…

 

Hill was the oldest player in MLB and has a lengthy injury history, but you're worried about them managing his innings??? PIT isn't holding back this season and his ERA/FIP are worse off for it.

[notin]

I think that's totally wrong about Barnes. It happened 3 times, and each time he was virtually the last available reliever. I'm surprised you think of this a big mistake by Cora.

 

1. They only played 6 extra inning games during that stretch. Barnes took 3 10th innings and was ineffective in all of them.

 

2. In two of the three, he did not finish and was relieved, which means he wasn’t the last reliever available. (Strahm, who was the Sox best RP in the early part of last season, relieved him in one of those two.)

[notin]

Hill was the oldest player in MLB and has a lengthy injury history, but you're worried about them managing his innings??? PIT isn't holding back this season and his ERA/FIP are worse off for it.

 

Managing IP is one thing. But Hill had two back-to-back starts where he threw 9IP, 0ER, 2H, 1BB, 10K and only totaled 134 pitches. And he was not happy to be pulled in either game.

 

His IP were ovvermanaged. And to designate Houck - clearly one of the best arms in the pen - as his sole piggyback was a waste of Houck.

 

And the goal isn’t to keep Hill’s stats better. Was over-limiting Hill and tying up Houck as his dedicated RP a good strategy or not?

[mvp 78]

Managing IP is one thing. But Hill had two back-to-back starts where he threw 9IP, 0ER, 2H, 1BB, 10K and only totaled 134 pitches. And he was not happy to be pulled in either game.

 

His IP were ovvermanaged. And to designate Houck - clearly one of the best arms in the pen - as his sole piggyback was a waste of Houck.

 

And the goal isn’t to keep Hill’s stats better. Was over-limiting Hill and tying up Houck as his dedicated RP a good strategy or not?

 

They were keeping Houck stretched out, which in hindsight seems like a good idea since he was an ok starter this year. His stuff didn't really play up in a bullpen role. Maybe he is just a bulk reliever?

[Bellhorn04]

1. They only played 6 extra inning games during that stretch. Barnes took 3 10th innings and was ineffective in all of them.

 

2. In two of the three, he did not finish and was relieved, which means he wasn’t the last reliever available. (Strahm, who was the Sox best RP in the early part of last season, relieved him in one of those two.)

 

He was very close to the last guy used. If he was used instead of Strahm it was probably because RH hitters were coming up. Was Barnes so bad that he was dead last on the list? Was he an extra innings choker, is that the idea? Seems like you're judging on the results.

[Dipre]

Managing IP is one thing. But Hill had two back-to-back starts where he threw 9IP, 0ER, 2H, 1BB, 10K and only totaled 134 pitches. And he was not happy to be pulled in either game.

 

His IP were ovvermanaged. And to designate Houck - clearly one of the best arms in the pen - as his sole piggyback was a waste of Houck.

 

And the goal isn’t to keep Hill’s stats better. Was over-limiting Hill and tying up Houck as his dedicated RP a good strategy or not?

 

Absolutely an analytics department mandate.

 

This.

[notin]

Here was the reliever usage in those 3 extra inning losses:

 

Apr 26

Sawamura

Davis

Brasier

Robles

Diekman

Barnes

 

May 4

Davis

Strahm

Robles

Diekman

Barnes

 

May 7

Brasier

Schreiber

Strahm

Robles

Barnes

 

So he was 6th guy, 5th guy, 5th guy. And not all the guys used before him were what you'd call elite.

 

Sure looks like the real problem was...not winning the game in regulation innings, maybe?

 

You’re sucking away the credibility of the CDT. Even Bloom’s staunchest supporters have called him out on a few things. So now Cora’s questionable use of Barnes in extra innings is the fault of the team for not winning sooner?

[notin]

He was very close to the last guy used. If he was used instead of Strahm it was probably because RH hitters were coming up. Was Barnes so bad that he was dead last on the list? Was he an extra innings choker, is that the idea? Seems like you're judging on the results.

 

Mostly because he hadn’t been an effective MLB relief pitcher for about 6 months at that time. He wasn’t left off the postseason roster because he was just too good…

[notin]

They were keeping Houck stretched out, which in hindsight seems like a good idea since he was an ok starter this year. His stuff didn't really play up in a bullpen role. Maybe he is just a bulk reliever?

 

His stuff played up quite well in a bullpen role in 2021. It seems like if the goal was to stretch Houck out, starter would be the best way, as opposed to compromising the bullpen to develop one pitcher…

[Bellhorn04]

Mostly because he hadn’t been an effective MLB relief pitcher for about 6 months at that time. He wasn’t left off the postseason roster because he was just too good…

 

Barnes's OPSa for the month of April/22 was .633.

[moonslav59]

For some reason, it seems like a lot of managers go with questionable pitchers in the 10th.

[Bellhorn04]

For some reason, it seems like a lot of managers go with questionable pitchers in the 10th.

 

Usually because the good ones have already been used.

[Bellhorn04]

2. In two of the three, he did not finish and was relieved, which means he wasn’t the last reliever available. (Strahm, who was the Sox best RP in the early part of last season, relieved him in one of those two.)

 

In the game Strahm relieved him, Barnes faced 3 batters, all RH batters. Intentional BB to Vlad Jr., BB to Kirk, struck out Chapman. Strahm came in and gave up the game winning sac fly to Tapia. So the total damage by Barnes was one walk. The run scored because of the Manfred Man.

[moonslav59]

In the game Strahm relieved him, Barnes faced 3 batters, all RH batters. Intentional BB to Vlad Jr., BB to Kirk, struck out Chapman. Strahm came in and gave up the game winning sac fly to Tapia. So the total damage by Barnes was one walk. The run scored because of the Manfred Man.

 

Apparently, the problem was that after 2 times failing, he should not have been given a third chance.

 

Talk about small sample sizes. LOL.

 

Our pen sucked, last year. Barnes was one of the few pitchers with some sort of hope he could regain some of his first half '21 magic.

 

[notin]

In the game Strahm relieved him, Barnes faced 3 batters, all RH batters. Intentional BB to Vlad Jr., BB to Kirk, struck out Chapman. Strahm came in and gave up the game winning sac fly to Tapia. So the total damage by Barnes was one walk. The run scored because of the Manfred Man.

 

The ghost runner isn’t an excuse. It’s not like the existence of the ghost runner should have been a surprise to Cora. He chose the less effective pitcher for a tougher spot.

 

And given how Barnes pitched in the second half, I don’t even think right-handed hitters offer much justification. Just because Barnes is right-handed doesn’t make him the right guy to face Guerrero, Kirk, etc. with the winning run in scoring position…

[Bellhorn04]

The ghost runner isn’t an excuse. It’s not like the existence of the ghost runner should have been a surprise to Cora. He chose the less effective pitcher for a tougher spot.

 

And given how Barnes pitched in the second half, I don’t even think right-handed hitters offer much justification. Just because Barnes is right-handed doesn’t make him the right guy to face Guerrero, Kirk, etc. with the winning run in scoring position…

 

As mentioned, Barnes didn't face Guerrero. And Strahm was the guy who got walked off.

 

Edit: Also, Strahm had pitched the previous game, going 1/3 of inning, giving up 3 hits, being charged with 2 runs and the loss.

Edited July 10, 2023 by Bellhorn04

[Maxbialystock]

Usually because the good ones have already been used.

 

I think that's right because I think managers believe--I certainly do--that the 10th is something of a crapshoot.

[Bellhorn04]

I think that's right because I think managers believe--I certainly do--that the 10th is something of a crapshoot.

 

And you can't really plan around the possibility of the game going to extras...not in a regular season game, anyway.

[Dipre]

I swear to God if I see y'all mention Barnes one more time.......

[Bellhorn04]

I swear to God if I see y'all mention Barnes one more time.......

 

Sorry man, it's how we roll here. We're nuts.

[notin]

As mentioned, Barnes didn't face Guerrero. And Strahm was the guy who got walked off.

 

Edit: Also, Strahm had pitched the previous game, going 1/3 of inning, giving up 3 hits, being charged with 2 runs and the loss.

 

But…. Bat Marnes.. wasn’t exactly lighting it up out there. He pitched 3 of the Sox first 6 extra IP games and allowed 4ER plus 3 ghost runners to score and lasted all of 2 innings.

 

I would have been ok using Bat Marnes against the bottom of the order, like he did against Anaheim (who absolutely crushed him). But Cora kept using him against the middle of the order in these situations.

 

And maybe Cora would have had other options if not for the foolish piggyback strategy on Houck…

[vegasbob]

And I cannot count the times I was criticized for disliking Matt Barnes consistently since about 2019, even if he was pitching well for a brief half season.

 

With rare exception he was an intellectually challenged, gutless loser who get rewarded and then fell apart helping to make my point. He could not throw strikes when it counted and was Mr. Wild Pitch on his overthrown curve balls, looking goofy in the act . His gross tendency to fall off to his left side during throwing, left his arm dragging behind eliminating all possibilities of a good pitch or fielding his position on a bouncer back to the mound.

 

Hope he saved some of his $10M contract because he will need it in his later years. I'm thankful to have seen through this fraud from the beginning.