Fire Bloom .

[Dipre]

That may have helped the record be what it was, but did they have all the Wildcard stuff going on back in 1967, and if they did how many more Red Sox teams would have made the playoffs if they did? 1972, and 1978 are easy examples.

 

IT didn't "just help". Lack of luxury tax and free-roam access to international players shaped the league for years. The Yankees built a dynasty off of it. Don't downplay this fact because it suits your argument. Sox fans have been whining about the "Evil Empire" because of their financial might for decades, now it's not that important? Come on.

[Old Red]

IT didn't "just help". Lack of luxury tax and free-roam access to international players shaped the league for years. The Yankees built a dynasty off of it. Don't downplay this fact because it suits your argument. Sox fans have been whining about the "Evil Empire" because of their financial might for decades, now it's not that important? Come on.

 

What does that have to do with what WL records made the playoffs, or not? You still haven’t answered the question on how many more times would the Red Sox have made the playoffs if the setup had been the same back then as it is today?

[Hugh2]

The problem they have is that the entire standings in the AL Central can be re-arranged if anyone goes on a 4 game winning streak.

 

If the White Sox feel they are out of it, Giolito is a free agent and could go first. They’d probably have to be blown away to deal Anderson…

 

Anderson would cost a little more because he has an extra year of team control. I suppose the term "blown away" can be very subjective. He's going to cost more for the reasons I said, but it's not going to be an arm and a leg. I think someone like Yorke gets it done. And BTV has that as a HUGE overpay for the Sox, but I think realistically it's closer to fair.

[Old Red]

Interesting and nonsensical distinction…

 

Interesting yes. Sensical distinction also yes. I remember it well.

[Dipre]

What does that have to do with what WL records made the playoffs, or not? You still haven’t answered the question on how many more times would the Red Sox have made the playoffs if the setup had been the same back then as it is today?

 

What? The higher resource teams had better teams, therefore made the playoffs ahead of team with less resources.

[Old Red]

How many of those "non-losing seasons" between '67 and '04 resulted in playoff berths? More importantly, how many of them resulted in championships?

 

This is what we are talking about. How many more times would the Red Sox have made the playoffs in those years if the Wildcard setup today would have been the same as back then. No Championships we’re won, but as I’ve stated many times before none of the teams that did win Championships had to face a

Bob Gibson, knock off the running three time champion A’s in 1975, or face the Big Red Machine?

[redsoxrules]

Between 1967 and 2003 the Red Sox made the playoffs 9 times with 0 championships. That means the Red Sox were making the playoffs at a clip of about once every four seasons, and never won a championship.

 

Back then only 2 teams each league made the playoffs. We can't use this as an example. Right now 5 teams per league make the playoffs. It's a huge difference

[Dipre]

Back then only 2 teams each league made the playoffs. We can't use this as an example. Right now 5 teams per league make the playoffs. It's a huge difference

 

Yes we can. There was no salary cap, and free access to international players. Even with the 5 team WC format "Large market teams" had a way bigger advantage then than they do now. And on another point, a lot of those Sox teams were just bad. If you put lipstick on a pig, it's still a pig.

[Dipre]

This is what we are talking about. How many more times would the Red Sox have made the playoffs in those years if the Wildcard setup today would have been the same as back then. No Championships we’re won, but as I’ve stated many times before none of the teams that did win Championships had to face a

Bob Gibson, knock off the running three time champion A’s in 1975, or face the Big Red Machine?

 

The 2004 Red Sox came back from a 3-0 deficit to win it all. Much more impressive than anything else ever done in baseball for that matter.

[Old Red]

Yes we can. There was no salary cap, and free access to international players. Even with the 5 team WC format "Large market teams" had a way bigger advantage then than they do now. And on another point, a lot of those Sox teams were just bad. If you put lipstick on a pig, it's still a pig.

No we can’t! Salary cap had Nothing to do with how many teams made the playoffs.International players had nothing to do with how many teams made the playoffs. Large, and small market teams had nothing to do with how many teams made the playoffs.

[Old Red]

The 2004 Red Sox came back from a 3-0 deficit to win it all. Much more impressive than anything else ever done in baseball for that matter.

 

Yes it was impressive, but still they didn’t have to face a Bob Gibson, a three time running champion Oakland A’s, or the Big Red Machine. Beating them would have been impressive.

[Dipre]

No we can’t! Salary cap had Nothing to do with how many teams made the playoffs.International players had nothing to do with how many teams made the playoffs. Large, and small market teams had nothing to do with how many teams made the playoffs.

 

Let me run it back so we understand each other. While there were fewer teams that made the playoffs, teams that had more money had a bigger advantage regardless. That's what I'm trying to say. You spent big, you won big.

[Dipre]

Yes it was impressive, but still they didn’t have to face a Bob Gibson, a three time running champion Oakland A’s, or the Big Red Machine. Beating them would have been impressive.

 

Lots of excuses for 36 years of futility.

[notin]

Back then only 2 teams each league made the playoffs. We can't use this as an example. Right now 5 teams per league make the playoffs. It's a huge difference

 

Yes and no.

 

Certainly when only one team made it it was tougher. But bear in mind also it was an 8 team league (except from 1961-1969, when it was 10). Now it’s a 15 team league, so even with more teams getting it, more teams also still miss the postseason…

[Old Red]

Lots of excuses for 36 years of futility.

 

I would call Bob Gibson, a three time running champion A’s that the Red Sox had to knock off just to get to face the BIG Red Machine as legitimate reasons, and not excuses. At least back in those days.

[Old Red]

Let me run it back so we understand each other. While there were fewer teams that made the playoffs, teams that had more money had a bigger advantage regardless. That's what I'm trying to say. You spent big, you won big.

I get all of that, but that had NOTHING to do with how many teams made the playoffs, and that has been my point all along, and now you finally admitted there were fewer teams that made the playoffs then. Finally!

[Maxbialystock]

I’m sure John Henry wants Bloom to put together a losing, last place in the Div team, and a team that doesn’t make the postseason, so if he was hired to create a sustainable contender it must be a contender for last place, and that’s he’s successful.

 

Oh, just stop it. The AL East right now is the winningest division in the history of MLB divisions. The Sox are last, but also in contention for a wild card.

 

Not that there aren’t some real disappointments with the Sox—like Devers, Sale injury, Story injury, Duvall injury, Chang injury, Kluber, Pivetta, Kike, etc.

 

On the other hand, 4 decent freaking starters emerging in Bello, Whitlock, Houck, and Paxton. Plus a bullpen. When Yoshida is DH, the outfield defense is pretty decent. I also like both catchers (but prefer Wong). Infield defense, however, is sucky.

[mvp 78]

Lots of excuses for 36 years of futility.

 

The 2004 Sox didn't have to go against a coked up Doc Gooden!

[Old Red]

Oh, just stop it. The AL East right now is the winningest division in the history of MLB divisions. The Sox are last, but also in contention for a wild card.

 

Not that there aren’t some real disappointments with the Sox—like Devers, Sale injury, Story injury, Duvall injury, Chang injury, Kluber, Pivetta, Kike, etc.

 

On the other hand, 4 decent freaking starters emerging in Bello, Whitlock, Houck, and Paxton. Plus a bullpen. When Yoshida is DH, the outfield defense is pretty decent. I also like both catchers (but prefer Wong). Infield defense, however, is sucky.

 

Stop, before you even start. The Red Sox are a losing team. I repeat a losing team, who couldn’t beat a losing Cardinal team when they came into Boston, lost to a losing Cincinnati team when they came into Boston, and so far have lost to a losing Colorado team against the great Connor Seabold, so save the excuses of what division they are in, and have been in since the divisions are invented.

[moonslav59]

We can analyze Bloom's moves to death, and we'll continue to do so, but the bottom line is he's put together 2 sub-.500 teams in a row.

 

Very true, and to me, what were the expectations and contexts involved?

 

I expected an improving team, and most us records as the final indication. Nothing wrong with that.

 

I see a farm and budget vastly improved for the future.

I see a deeper team with less black holes than we've had since 2018.

I see a team just a couple big acquisitions away from being a top 6 contender.

 

After the mandated Betts/Price deal and massive budget cuts, I saw a long road ahead of us.

 

Others did not or would not accept the situation handed to Bloom.

 

Certainly, beginning with the Story signing, we've had the budget and a bit more help from the farm than we had since 2018, so I am not happy about the record, now, either.

 

There is still over 90 games to go, so let's see what happens.

[moonslav59]

It may not be his idea, but he's a big part of how we got here. He could have prevented it by signing Iglesias or whoever you prefer. Chaim thought it would be more fun to try stuff with what we already had.

 

He thought Chang would do, and he might have been better than Iggy, but once Chang got hurt, why give up?

 

I agree.

 

Mondesi is pipe dream. Story is still a month away, at best.

[moonslav59]

Yes, we can all make up our own scenarios.

 

But what sense did it make to spend on the back end of the bullpen if they weren't expecting to contend this year?

 

What sense did it make to sign Story for $140 mill if the first few years of that were expected to be losing seasons?

 

However you look at it, it seems like a half-ass job.

 

I think the idea was to contend for a playoffs slot, not a ring, and give the impression we were on the rise.

 

It's funny to think that if Nate, Wacha, Hill, Strahm and JD were sucking, right now, the narrative would be much different.

[moonslav59]

Spare me the hyperbole. The point is simple, they want a competitive team on the field, but they also want to avoid lux tax issues and to build up the farm system, so they can spend big on the players they want to spend on, while injecting the team with players from the farm. The problem is that the competitive team part has been grossly mismanaged by Bloom. No one is denying that.

 

It's not easy building up a farm, these days, either. Going over the tax line hurt, too.

 

As much as our farm looks much better, it is just on paper, and we have a long way to go to get near where TBR, BAL and other winning teams had and/or still have.

 

Had we switched 2021 with 2023, I doubt anyone would be complaining, but the record shows we are not getting better. That hurts.

[moonslav59]

...and there again is that name - Dombrowski. Time to let it all go.

 

You have a good point, and all Bloom has left from DD is Sale, in terms of budget drains, but neglecting to acknowledge the massive change in directives from the top is hanging onto a lop-sided notion or reality.

[moonslav59]

But that's not how it works unfortunately.

 

1 year means expectations should have been we win in 2020. This is so comical: it is beyond words.

[moonslav59]

The Sox did nothing but suck for decades on end. They win a couple championships (under this ownership group, no less), and now anything less than 180MM payrolls and yearly playoff berths will suffice.

 

Spoiled.

[Old Red]

The 2004 Sox didn't have to go against a coked up Doc Gooden!

 

Or a Ron Guidry.

[mvp 78]

Or a Ron Guidry.

 

A nobody.

[Old Red]

Spoiled.

 

Not spoiled at all. As we’ve seen this year again some teams that have spent mega bucks is not translating over to the playing field, and the standings. Better decisions with better results is what the fans want. The Red Sox FO said they all failed last year, which was one of the things they were actually honest about for how the season ended up.

[moonslav59]

They also didn't have luxury tax, international players could be signed pretty much freely, and teams had a lot more control over their players. Let's not make excuses for crap teams.

 

Drafting "unsignable players," late in the early rounds was also a huge advantage to big spending teams.

 

The situation is much different, now. It is much harder to build a strong farm, especially if you are winning and/or spending over the line.

 

That's not to say it is impossible, but only a handful of teams have done it on a consistent basis, since the rule changes.