Fire Bloom .

[Bellhorn04]

No Kike was not overpaid last ear, but was he overpaid this year? I’m not against bringing Kike back, but I think $10M is to much money when there will be lots of holes to plug with the money they have to spend, and lord forbid we don’t want JH to pay anymore of that dreaded tax.

 

We badly need a good fielding center fielder. Kike fills that bill. It's pretty simple.

[mvp 78]

No Kike was not overpaid last ear, but was he overpaid this year? I’m not against bringing Kike back, but I think $10M is to much money when there will be lots of holes to plug with the money they have to spend, and lord forbid we don’t want JH to pay anymore of that dreaded tax.

 

You can't fill those holes cheaply. That's what you do if you are dumpster diving. Are you calling for dumpster diving? If there are lots of holes, not every hole is going to be filled with a 20M player. Filling them with Kiké's are your best bet. Aren't you the guy that says Henry should pay whatever in payroll? Who cares if he's overpaying for Kiké then? Who cares if he goes over the luxury tax? It shouldn't matter to you?

[Old Red]

You can't fill those holes cheaply. That's what you do if you are dumpster diving. Are you calling for dumpster diving? If there are lots of holes, not every hole is going to be filled with a 20M player. Filling them with Kiké's are your best bet. Aren't you the guy that says Henry should pay whatever in payroll? Who cares if he's overpaying for Kiké then? Who cares if he goes over the luxury tax? It shouldn't matter to you?

So Kike was dumpster diving when they signed him in the first place?

[mvp 78]

Why you only limiting it to FA OF? I said all of baseball.

 

That's a hole they need to fill. They filled it with Kiké. Which everyday player FA are you going to pick up that is cheaper than 10M then to fill one of the holes? And why couldn't the Sox still pick them up? They are letting JD walk. Couldn't they use JD money to pick your guy up?

[mvp 78]

So Kike was dumpster diving when they signed him in the first place?

 

No, you said Kiké was expensive. How is that dumpster diving? Do you know what dumpster diving is?

[Old Red]

We badly need a good fielding center fielder. Kike fills that bill. It's pretty simple.

 

I never said he wasn’t a good fielding CF, but I just can’t believe he is the best available player out there in all of baseball for $10M, or less.

[Old Red]

No, you said Kiké was expensive. How is that dumpster diving? Do you know what dumpster diving is?

 

All I’m saying he’s not worth $10 M, and that’s just my opinion. You have a different opinion, so we disagree.

[mvp 78]

All I’m saying he’s not worth $10 M, and that’s just my opinion. You have a different opinion, so we disagree.

 

How much do you think he would have signed for on the open market if the Red Sox didn't offer him a contract?

[Old Red]

That's a hole they need to fill. They filled it with Kiké. Which everyday player FA are you going to pick up that is cheaper than 10M then to fill one of the holes? And why couldn't the Sox still pick them up? They are letting JD walk. Couldn't they use JD money to pick your guy up?

 

So said how good Kike was last year, but he has sucked this year from Day 1, and yes before he was hurt, and he has sucked since he’s been back, and you want to give him a raise?

[Old Red]

How much do you think he would have signed for on the open market if the Red Sox didn't offer him a contract?

 

I would have let him walk to find out just like I would have Vaz, and JD, and Evol. I’m still stuck on this Kike is the best available player out there for $10M.

[mvp 78]

I would have let him walk to find out just like I would have Vaz, and JD, and Evol. I’m still stuck on this Kike is the best available player out there for $10M.

 

Who said he's the best available 10M player? This isn't the argument anyone is making except yourself.

 

What do you think he'd get on the open market?

[mvp 78]

So said how good Kike was last year, but he has sucked this year from Day 1, and yes before he was hurt, and he has sucked since he’s been back, and you want to give him a raise?

 

From Day 1?

 

Kiké has a 107 wRC+ since coming back from the IL in August.

 

260 BA

730 OPS

 

Extrapolated over a full season that'd be 11 HR, 85 RBI, 85 R for you old school guys.

[Old Red]

Who said he's the best available 10M player? This isn't the argument anyone is making except yourself.

 

What do you think he'd get on the open market?

Then why would you sign someone for $10M if he wasn’t the best option out there? I guess I’m just stuck on that point.

[Hugh2]

No Kike was not overpaid last ear, but was he overpaid this year? I’m not against bringing Kike back, but I think $10M is to much money when there will be lots of holes to plug with the money they have to spend, and lord forbid we don’t want JH to pay anymore of that dreaded tax.

 

Ok, but we needed a CFer and a RFer, and still need another outfielder. So if 10 million is too much for Kike, and we are "cost conscious" here, what would a better move have been??? Anyone better than Kike is going to be asking for more per year and more in years. He's being paid to be a 1.5 WAR player, which if he's healthy he will easily be.

[Old Red]

From Day 1?

 

Now you know I don’t know what any of that means, but to you he’s good, and I just disagree. Different opinions, and neither is going to change. We disagree, and that’s fine with me.

[Old Red]

Ok, but we needed a CFer and a RFer, and still need another outfielder. So if 10 million is too much for Kike, and we are "cost conscious" here, what would a better move have been??? Anyone better than Kike is going to be asking for more per year and more in years. He's being paid to be a 1.5 WAR player, which if he's healthy he will easily be.

Still the same point that to me there just has to be someone out there who is better than Kike that you could get for $10M, or less. If not then MLB is in bad shape.

[moonslav59]

You are really going to count that as a contract offer that you have trashed yourself?

 

My point was we made an offer, and it was a raise. Apparently, the Bogey camp made no counter offer, so it didn't go anywhere.

 

I only said they offered Bogey a contract, first. I didn't get into which was a bigger lowball offer. (I'd have given Kike $25M/3, so maybe I'm trashing his offer, too.)

[moonslav59]

Imagine that in all of baseball there is no one out there that the Red Sox could have gotten for $10M, or less that would be better than Kike.Wow!

 

Name one.

[moonslav59]

Kike's defense never sucks. His offensive numbers are substandard, but he does have 40 RBI in 79 games, and we all know he can get hot any time.

 

Not sure why you have it in for this guy.

 

Kike is an outstanding defensive CF and a plus defender at 2B. He's decent at SS, too.

 

His offense has not been very consistent from year-to-year as well as within a season, but he compares pretty well with the average offense of CF'ers and 2Bmen.

 

2018-2022 (500+ PAs)

 

He ranks 23rd out of 51 in CF OPS at .742.

 

He ranks 25th out of 58 at 2B OPS.

 

He nearly single-handedly got us to the World Series, last year.

 

1-3 w BB v NYY in play-in game

1.329 OPS v TBR (2 HR & 6 RBI)

1.254 OPS v HOU (3 HR, 2B, 3B)

 

At $7M x 2, he was worth every penny he made and deserved $10M/1 or MORE!

[Old Red]

My point was we made an offer, and it was a raise. Apparently, the Bogey camp made no counter offer, so it didn't go anywhere.

 

I only said they offered Bogey a contract, first. I didn't get into which was a bigger lowball offer. (I'd have given Kike $25M/3, so maybe I'm trashing his offer, too.)

 

What did you say about the Bogey offer when it was first made before the season even started?

[moonslav59]

Still the same point that to me there just has to be someone out there who is better than Kike that you could get for $10M, or less. If not then MLB is in bad shape.

 

If there are so many, name one.

[moonslav59]

What did you say about the Bogey offer when it was first made before the season even started?

 

I trashed it, like I just said.

 

I also think the $10M/1 deal to Kike was a lowball offer, but not to the same extend Bogey's was.

 

My point was they offered Bogey an offer first. You asked "How do you know?"

 

Now, you accept they did but are turning the argument into something we both agree on. Bogey was low-balled. I thought Bogey deserved $150M/6, but maybe $144/6 ($24M x 6) would have been a fair offer. Apparently, hey offered him $90M/4 ($22.5M x 4.)

 

I think Kike was worth $25M/3 and they offered $10M/1.

 

What is there an argument, here?

Edited September 21, 2022 by moonslav59

[Old Red]

I trashed it, like I just said.

 

So why are you counting a non legit contract offer now?

[Old Red]

Kike's defense never sucks. His offensive numbers are substandard, but he does have 40 RBI in 79 games, and we all know he can get hot any time.

 

Not sure why you have it in for this guy.

You interpret as not rating Kike as highly as some of you as having it in for him. I don’t think he had the best year on D for a CF I have ever seen a Red Sox CF have like Moon, and I don’t think he is any kind of playoff hero like others have, and I have said he’s a good defensive CF, whom I didn’t think was worth $10M, so if that to you is having it in for a guy then so be it, and I’m guilty. Either way my opinion has, and will not change.

[Old Red]

If there are so many, name one.

 

You are the stat guy, and I’m sure if you really wanted to find one, or some you could, but seeing it’s Kike you wouldn’t even try, and that’s all right to.

[Old Red]

Kike is an outstanding defensive CF and a plus defender at 2B. He's decent at SS, too.

 

His offense has not been very consistent from year-to-year as well as within a season, but he compares pretty well with the average offense of CF'ers and 2Bmen.

 

2018-2022 (500+ PAs)

 

He ranks 23rd out of 51 in CF OPS at .742.

 

He ranks 25th out of 58 at 2B OPS.

 

He nearly single-handedly got us to the World Series, last year.

 

1-3 w BB v NYY in play-in game

1.329 OPS v TBR (2 HR & 6 RBI)

1.254 OPS v HOU (3 HR, 2B, 3B)

 

At $7M x 2, he was worth every penny he made and deserved $10M/1 or MORE!

We’ve gone over this 100 times too. To me Kike is a good utility guy, who is good at different positions, but plays full time for the Red Sox, because they have NO ONE better. If Duran had worked out in CF do you think Kike would have been resigned for $10M? Once again I’m not saying Kike is bad, but I certainly don’t rate him as highly as you. We disagree, and there is nothing wrong with that.

[dgalehouse]

Teasing, or Pleasing?

 

15 games left, but things are tightening.

 

3 games from 500

 

4 games from getting out of last place in the Div.

 

1 easy game left before back to playing the bullies from the Div.

 

It looks like some of the wild card contenders are seeing their collars get a little tighter. I can't throw in the towel just yet. Stay tuned.

[Bellhorn04]

We’ve gone over this 100 times too. To me Kike is a good utility guy, who is good at different positions, but plays full time for the Red Sox, because they have NO ONE better. If Duran had worked out in CF do you think Kike would have been resigned for $10M? Once again I’m not saying Kike is bad, but I certainly don’t rate him as highly as you. We disagree, and there is nothing wrong with that.

 

One year, $10 million contracts do not get you a star player these days.

 

Remember that after 2018 Dombrowski signed Steve Pearce to a one year, $6.25 million contract. Pearce was a non-full time player, decent hitter with a career OPS of .772 who was slightly minus on defense. That's sort of a starting point for what you get. I'd say Kike was worth $3.75 million more than that, when you throw in a little adjustment for inflation. No matter what, it's not a blatant overpay.

[Hugh2]

Still the same point that to me there just has to be someone out there who is better than Kike that you could get for $10M, or less. If not then MLB is in bad shape.

 

So now Bloom bad because he couldn't pay hypothetical guy? Just name one guy? Almost NO ONE is bashing the Kike deal. You want an upgrade? you will pay 2X to 4X that amount if you're rolling Nimmo/Judge out there and that eats up all your budget. Not great, just ok starters are getting 10-15 million per year easily. Last year 1 WAR averaged 5.9 million in salaries which go up about 10% yearly which if holds true means 1 WAR gets you 6.5 next year. This makes Kike worth the following in years past.

 

2022 $5.85 million

2021 $31.85 million

2020 $7.15 million

2019 $13 million

2018 $22.75 million

 

 

So if he as a good year, it's an insanely awesome deal, if he is injured for 1/2 the year it's an overpay of $4-$5 million dollars. If there's a better option out there for 10 million. I'm all ears.

[harmony]

If there are so many, name one.

Don't look too far.

 

FWIW last offseason Tommy Pham was a 33-year-old outfielder who had posted 15.9 fWAR in 732 career games when Pham signed a one-year, $7.5 million contract with the Cincinnati Reds.

 

Kiki Hernandez is a 31-year-old utility player who has posted 12.3 fWAR in 903 career games.

 

This season Hernandez has posted 0.4 fWAR in 79 games while Pham has posted 1.0 fWAR in 132 games.

 

FWIW