10/8 ALDS Game 2 @ Rays

[Fan_since_Boggs]

I would think that Rodriquez pitches on Monday. If the series goes to 5 games, some combination of Sale and Houck for game 5.

 

The Red Sox can definitely win this series if Eavoldi shows up big time in game 3. If the Red Sox win game 3, you would think that one of the two--E-Rod or Sale--will have a comeback game and pitch well. But expecting both of them to do it is probably a long shot.

[jacksonianmarch]

Didn't see the game, but it doesn't seem like you can blame 14 runs on some "errors" however major by a manager.

 

It was a two run game when Cash brough in his mop up guy

[Bellhorn04]

It was a two run game when Cash brough in his mop up guy

 

Yes, I think you have somewhat of a point about the oddity of bringing in Wacha there. With a day off today, why not use some better relievers to try to keep it close?

[jacksonianmarch]

Yes, I think you have somewhat of a point about the oddity of bringing in Wacha there. With a day off today, why not use some better relievers to try to keep it close?

 

Exactly, he punted the game

[Maxbialystock]

I would think that Rodriquez pitches on Monday. If the series goes to 5 games, some combination of Sale and Houck for game 5.

 

The Red Sox can definitely win this series if Eavoldi shows up big time in game 3. If the Red Sox win game 3, you would think that one of the two--E-Rod or Sale--will have a comeback game and pitch well. But expecting both of them to do it is probably a long shot.

 

Right now I would start Barnes before Sale. ERod is the only one among Eovaldi, Sale, Houck, Pivetta, and ERod--who can reasonably start game 4. Depending on how he does and how well the Sox are hitting--they will again be facing McClanahan--Houck could be used to win game 4. If game 4 is like game 1, then I think Houck starts game 5.

 

Sale has now had two consecutive flameouts--last Sunday vs. the Nats, a weak-hitting team, and last night against the Rays--in two season-defining games. He has never excelled in the postseason, and this year and especially lately he is struggling. His speed is down and his changeup is completely unreliable--and opposing lineups know it.

[Maxbialystock]

Yes, I think you have somewhat of a point about the oddity of bringing in Wacha there. With a day off today, why not use some better relievers to try to keep it close?

 

On Oct 3 Wacha started vs. the Yankees and gave up 0 runs in 5 innings. His ERA in September was 3.60 in 5 starts vs the Astros (0 runs in 5 innings), twice vs the Jays (1 run in 3 innings and 6 runs in 6 innings), the Tigers (1 run in 5 innings), and the Twins (2 runs in 6 innings).

[5GoldGlovesOF,75]

Exactly, he punted the game

 

Partially. But after Thursday's shutout, the Rays probably thought anyone on their staff had pretty much had their way with Boston the second half of the season.

 

Bottom line is Cash knows Sunday is a bullpen game -- starting Rasmussen, another rookie and twice-thru-the-order guy -- and wanted to save his best relievers, Kittredge and Fairbanks. It should be a must-win for Tampa, because if they face elimination at Fenway on Monday, all they have left is yet another rookie, Patino, or Flemming, who the Sox bombed for 10 runs in August when they hung a 20-spot on the Rays.

[Maxbialystock]

Didn't see the game, but it doesn't seem like you can blame 14 runs on some "errors" however major by a manager.

 

Good point. I like jacksonianmarch's analysis, but 14 runs can't all be blamed on the manager.

 

I might add that, down 5-2 after 1 inning, Cora did not hesitate to pull the late, great Sale, and bring in his very best long reliever who has been amazing in October. He decided on the spur of the moment that this game, despite being down 5-2, was winnable and, really, needed to be won.

 

Let's not forget that jacksonianmarch started a thread naming Cora his manager of the year in the AL and that on that thread most talksoxers said Cash is better.

 

Right now I'm thinking Cora is better. The Rays not only won 100 games, but did not have to use their ace in the wild card game as Cora did. So game 1 was a hope pass with ERod starting, and of course he lived down to our expectations, and the Rays pitching was superb. And, to rub things in, Arozarena stole home in the 7th when he saw Devers was shifted by Cora and was nowhere near 3b, thus allowing Arozarena to grab an insane lead.

[Thunder]

I would think that Rodriquez pitches on Monday. If the series goes to 5 games, some combination of Sale and Houck for game 5.

 

The Red Sox can definitely win this series if Eavoldi shows up big time in game 3. If the Red Sox win game 3, you would think that one of the two--E-Rod or Sale--will have a comeback game and pitch well. But expecting both of them to do it is probably a long shot.

 

In that scenario, E-Rod pitching game 4 and having a bounce back game would be ideal, because then Sale/Houck and Eovaldi could both potentially pitch twice in the ALCS

[Maxbialystock]

In that scenario, E-Rod pitching game 4 and having a bounce back game would be ideal, because then Sale/Houck and Eovaldi could both potentially pitch twice in the ALCS

 

I think Houck starts game 5 and Sale is in the bullpen. It's crunch time and the rule of recency takes over. Sale stunk last Sunday vs. the Nats and again last night. He ain't starting again in the ALDS. His changeup has disappeared, and his fastball and slider aren't good enough to carry him through 5 innings. In his last two starts combined he lasted 3.1 innings.

[Maxbialystock]

Partially. But after Thursday's shutout, the Rays probably thought anyone on their staff had pretty much had their way with Boston the second half of the season.

 

Bottom line is Cash knows Sunday is a bullpen game -- starting Rasmussen, another rookie and twice-thru-the-order guy -- and wanted to save his best relievers, Kittredge and Fairbanks. It should be a must-win for Tampa, because if they face elimination at Fenway on Monday, all they have left is yet another rookie, Patino, or Flemming, who the Sox bombed for 10 runs in August when they hung a 20-spot on the Rays.

 

Interesting. Sunday is Eovaldi for the Sox and he has been great in 3 starts against the Rays at Fenway. He stunk in his only start at the Trop. Baseball being what it is, I would never say the Rays can't win against Eovaldi on Sunday, but on paper it sure looks as though Cash should have tried harder last night when he had 5-2 lead after the 1st inning.

 

In other words, jacksonianmarch is dead right. Cash should have gone with his best guys for--wait for it--their second game in a row after three freaking days off.

 

Cora simply outmanaged him. And let's not forget that the Rays came into the ALDS with huge advantages. 100 wins. Better pitching (by a bunch) and better hitting. Home field. And, best of all, no wild card game in which their ace was used to beat the Yankees.

[Maxbialystock]

Exactly, he punted the game

 

Target hit! See just above for my new version of why you're right.

[moonslav59]

Right now I would start Barnes before Sale. ERod is the only one among Eovaldi, Sale, Houck, Pivetta, and ERod--who can reasonably start game 4. Depending on how he does and how well the Sox are hitting--they will again be facing McClanahan--Houck could be used to win game 4. If game 4 is like game 1, then I think Houck starts game 5.

 

Sale has now had two consecutive flameouts--last Sunday vs. the Nats, a weak-hitting team, and last night against the Rays--in two season-defining games. He has never excelled in the postseason, and this year and especially lately he is struggling. His speed is down and his changeup is completely unreliable--and opposing lineups know it.

 

A few things on Sale:

 

I have lost confidence, too, so I'm not arguing pitching him game 4 or 5.

 

His 6 BBs in his last 13 IP of the regular season were telling. He had 6 BBs in his first 30 IP of 2021.

 

What seems strange to me is the K numbers. Every out in that game vs the Nats was a K (7 out of 7 outs.). The last 2 games of the 2019 season- before his surgery- he K'd 25 in 14.2 IP. That one lone start he got in AUG of 2018, he K'd 12 in 5 IP (0 BB). I'm not sure where I'm going with this, but it seems like something is mixed up. Maybe he's trying too hard for the K, and bad things happen.

 

Sale had a 4.97 ERA over his last 3 games of 2021. While that is not good, it is better than some other choices, and he was yanked very early vs the Nats (2 ER in 2.1 IP). While there is no sugar coating that start, I'm not sure we can read too much into it, by itself. It's the next start right afterwards that blew my confidence in him out of the water. That was just scary bad. The 2Ks in 3 outs could not put a dent in the fact that he sucked.

 

Now, the whole sucks in the playoffs thing. Yes, he has declined at the ends of most of his seasons, and that raises durability and stamina issues, but that should not be in play, this year. He also only started 4 playoff games, before this year, so I'm not sure we can read too much into that, since his "bad playoff numbers" were highly influenced by his first playoff series in 2017 (9.2 IP 9 ER). in 2018, he pitched 15.1 IP, some in relief as most Sox starters did that year, and allowed just 11 hits. The 8 BBs were bad, but once again we see a very high K rate of 24Ks in 15.1 IP. That's 14 K/9 IP. Once again, I ask, is he trying to K batters too much in big games? The 7 ERs allowed in those 15.1 IP amounts to a 4.11 ERA, which does not look great, but certainly is not bad, when you figure those games were against the Yanks, Astros and Dodgers.

 

Again, I'm not defending Sale, but I'm not going to definitively judge him based on 5 playoff starts.

[moonslav59]

Exactly, he punted the game

 

That's not even close to being true.

[notin]

That’s it… pour it on. 14-6 SoX

 

ALWAYS pour it on. I never understood those “save some for tomorrow” people.

 

1. That’s not possible

2. Pouring it on makes the bullpen throw more pitches, which is the only way to impact tomorrow’s game today…

[notin]

Exactly, he punted the game

 

It was 8-6 in the 7th inning when Wacha came in. That’s like punting on 3rd and 2…

[YastrzemskI]

Exactly, he punted the game

 

If he did in fact then I would be furious if I were a Rays fan. As it stands.. don’t care.

[Maxbialystock]

A few things on Sale:

 

I have lost confidence, too, so I'm not arguing pitching him game 4 or 5.

 

His 6 BBs in his last 13 IP of the regular season were telling. He had 6 BBs in his first 30 IP of 2021.

 

What seems strange to me is the K numbers. Every out in that game vs the Nats was a K (7 out of 7 outs.). The last 2 games of the 2019 season- before his surgery- he K'd 25 in 14.2 IP. That one lone start he got in AUG of 2018, he K'd 12 in 5 IP (0 BB). I'm not sure where I'm going with this, but it seems like something is mixed up. Maybe he's trying too hard for the K, and bad things happen.

 

Sale had a 4.97 ERA over his last 3 games of 2021. While that is not good, it is better than some other choices, and he was yanked very early vs the Nats (2 ER in 2.1 IP). While there is no sugar coating that start, I'm not sure we can read too much into it, by itself. It's the next start right afterwards that blew my confidence in him out of the water. That was just scary bad. The 2Ks in 3 outs could not put a dent in the fact that he sucked.

 

Now, the whole sucks in the playoffs thing. Yes, he has declined at the ends of most of his seasons, and that raises durability and stamina issues, but that should not be in play, this year. He also only started 4 playoff games, before this year, so I'm not sure we can read too much into that, since his "bad playoff numbers" were highly influenced by his first playoff series in 2017 (9.2 IP 9 ER). in 2018, he pitched 15.1 IP, some in relief as most Sox starters did that year, and allowed just 11 hits. The 8 BBs were bad, but once again we see a very high K rate of 24Ks in 15.1 IP. That's 14 K/9 IP. Once again, I ask, is he trying to K batters too much in big games? The 7 ERs allowed in those 15.1 IP amounts to a 4.11 ERA, which does not look great, but certainly is not bad, when you figure those games were against the Yanks, Astros and Dodgers.

 

Again, I'm not defending Sale, but I'm not going to definitively judge him based on 5 playoff starts.

 

Well reasoned. I'm arguing from a sense of disappointment in Sale overall. He is the very model of an ace--very professional, great presence on the mound, good command, and good stuff-- but to me he has not delivered, especially late in the season, the way other Sox aces have. Your point about his K's is fascinating--especially the Nats game last Sunday.

 

I'm convinced he's lost his changeup, which gets him down to just two pitches, four seamer and slider, against all those righty bats.

[Old Red]

A few things on Sale:

 

I have lost confidence, too, so I'm not arguing pitching him game 4 or 5.

 

His 6 BBs in his last 13 IP of the regular season were telling. He had 6 BBs in his first 30 IP of 2021.

 

What seems strange to me is the K numbers. Every out in that game vs the Nats was a K (7 out of 7 outs.). The last 2 games of the 2019 season- before his surgery- he K'd 25 in 14.2 IP. That one lone start he got in AUG of 2018, he K'd 12 in 5 IP (0 BB). I'm not sure where I'm going with this, but it seems like something is mixed up. Maybe he's trying too hard for the K, and bad things happen.

 

Sale had a 4.97 ERA over his last 3 games of 2021. While that is not good, it is better than some other choices, and he was yanked very early vs the Nats (2 ER in 2.1 IP). While there is no sugar coating that start, I'm not sure we can read too much into it, by itself. It's the next start right afterwards that blew my confidence in him out of the water. That was just scary bad. The 2Ks in 3 outs could not put a dent in the fact that he sucked.

 

Now, the whole sucks in the playoffs thing. Yes, he has declined at the ends of most of his seasons, and that raises durability and stamina issues, but that should not be in play, this year. He also only started 4 playoff games, before this year, so I'm not sure we can read too much into that, since his "bad playoff numbers" were highly influenced by his first playoff series in 2017 (9.2 IP 9 ER). in 2018, he pitched 15.1 IP, some in relief as most Sox starters did that year, and allowed just 11 hits. The 8 BBs were bad, but once again we see a very high K rate of 24Ks in 15.1 IP. That's 14 K/9 IP. Once again, I ask, is he trying to K batters too much in big games? The 7 ERs allowed in those 15.1 IP amounts to a 4.11 ERA, which does not look great, but certainly is not bad, when you figure those games were against the Yanks, Astros and Dodgers.

 

Again, I'm not defending Sale, but I'm not going to definitively judge him based on 5 playoff starts.

 

 

Right now I’m only judging Sale on his last two games, and I’ve seen enough for him not to start again in this series.

[Maxbialystock]

Right now I’m only judging Sale on his last two games, and I’ve seen enough for him not to start again in this series.

 

I doubt that anyone on talksox wants Sale to start game 5.

[moonslav59]

Well reasoned. I'm arguing from a sense of disappointment in Sale overall. He is the very model of an ace--very professional, great presence on the mound, good command, and good stuff-- but to me he has not delivered, especially late in the season, the way other Sox aces have. Your point about his K's is fascinating--especially the Nats game last Sunday.

 

I'm convinced he's lost his changeup, which gets him down to just two pitches, four seamer and slider, against all those righty bats.

 

Well said.

 

I would not start Sale game 4 or 5.

 

I might try him in relief in a low leverage situation, if we get one.

[moonslav59]

I doubt that anyone on talksox wants Sale to start game 5.

 

Maybe the Yankee fan or Storktroll.

[jad]

Oh yeah, the manager punted. Happens all the time, especially in 5-game series. One game? Doesn't mean crap when you only have to win 3. If it were 7 games, doubtless he would have punted two or three.

[Maxbialystock]

Oh yeah, the manager punted. Happens all the time, especially in 5-game series. One game? Doesn't mean crap when you only have to win 3. If it were 7 games, doubtless he would have punted two or three.

 

I think you are exaggerating, but I agree with the premise that normally, usually you don't want to give away games in the playoffs.

 

That said, however, in 2007 Francona sort of did that. The Sox were down 2-1 to the Guardians in the ALCS, and there were those who said he should start his ace, Beckett in game 4 with just 4 days rest. But Francona reasoned that, since a game 5 was guaranteed, he would rather let Beckett start game 5 fully rested. The Sox did in fact lose game 4, went down 3-1 to the Guardians, and still pulled out the ALCS by winning three straight.

[jad]

I think you are exaggerating, but I agree with the premise that normally, usually you don't want to give away games in the playoffs.

 

That said, however, in 2007 Francona sort of did that. The Sox were down 2-1 to the Guardians in the ALCS, and there were those who said he should start his ace, Beckett in game 4 with just 4 days rest. But Francona reasoned that, since a game 5 was guaranteed, he would rather let Beckett start game 5 fully rested. The Sox did in fact lose game 4, went down 3-1 to the Guardians, and still pulled out the ALCS by winning three straight.

 

Of course! NO ONE 'punts' a game in a short series. Fans and fantasy players, maybe. But not pro athletes and managers.

[Bellhorn04]

Of course! NO ONE 'punts' a game in a short series. Fans and fantasy players, maybe. But not pro athletes and managers.

 

Cash didn't punt Game 2. But you might say he "threw in the towel" leaving Wacha in as long as he did.