9/29 SOX @ O's 7:05PM

[Bellhorn04]

That said, I also note with slightly muted glee that Cora brought in Vazquez to catch the 8th and 9th innings for the simple reason that overall he has been best with the bullpen.

 

You missed one small detail, Max. Cora pinch-hit Shaw for Plawecki, and Shaw drew a walk which enabled Verdugo's 2-run single.

 

Generally speaking, Cora is a fine in-game manager who usually knows what he's doing with each move.

[moonslav59]

 

That said, I also note with slightly muted glee that Cora brought in Vazquez to catch the 8th and 9th innings for the simple reason that overall he has been best with the bullpen.

 

 

They pinch hit Shaw for Plawecki, and that was likely the main reason Vaz came in after Eovaldi left.

[Bellhorn04]

They pinch hit Shaw for Plawecki, and that was likely the main reason Vaz came in after Eovaldi left.

 

Max is right about Vaz having much better numbers with the pen, though. So it was a win-win move by our razor-sharp manager.

[mvp 78]

We have all watched both pitchers this season. My opinion, which probably isn't worth much, is that Chris Sale is more professional and has better command, but Eovaldi simply has better stuff. Is it worth noting that DD acquired both pitchers?

 

I'm going to disagree about Sale's command right now. Eovaldi's seems to be better than Sale's right now.

[moonslav59]

Max is right about Vaz having much better numbers with the pen, though. So it was a win-win move by our razor-sharp manager.

 

1. It's not "much better," but yes, better.

2. It might not have been the main reason Vaz was brought in.

3. We PH for Plawecki.

[5GoldGlovesOF,75]

I'm going to disagree about Sale's command right now. Eovaldi's seems to be better than Sale's right now.

 

Pre-TJ: Sale at 100 mph with a killer slider was unhittable, while Eovaldi at 100 with two other pitches got barreled more.

 

Now: Sale at 93-96 is more vulnerable, while Eovaldi at 100 with four other pitches is hard to handle... for Orioles, Blue Jays, and Black Crowes.

[moonslav59]

I'm going to disagree about Sale's command right now. Eovaldi's seems to be better than Sale's right now.

 

Maybe the best chance to win one game would be an Eovaldi start and 6 IP and with Sale going 3 innings in relief.

[Bellhorn04]

1. It's not "much better," but yes, better.

2. It might not have been the main reason Vaz was brought in.

3. We PH for Plawecki.

 

I know we pinch-hit for Plawecki. I said that to Max right before you did. That's why I said win-win.

[moonslav59]

Pre-TJ: Sale at 100 mph with a killer slider was unhittable, while Eovaldi at 100 with two other pitches got barreled more.

 

Now: Sale at 93-96 is more vulnerable, while Eovaldi at 100 with four other pitches is hard to handle... for Orioles, Blue Jays, and Black Crowes.

 

Sale never hit 100 until 2018, and even then, it wasn't all that often. I wonder if throwing so much harder in 2018 was what caused the need for TJS.

 

Sale was a great pitcher from 204 to 2017. In those years, he averaged about 91-96 with 2017 being more like 94-97. His velocity, so far this year is very close to 2014-2017. One might expect it can gain some more by next season.

 

See the charts for yourself.. .

 

https://www.fangraphs.com/players/chris-sale/10603/graphs?pitchgraphs=true&statArr=&legend=1&split=base&time=daily&start=2014&end=2021&rtype=mult&gt1=15&dStatArray=FA&ymin=&ymax=

[mvp 78]

Pre-TJ: Sale at 100 mph with a killer slider was unhittable, while Eovaldi at 100 with two other pitches got barreled more.

 

Now: Sale at 93-96 is more vulnerable, while Eovaldi at 100 with four other pitches is hard to handle... for Orioles, Blue Jays, and Black Crowes.

 

This has nothing to do with command.

[Bellhorn04]

This has nothing to do with command.

 

I'm still not sure exactly what command is.

[5GoldGlovesOF,75]

This has nothing to do with command.

 

It totally does if the pitcher can throw his secondary stuff below the zone or off the corner. Ask Ottavino.

[moonslav59]

I know we pinch-hit for Plawecki. I said that to Max right before you did. That's why I said win-win.

 

I saw your post.

 

The choice might have been made for both reasons, but I think PH'ing was primary.

 

Here are the OPS Against numbers for our RP'er listed in order of most Relief IP:

Vaz/ Plawecki Pitcher (over 38 PAs, unless noted)

.590/.909 Whitlock

.667/.765 Ottavino

.773/.902 Sawamura (Plawecki just 18 PAs)

.583/ .828Barnes

.674/.640 Taylor

.742/.577DHern

.632/.596 Valdez

1.002/.675 Andriese

.669/.828 Robles (Plawecki just 30 PAs)

.599/.902 Rios (Plawecki just 17 PAs)

.850/.674 Richards (most as SP'er)

[SPLENDIDSPLINTER]

Pre-TJ: Sale at 100 mph with a killer slider was unhittable, while Eovaldi at 100 with two other pitches got barreled more.

 

Now: Sale at 93-96 is more vulnerable, while Eovaldi at 100 with four other pitches is hard to handle... for Orioles, Blue Jays, and Black Crowes.

 

"Hard To Hande" Black Crowes. Pretty inventive.

[SPLENDIDSPLINTER]

Maybe the best chance to win one game would be an Eovaldi start and 6 IP and with Sale going 3 innings in relief.

 

There's no question the SOX starters can handle a one game series.

Edited September 30, 2021 by SPLENDIDSPLINTER

[SPLENDIDSPLINTER]

Sale never hit 100 until 2018, and even then, it wasn't all that often. I wonder if throwing so much harder in 2018 was what caused the need for TJS.

 

Sale was a great pitcher from 204 to 2017. In those years, he averaged about 91-96 with 2017 being more like 94-97. His velocity, so far this year is very close to 2014-2017. One might expect it can gain some more by next season.

 

 

See the charts for yourself.. .

 

https://www.fangraphs.com/players/chris-sale/10603/graphs?pitchgraphs=true&statArr=&legend=1&split=base&time=daily&start=2014&end=2021&rtype=mult>1=15&dStatArray=FA&ymin=&ymax=

 

In the seasons before Sale's TJS, Sale had a habit of wearing down in early to mid-September.

Edited September 30, 2021 by SPLENDIDSPLINTER

[mvp 78]

I'm still not sure exactly what command is.

 

Command is being able to locate a pitch. Control is being able to throw that pitch for strikes.

[Bellhorn04]

Command is being able to locate a pitch. Control is being able to throw that pitch for strikes.

 

A rather arbitrary distinction LOL

[SPLENDIDSPLINTER]

A rather arbitrary distinction LOL

 

I believe 'command' and/or 'control' is the ability to hit the catcher's target more times than not.

Edited September 30, 2021 by SPLENDIDSPLINTER

[mvp 78]

A rather arbitrary distinction LOL

 

Hey, I didn't come up with that stupid terminology. I don't know why they made it intentionally confusing.

[mvp 78]

I believe 'command' and/or 'control' is the ability to hit the catcher's target more times than not.

 

No. Control is just throwing it for strikes regardless of where the catcher sets up.

[SPLENDIDSPLINTER]

No. Control is just throwing it for strikes regardless of where the catcher sets up.

 

 

That makes sense. Then 'command' would be throwing strikes w/o employing the middle of the plate. I guess 'command' would also include throwing inside and making the batter uncomfortable.

[jad]

That's a classic example of a distinction without a difference. Some people can throw a baseball exactly where they want; others can't; others can sometimes; others get lucky; others ...

[mvp 78]

That's a classic example of a distinction without a difference. Some people can throw a baseball exactly where they want; others can't; others can sometimes; others get lucky; others ...

 

Think of it like a tiered system:

1. No control over the pitch, can't consistently throw it for strikes

2. Control over the pitch, can throw it for strikes

3. Command over the pitch, can pinpoint the pitch location

[moonslav59]

In the seasons before Sale's TJS, Sale had a habit of wearing down in early to mid-September.

 

Maybe a little...

 

2017: 2.90 ERA

3.39 last 9 starts (3.00 last 6 starts)

 

2016: 3.39 ERA

3.41 last 9 starts

 

2015: 2.17 ERA

2.33 last 9 starts

 

2014: 3.07 ERA

3.36 last 9 starts (3.00 last 6 starts)

 

2013: 3.41 ERA

3.24 last 9 starts

 

In 2018, he missed some time in August.

2.11 ERA all season

2.65 in AUG & SEP (5 starts) 30Ks and 1 BB in 17 IP!

 

[mvp 78]

Maybe a little...

 

2017: 2.90 ERA

3.39 last 9 starts (3.00 last 6 starts)

 

2016: 3.39 ERA

3.41 last 9 starts

 

2015: 2.17 ERA

2.33 last 9 starts

 

2014: 3.07 ERA

3.36 last 9 starts (3.00 last 6 starts)

 

2013: 3.41 ERA

3.24 last 9 starts

 

In 2018, he missed some time in August.

2.11 ERA all season

2.65 in AUG & SEP (5 starts) 30Ks and 1 BB in 17 IP!

 

 

September is his worst month per his career splits. It's just that his worst month was still pretty damn good.

[moonslav59]

September is his worst month per his career splits. It's just that his worst month was still pretty damn good.

 

Yes, and these numbers that include part of August show a general drop off, but not by a whole lot, and yes, still impressive numbers.

 

One encouraging thing that jacko never responded to is is rants on Sale being toast was the 30 Ks and 1 BB in Sale's last 17 innings of 2018- after the injury and with severely reduced velocity.

 

It's my position that Sale can and will be an excellent pitcher, even if his velo does not return, but with most TJS pitchers, it does return.

 

I'm hopeful next year is a great one for Sale.

[vegasbob]

Think of it like a tiered system:

1. No control over the pitch, can't consistently throw it for strikes

2. Control over the pitch, can throw it for strikes

3. Command over the pitch, can pinpoint the pitch location

 

As examples to better comprehend: #1 describes the back end of the bullpen

# 2 describes Sale and Eovaldi

#3 describes no one who has graduated from the Sox MiLB system in the last 20 years

[jad]

Think of it like a tiered system:

1. No control over the pitch, can't consistently throw it for strikes

2. Control over the pitch, can throw it for strikes

3. Command over the pitch, can pinpoint the pitch location

 

OK. Just a matter of degree? (thus you can't have command without control). (Or as in Real Inspector Hound, when the critic says: "It has elan, but not éclat!)