Red Sox Sign Marwin Gonzalez

[moonslav59]

Your timeline is wrong. The $300 million offer to Mookie was made after the 2018 championship season.

 

...and I don't see how extending Sale & Bogey shows "the team was heading for a rebuild and veterans have little interest in rebuilds."

[Bellhorn04]

...and I don't see how extending Sale & Bogey shows "the team was heading for a rebuild and veterans have little interest in rebuilds."

 

Jaxo not letting pesky facts get in the way.

[notin]

Two things:

 

1. Mookie Betts saw the writing on the wall with the sox. You don't hire Chaim Bloom from TB to be a big spender.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Can we get past this at some point? Plenty of GMs have made their name on small market teams only to be hired by bigger markets due to their success. (We've seen it in Boston - Dan Duquette, for example.) And not one of them adopted the small market mentality with their new team.

 

Andrew Friedman with the Dodgers is another incredibly obvious example, as he is not only a big spender, as of right now, he is the biggest spender ever...

[moonslav59]

I do think the idea of a reset on the tax was going to happen at some point rather soon, but after extending Sale & Bogey, it was not clear we were headed towards a full rebuild mode.

[mvp 78]

Can we get past this at some point? Plenty of GMs have made their name on small market teams only to be hired by bigger markets due to their success. (We've seen it in Boston - Dan Duquette, for example.) And not one of them adopted the small market mentality with their new team.

 

Andrew Friedman with the Dodgers is another incredibly obvious example, as he is not only a big spender, as of right now, he is the biggest spender ever...

 

We can get past it. Jacko probably cannot.

[moonslav59]

Can we get past this at some point? Plenty of GMs have made their name on small market teams only to be hired by bigger markets due to their success. (We've seen it in Boston - Dan Duquette, for example.) And not one of them adopted the small market mentality with their new team.

 

Andrew Friedman with the Dodgers is another incredibly obvious example, as he is not only a big spender, as of right now, he is the biggest spender ever...

 

According to cots, Cashman and the Yanks went from $204M opening day budget in 2019 to $200M, this year (so far).

 

The Sox have gone from $236M in 2019 to $204M, this year (so far).

 

The 2020 budgets:

 

$108M NYY

$74M BOS

 

Who spent more, this winter? Bloom or Cashman?

[Kimmi]

I would like to ask him what efforts he made to sign Mookie after his public unequivocal pronouncement about the priority to make Mookie a lifelong Red Sox until the date that he traded Mookie. I have not seen nor heard any statements by him in that regard, and until I do, I will continue to think that he lied to our faces.

 

Sure, it would be nice to know exactly what efforts Bloom made, but it is unrealistic to expect him or any GM to share that information publicly. The bottom line is that it takes two to tango. Maybe Bloom lied. Maybe Bloom made every attempt to re-sign Mookie and Mookie told him flat out that he was not re-signing with the Sox no matter what.

[a700hitter]

Sure, it would be nice to know exactly what efforts Bloom made, but it is unrealistic to expect him or any GM to share that information publicly. The bottom line is that it takes two to tango. Maybe Bloom lied. Maybe Bloom made every attempt to re-sign Mookie and Mookie told him flat out that he was not re-signing with the Sox no matter what.

I am with you until that very last part. Mookie is smart and he wouldn’t undercut his value that way.

[Kimmi]

You’ll win 75, tops, with that awful roster

 

You are a funny dude.

[moonslav59]

You are a funny dude.

 

Maybe we should have worried more if he had projected 86 wins.

[jacksonianmarch]

You are a funny dude.

 

I just don't see it. You're in a buzz saw division with 3 teams decidedly better than you. Your offense is top heavy with a wing and a prayer beyond your 5th hitter. Your pen sucks. Your rotation has a recovering ERod, an oft injured Eovaldi and Richards and a s***** Perez as the only four likely to toe the slab. The 5 spot is up for grabs right now, and with the injury histories, who is your 6 or 7 right now if you have an injury and Bloom plans to monkey with Houck's service time? I know Sale is coming back, but by the time he gets back, you'll be dead and buried

[moonslav59]

I just don't see it. You're in a buzz saw division with 3 teams decidedly better than you. Your offense is top heavy with a wing and a prayer beyond your 5th hitter. Your pen sucks. Your rotation has a recovering ERod, an oft injured Eovaldi and Richards and a s***** Perez as the only four likely to toe the slab. The 5 spot is up for grabs right now, and with the injury histories, who is your 6 or 7 right now if you have an injury and Bloom plans to monkey with Houck's service time? I know Sale is coming back, but by the time he gets back, you'll be dead and buried

 

Vaz has hit about .798 since 2019- a rather large sample size. He will likely be out 8th hitter, maybe even 9th.

 

How many teams get .798 in the slot?

 

A Renfroe (.907)-Cordero (.786) platoons looks very promising, but largely unknown.

 

Kike between .730 and .740 is above average for a 7-9 hitter.

 

Dalbec is a big if, but very promising.

[jacksonianmarch]

I have Vaz as your 5 hitter. Dalbec has light tower power and an immense K rate. There are VERY few players who are continually successful with 30+% K rates. Very very few. And usually the ones that are have mammoth strike zones and insane exit velocities (Judge for one). You don’t know if he’s a .850OPS guy or if he ends up a Renfroe. Vaz has turned into a good hitter and JD will need someone behind him who isn’t a push over. If the bloom falls off the rose with Dalbec, JD won’t see a thing to hit and teams will go after Bobby K.

[notin]

I have Vaz as your 5 hitter. Dalbec has light tower power and an immense K rate. There are VERY few players who are continually successful with 30+% K rates. Very very few. And usually the ones that are have mammoth strike zones and insane exit velocities (Judge for one). You don’t know if he’s a .850OPS guy or if he ends up a Renfroe. Vaz has turned into a good hitter and JD will need someone behind him who isn’t a push over. If the bloom falls off the rose with Dalbec, JD won’t see a thing to hit and teams will go after Bobby K.

 

Hasn't stopped Joey Gallo...

[mvp 78]

I have Vaz as your 5 hitter. Dalbec has light tower power and an immense K rate. There are VERY few players who are continually successful with 30+% K rates. Very very few. And usually the ones that are have mammoth strike zones and insane exit velocities (Judge for one). You don’t know if he’s a .850OPS guy or if he ends up a Renfroe. Vaz has turned into a good hitter and JD will need someone behind him who isn’t a push over. If the bloom falls off the rose with Dalbec, JD won’t see a thing to hit and teams will go after Bobby K.

 

Judge exit velo: 92.2 (53rd in the league)

[jacksonianmarch]

Gallo has had one season where he has surpassed .209 in BA. His defense is the only thing that made his WAR plus last year. Gallo is very, very overrated.

[mvp 78]

Hasn't stopped Joey Gallo...

 

Dalbec's exit velo is higher than Gallo's.

[jacksonianmarch]

Judge exit velo: 92.2 (53rd in the league)

 

You're funny. I see what you did there. You used all players and then extrapolated Judge to it since he didnt qualify due to injury. Well, that's not really a useful stat, counting some players who got 10 ABs vs Judge. You take Judge's info and extrapolate over qualified players and he is 19th, which is within a rounding error of 11th in a season where he missed time due to injury. If he qualified in 2019, he'd have been first by a wide wide margin

[notin]

You're funny. I see what you did there. You used all players and then extrapolated Judge to it since he didnt qualify due to injury. Well, that's not really a useful stat, counting some players who got 10 ABs vs Judge. You take Judge's info and extrapolate over qualified players and he is 19th, which is within a rounding error of 11th in a season where he missed time due to injury. If he qualified in 2019, he'd have been first by a wide wide margin

 

... which then turns into the other side of the exact same criticism...

[mvp 78]

You're funny. I see what you did there. You used all players and then extrapolated Judge to it since he didnt qualify due to injury. Well, that's not really a useful stat, counting some players who got 10 ABs vs Judge. You take Judge's info and extrapolate over qualified players and he is 19th, which is within a rounding error of 11th in a season where he missed time due to injury. If he qualified in 2019, he'd have been first by a wide wide margin

 

Well, who's to say that when he comes back from injury that his exit velo will go back up? I mean, Devers was meh in 2020, so you expect him to continue that trajectory.

[jacksonianmarch]

Well, who's to say that when he comes back from injury that his exit velo will go back up? I mean, Devers was meh in 2020, so you expect him to continue that trajectory.

 

Devers had one good year. Judge has had solid performance in all 4 of his years, his only issue has been health (still a big issue)

[moonslav59]

I have Vaz as your 5 hitter. Dalbec has light tower power and an immense K rate. There are VERY few players who are continually successful with 30+% K rates. Very very few. And usually the ones that are have mammoth strike zones and insane exit velocities (Judge for one). You don’t know if he’s a .850OPS guy or if he ends up a Renfroe. Vaz has turned into a good hitter and JD will need someone behind him who isn’t a push over. If the bloom falls off the rose with Dalbec, JD won’t see a thing to hit and teams will go after Bobby K.

 

Vaz will not hit 5th. Book it.

 

Renfroe/Cordero & Dalbec will all hit above him. (Not Cordero v LHPs) The thing many miss on Dalbec is his OBP. Guys like Chavis & Middy never had that. Guys who K a lot and hit homers are a dime a dozen, but the ones with high OBP's are keepers. Can pitchers learn how to get Dalbec out to the point where he flounders? Sure, but don't bet on it.

 

I could see putting Vaz ahead of EHern, and if Arroyo is in the line-up, him too.

 

I think you and others either vastly under rate the Sox bottom of the order, or you haven't looked at the line-up of the worst 20 offenses in MLB.

 

The Sox will have a better than average OPS from the 5-9 or 6-9 hitters. Better than the Yanks or Jays? Probably not, but that doesn't make them awful.

[mvp 78]

Vaz will not hit 5th. Book it.

 

Renfroe/Cordero & Dalbec will all hit above him. (Not Cordero v LHPs) The thing many miss on Dalbec is his OBP. Guys like Chavis & Middy never had that. Guys who K a lot and hit homers are a dime a dozen, but the ones with high OBP's are keepers. Can pitchers learn how to get Dalbec out to the point where he flounders? Sure, but don't bet on it.

 

I could see putting Vaz ahead of EHern, and if Arroyo is in the line-up, him too.

 

I think you and others either vastly under rate the Sox bottom of the order, or you haven't looked at the line-up of the worst 20 offenses in MLB.

 

The Sox will have a better than average OPS from the 5-9 or 6-9 hitters. Better than the Yanks or Jays? Probably not, but that doesn't make them awful.

 

Last time Cora was manager, he hit 5th or above 17% of the time. He spent the majority of his time hitting 6th or 7th (27% and 25%, respectively). He also had way more PA's hitting 8th or 9th (30% combined).

 

I think Vaz may hit 5th from time to time, but he's more likely to be a 6th or 7th hitter depending on how well he's going.

[moonslav59]

Devers had one good year. Judge has had solid performance in all 4 of his years, his only issue has been health (still a big issue)

 

Define "good year."

 

Devers came up at age 20.

 

He hit .819 that year. Yes, just 240 PAs, but still a "good year."

 

His .731 sophomore year was not good- not bad, but not good.

 

2019 was excellent (.916).

 

2020 was "good" (.793).

 

He's had a "good year" 3 out of 4 seasons, and he's barely 24.

____________________________

 

Judge came up at age 24. Devers hasn't even played his age 24 season, yet.

 

He's had 4 good to excellent years after his first 27 game season. He's played over 112 games, once and turns 29, soon.

 

____________________________

 

Comparing the two seems rather pointless, given their ages and vastly different strengths and weaknesses.

[notin]

Define "good year."

 

Devers came up at age 20.

 

He hit .819 that year. Yes, just 240 PAs, but still a "good year."

 

His .731 sophomore year was not good- not bad, but not good.

 

2019 was excellent (.916).

 

2020 was "good" (.793).

 

He's had a "good year" 3 out of 4 seasons, and he's barely 24.

____________________________

 

Judge came up at age 24. Devers hasn't even played his age 24 season, yet.

 

He's had 4 good to excellent years after his first 27 game season. He's played over 112 games, once and turns 29, soon.

 

____________________________

 

Comparing the two seems rather pointless, given their ages and vastly different strengths and weaknesses.

 

At age 23, Devers had a .793 OPS in MLB, but apparently that was not a good year.

 

At age 23, Aaron Judge posted a .777 OPS in AAA and AA, but he has "mashed every year."

 

Got it...

[mvp 78]

At age 23, Devers had a .793 OPS in MLB, but apparently that was not a good year.

 

At age 23, Aaron Judge posted a .777 OPS in AAA and AA, but he has "mashed every year."

 

Got it...

 

But Judge hit the ball so insanely hard though. It was just bad luck. He's a magical creature who will be great forever and ever.

[jacksonianmarch]

Judge is just the better offensive player at this juncture. He is also a better defender at his position, but I digress. Devers has yet to prove he is a consistent, top level player. He is gonna want to be paid as such, especially now that he is in arbitration. So the sox need to decide if it is worth paying him based on 2019 and his potential. That's the question.

 

I have a better idea, why don't you tell me what you are comfortable paying him and we can see whether that's realistic or not?

[mvp 78]

Judge is just the better offensive player at this juncture. He is also a better defender at his position, but I digress. Devers has yet to prove he is a consistent, top level player. He is gonna want to be paid as such, especially now that he is in arbitration. So the sox need to decide if it is worth paying him based on 2019 and his potential. That's the question.

 

I have a better idea, why don't you tell me what you are comfortable paying him and we can see whether that's realistic or not?

 

7/140

[moonslav59]

Judge is just the better offensive player at this juncture. He is also a better defender at his position, but I digress. Devers has yet to prove he is a consistent, top level player. He is gonna want to be paid as such, especially now that he is in arbitration. So the sox need to decide if it is worth paying him based on 2019 and his potential. That's the question.

 

I have a better idea, why don't you tell me what you are comfortable paying him and we can see whether that's realistic or not?

 

How can you say "at this juncture" when Judge is 4 years older and was still in the minors when Devers had already gotten 1680 MLB PAs?

 

It's apples to oranges before we even talk about comparing health issues.

 

Comparing Judge to JD makes more sense, if you have to do so.

[notin]

Judge is just the better offensive player at this juncture. He is also a better defender at his position, but I digress. Devers has yet to prove he is a consistent, top level player. He is gonna want to be paid as such, especially now that he is in arbitration. So the sox need to decide if it is worth paying him based on 2019 and his potential. That's the question.

 

I have a better idea, why don't you tell me what you are comfortable paying him and we can see whether that's realistic or not?

 

Sort of like saying "at this juncture, Chris Mazza is a better pitcher than Deivi Garcia...