2020-2021 Offseason Thread

[mvp 78]

Matt Young was the 9th highest paid member of the Red Sox in 1991. I don't see that as a big splash signing in the least.

[mvp 78]

So... I have a chance and my hiring will be quiet?

 

No, we'll hear about it all day and every day on here.

[notin]

No, we'll hear about it all day and every day on here.

 

Probably true.

 

In fact, there is a good chance I would create multiple accounts just to talk about it more often...

[mvp 78]

Probably true.

 

In fact, there is a good chance I would create multiple accounts just to talk about it more often...

 

I would also expect to see an uptick of your usage of talking in the third person like I've seen.

[notin]

I would also expect to see an uptick of your usage of talking in the third person like I've seen.

 

Oh there is a decent chance I would invent new personages. Talking about myself in fourth and fifth person are both a given. It's just a question of how many new ones I can invent...

[moonslav59]

Matt Young was the 9th highest paid member of the Red Sox in 1991. I don't see that as a big splash signing in the least.

 

Good point, but the fact is, we didn't sign any FA to more than that, until Frank Viola in 1992 and then Offerman in '99! (I don't have information on extension contracts that far back.)

 

Any of the Henry bashers reading this- take note.

[notin]

Good point, but the fact is, we didn't sign any FA to more than that, until Frank Viola in 1992 and then Offerman in '99! (I don't have information on extension contracts that far back.)

 

Any of the Henry bashers reading this- take note.

 

To be fair, the economic scale of salaries was a lot different in 1991 and even in 1999.

 

In 1991, the highest paid player in MLB was Darryl Strawberry ($3.8mill). In 1999, it was Albert Belle ($11.9mill). For Strawberry's salary today, you cannot even get a decent middle reliever. Jose Urena, who pitched 107 IP in the past 2 seasons and was non-tendered by the Marlins this year, received $3.25 mill from Detroit.

 

https://sabr.org/research/article/mlbs-annual-salary-leaders-since-1874/

Edited January 4, 2021 by notin

[mvp 78]

Good point, but the fact is, we didn't sign any FA to more than that, until Frank Viola in 1992 and then Offerman in '99! (I don't have information on extension contracts that far back.)

 

Any of the Henry bashers reading this- take note.

 

So it's more of a faulting on ownership than it being a big FA pickup.

[mvp 78]

To be fair, the economic scale of salaries was a lot different in 1991 and even in 1999.

 

In 1991, the highest paid player in MLB was Darryl Strawberry ($3.8mill). In 1999, it was Albert Belle ($11.9mill). For Strawberry's salary today, you cannot even get a decent middle reliever. Jose Urena, who pitched 107 IP in the past 2 seasons and was non-tendered by the Marlins this year, received $3.25 mill.

 

https://sabr.org/research/article/mlbs-annual-salary-leaders-since-1874/

 

I know the scale was different, but at no point was Matt Young considered a splashy signing.

[notin]

Good point, but the fact is, we didn't sign any FA to more than that, until Frank Viola in 1992 and then Offerman in '99! (I don't have information on extension contracts that far back.)

 

Any of the Henry bashers reading this- take note.

 

Not true.

 

11 days after the Sox signed Matt Young to a 3 year $6,35mill contract, they signed Jack Clark to a 3 year $8.7mill contract Four days after that, the Red Sox signed reigning NL ERA champion Danny Darwin to a 4 year $11.8mill contract.

 

These contracts were actually are pretty big deals for the time. And none of them worked out. So maybe just spending is not everything....

[notin]

I know the scale was different, but at no point was Matt Young considered a splashy signing.

 

He was the smallest part of a triumvirate of failed signings in a short 15 day span in which the Sox committed roughly $27 million to 3 s***** players...

[mvp 78]

Not true.

 

11 days after the Sox signed Matt Young to a 3 year $6,35mill contract, they signed Jack Clark to a 3 year $8.7mill contract Four days after that, the Red Sox signed reigning NL ERA champion Danny Darwin to a 4 year $11.8mill contract.

 

These contracts were actually are pretty big deals for the time. And none of them worked out. So maybe just spending is not everything....

 

I was going to mention Darwin earlier. I actually think Darwin was kind of ok for the Sox. He was better than Clark and Young for sure.

[mvp 78]

He was the smallest part of a triumvirate of failed signings in a short 15 day span in which the Sox committed roughly $27 million to 3 s***** players...

 

Darwin was terrible in 91, but his 92 and 93 seasons were some of the best of his career. Not sure we could have expected him to exceed that performance.

[mvp 78]

The DH's ahead of Jack Clark in fWAR for 1991:

Frank Thomas HOF

Paul Molitor HOF

Cecil Fielder (44 HRs in his 2nd best season)

Chili Davis (statistically his 2nd best offensive season, very underrated player)

Albert Belle (first full season, had as many top 10 MVP totals as Yaz)

Harold Baines HOF

 

That's a pretty formidable group. His career died on the vine in 1992 tho.

[5GoldGlovesOF,75]

Darwin was terrible in 91, but his 92 and 93 seasons were some of the best of his career. Not sure we could have expected him to exceed that performance.

 

The Sox were a first place club in '90 but had to replace their number two, Mike Boddicker, who won 39 games in 2 1/2 years (he signed with KC and was never as good). Darwin was coming off a great year when he led the NL in ERA... but they had no DH and he had the Astrodome.

[notin]

The Sox were a first place club in '90 but had to replace their number two, Mike Boddicker, who won 39 games in 2 1/2 years (he signed with KC and was never as good). Darwin was coming off a great year when he led the NL in ERA... but they had no DH and he had the Astrodome.

 

Darwin also was at pretty much the league minimum for IP to qualify for the ERA title, having pitched 162.1 IP when the eligibility requirement was 162.0.

 

He really was not even a SP that year, starting only 17 of his 48 appearances...

[mvp 78]

The Sox were a first place club in '90 but had to replace their number two, Mike Boddicker, who won 39 games in 2 1/2 years (he signed with KC and was never as good). Darwin was coming off a great year when he led the NL in ERA... but they had no DH and he had the Astrodome.

 

I think they anticipated better contributions from Mike Gardiner and 1st rounder Kevin Morton. That era of the Sox farm was stacked to the gills with AAAA guys.

[mvp 78]

Darwin also was at pretty much the league minimum for IP to qualify for the ERA title, having pitched 162.1 IP when the eligibility requirement was 162.0.

 

He really was not even a SP that year, starting only 17 of his 48 appearances...

 

A proto Brad Peacock.

 

My thoughts on Danny Darwin are generally confused with Doyle Alexander, another mustachioed pitcher of that time.

[moonslav59]

So it's more of a faulting on ownership than it being a big FA pickup.

 

That was not my intent.

 

I was trying to show that the Sox have signed or extended players to longer term deals of significant value almost every year in the past 2 decades.

 

People have been saying Henry is "going cheap," but the record does not show that.

 

The two extensions given to Sale and Bogey, that began in 2020, were very large deals, but we lost Betts, so Henry is a now a miser?

 

Total the deals made the last 3 years, adjust for inflation, and my guess is the last 3 years rank right up there with any other big spending 3 years stretch.

 

2018 JD Martinez 5

2019 Nathan Eovaldi 4, *Vaz 4

2020 *Sale 5, *Bogey 6

 

(The 2014-2016 stretch may be the highest.)

 

2014 *Pedroia 8, Castillo 7

2015 Pablo Sandoval 5, Hanley Ramirez 4, *Porcello 4

2016 David Price 7

 

Henry has clearly been spending more from 2014-2020 (7 years) than from 2003-2013 (11 years).

 

Edited January 4, 2021 by moonslav59

[notin]

I think they anticipated better contributions from Mike Gardiner and 1st rounder Kevin Morton. That era of the Sox farm was stacked to the gills with AAAA guys.

 

Kevin Morton did give them an outstanding MLB debut, throwing complete game with 3 H / 1 ER against a pretty tacked Tigers's lineup.

 

The rest of his career - not so exciting.

 

The real flop of the ealy 1990's was the Sox had gret expectations from a trio of young pitchers in the minors named Brian Rose, Jeff Suppan and Carl Pavano. Pavano had a decent career and no Sox fan misses him for one obvious reason. Suppan was taken in the expansion draft, but did have a mediocre career that included at least two later stints with the Sox. Brian Rose flopped like a salmon in a fishing boat...

[moonslav59]

Not true.

 

11 days after the Sox signed Matt Young to a 3 year $6,35mill contract, they signed Jack Clark to a 3 year $8.7mill contract Four days after that, the Red Sox signed reigning NL ERA champion Danny Darwin to a 4 year $11.8mill contract.

 

These contracts were actually are pretty big deals for the time. And none of them worked out. So maybe just spending is not everything....

 

Thanks for letting me know.

 

This site left those out:

 

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1L4T9k8pGDDt8kVd1rvboacYdXpafHsOB2nhEGAGEaAY/edit#gid=165240331

 

Where did you find your info?

[harmony]

Thanks for letting me know.

 

This site left those out:

 

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1L4T9k8pGDDt8kVd1rvboacYdXpafHsOB2nhEGAGEaAY/edit#gid=165240331

 

Where did you find your info?

The Cot's spreadsheet starts in 1991. The Red Sox signed Matt Young on December 4, 1990, Jack Clark on December 15, 1990, and Danny Darwin on December 19, 1990.

[5GoldGlovesOF,75]

Darwin also was at pretty much the league minimum for IP to qualify for the ERA title, having pitched 162.1 IP when the eligibility requirement was 162.0.

 

He really was not even a SP that year, starting only 17 of his 48 appearances...

 

Not a worthy replacement for a starter who helped win two divisions (I always thought the expendable Brady Anderson plus minor leaguer Curt Schilling was a fair deal at the time for Boddicker, Baltimore's ace). At least Darwin hung around a lot longer than the other pitcher the Sox acquired from Houston, Larry Anderson... at least they didn't have to trade Scott Cooper, future All-Star third baseman.

[moonslav59]

The Cot's spreadsheet starts in 1991. The Red Sox signed Matt Young on December 4, 1990.

 

The link has Matt Young but not Clark & Darwin.

[moonslav59]

Help me fill in the gaps. Let me know of any others missing from this list.

 

1991 Danny Darwin 4, *Roger Clemens 4, Jack Clark 3, Matt Young 3

1992 Frank Viola 3

1999 Jose Offerman 4

2001 Manny Ramirez 8

2002 Johnny Damon 4

2004 Keith Foulke 4

2005 Edgar Renteria 4, Jason Varitek 4, Matt Clement 3

2007 JD Drew 5, Julio Lugo 4, *Ortiz 4, *Beckett 3

2008 Mike Lowell 3

2009 *Youkilis 4, *Pedey 6, *Lester5

2010 John Lackey 5

2011 Carl Crawford 7

2012 *Adrian Gonzalez 7, *Buchholz 4

2013 Shane Victorino 3

2014 *Pedroia 8, Castillo 7

2015 Pablo Sandoval 5, Hanley Ramirez 4, *Porcello 4

2016 David Price 7

2018 JD Martinez 5

2019 Nathan Eovaldi 4, *Vaz 4

2020 *Sale 5, *Bogey 6

Edited January 4, 2021 by moonslav59

[moonslav59]

The Cot's spreadsheet starts in 1991. The Red Sox signed Matt Young on December 4, 1990, Jack Clark on December 15, 1990, and Danny Darwin on December 19, 1990.

 

I was asking where notin found the Clark and Darwin signings, which came after Young's.

[notin]

Not a worthy replacement for a starter who helped win two divisions (I always thought the expendable Brady Anderson plus minor leaguer Curt Schilling was a fair deal at the time for Boddicker, Baltimore's ace). At least Darwin hung around a lot longer than the other pitcher the Sox acquired from Houston, Larry Anderson... at least they didn't have to trade Scott Cooper, future All-Star third baseman.

 

Scott Cooper gets my vote for worst player in MLB history with multiple All Star appearances. He was dealt away for a disappointing Mark Whiten, a player who had more RBIs in one day as a Cardinal than he did in his brief Red Sox career...

[notin]

I was asking where notin found the Clark and Darwin signings, which came after Young's.

 

Their respective page on B-R..

[moonslav59]

Darwin was terrible in 91, but his 92 and 93 seasons were some of the best of his career. Not sure we could have expected him to exceed that performance.

 

His 1993 season could be called great. He led the league in WHIP at 1.068 and had an ERA or 3.26 (143 ERA+). His 229 IP dwarfed the 161.2 he threw in 1990. The team went 19-15 in his 34 starts. His record was 15-11 for a team that went 80-82. That was the year Roger Clemens went 11-14 and had just a 48% GS%. Darwin's was 68%, that year.

 

As bad as his first and last seasons with Boston were, he still ended up with a 109 ERA+ with the Sox, which beats his career 106 mark and was not much worse than his 113 number he put up in 6 years with Houston before coming to Boston.

[moonslav59]

Their respective page on B-R..

 

Okay. I was just wondering if there is some list somewhere.

 

It's hard to think up names from the 90's.

 

I can't think of many others that were signed for 3+ years as a FA. It's harder still to find all the 3+ year extensions signed in that time period.

 

soxprospects.comlists all transactions starting in 2003.

 

I guess Cots goes back to 1991 but somehow included the Matt Young signing from 1990 and not the Clark and Darwin signings.

 

(Note: I just added Roger Clemens who was extended at $21.5M/4 in 1991.)

Edited January 4, 2021 by moonslav59