2020-2021 Offseason Thread

[oldtimer]

Sox75 made some great posts of just some of the many ways having Mookie Betts helps a franchise. Even if he really wanted to play somewhere else, losing Mookie is partly on the Red Sox. They did lowball him -- many times -- starting with insults at arbitration over a few thousand dollars. Then they reportedly offered him $200 million, when his market value had already surpassed that figure. And finally, they offered $300 million -- again, after Betts' market value had blown past that benchmark.

 

People can scream about a ballplayer turning down $300 million, but if a team is actually prepared to spend that much to keep their best player, then they can afford another $50ish mil to lock him up.

 

Do you know where Mookie ranks on the salary scale for 2021? TWENTY-SIXTH... think he's worth it?

 

https://www.spotrac.com/mlb/rankings/

 

I'm in the camp that believes that contract demands of 10 years at $300 mil is already very high when considering the risk of injury or a downturn in performance. Going 12 years for $365 is even a higher risk. Based on the CBT, that kind of contract hampers putting the rest of a competitive roster on the field. What the Dodgers did will have to be looked at after the contract continues for a few years. Mookie helped them win a WS but he did that along with other outstanding players. There is no way the Sox were going anywhere last season with him. Better to get value and start to rebuild the farm and the team.

[5GoldGlovesOF,75]

. There is no way the Sox were going anywhere last season with him. Better to get value and start to rebuild the farm and the team.

 

All we know for sure is where they did go without him last season.

 

"Better" will always be debatable, even if Betts gets hurt and breaks down as he ages. Will his replacements ever approximate his contributions? Will the savings be reinvested in actual top tier talent by the officer who traded him?

 

In the meantime -- however long it takes for Boston to become contenders again -- the experience isn't the same for fans without a generational player like Mookie to enjoy watching.

[Kimmi]

https://bleacherreport.com/articles/2929817-jackie-bradley-jr-rumors-red-sox-fa-seeking-contract-perhaps-beyond-4-years

 

Jesus Mary! We passed on making a deal with a GENERATIONAL YOUNG TALENT, the kind of young talent everyone in the league is desperate to sign.... to appeal to the NEXT GENERATION .. one Mookie (cool name) Betts.

 

A guy you could not go wrong with. The freaking guy can professionally bowl, outshoot most Celtics players from the 3 pt line, & the guy you want to date your daughter.

 

Now... we're possibly going to throw JBJ a 6 year contract.

 

1. There is absolutely no way we sign JBJ to a 6 year contract or even a 4 year contract. A 3 year contract is pretty much out of the question.

 

2. Bloom is the man.

 

3. Red Sox Stats

@redsoxstats

·

9h

Verdugo has basically played the equivalent of one full MLB season:

709 plate appearances

44 doubles

2 triples

20 home runs

8 steals

53/112 BB/K

.290/.345/.458

5.5 WAR

 

And for mere pennies on the dollar of what Mookie costs.

[Kimmi]

I'm in the camp that believes that contract demands of 10 years at $300 mil is already very high when considering the risk of injury or a downturn in performance. Going 12 years for $365 is even a higher risk. Based on the CBT, that kind of contract hampers putting the rest of a competitive roster on the field. What the Dodgers did will have to be looked at after the contract continues for a few years. Mookie helped them win a WS but he did that along with other outstanding players. There is no way the Sox were going anywhere last season with him. Better to get value and start to rebuild the farm and the team.

 

Thank you.

 

A lot of people are crediting the acquisition of Mookie for the Dodgers' World Series win. The truth of the matter is that the Dodgers could have very likely won the WS even without Mookie. They certainly would have made the playoffs without him. Does the one championship make the 12 year deal worth it? I guess an argument could be made for that.

 

The Dodgers have built a powerhouse that was made possible in large part by their farm system. It starts with the farm. Build that up and that opens up so many other possibilities.

[Kimmi]

All we know for sure is where they did go without him last season.

 

"Better" will always be debatable, even if Betts gets hurt and breaks down as he ages. Will his replacements ever approximate his contributions? Will the savings be reinvested in actual top tier talent by the officer who traded him?

 

In the meantime -- however long it takes for Boston to become contenders again -- the experience isn't the same for fans without a generational player like Mookie to enjoy watching.

 

Yes, the saving will be reinvested.

 

I think fans will get a lot of enjoyment out of watching guys like Devers, Bogaerts, and Verdugo play. By all accounts, if Kike is halfway decent, he will be a fan favorite.

[Kimmi]

Also, do not discount the Cora Factor!!!

[5GoldGlovesOF,75]

Yes, the saving will be reinvested.

 

I think fans will get a lot of enjoyment out of watching guys like Devers, Bogaerts, and Verdugo play. By all accounts, if Kike is halfway decent, he will be a fan favorite.

 

Not disagreeing, but obviously those Sox would be better to watch surrounded by other top talent. Maybe Bloom will acquire some a year from now.

 

For me, a longterm contract for a star player doesn't have to be justified by winning a World Series. That's the ultimate goal, but the journey is often more valuable than the destination. The Red Sox almost won in '86 with Dave Henderson in center, and they finished first a few times with Ellis Burks out there. But I had more fun watching Fred Lynn in the '70s.

[mvp 78]

Also, do not discount the Cora Factor!!!

 

86 wins with this squad? As long as health of staff isn’t worse than we expect it to be.

[notin]

Not disagreeing, but obviously those Sox would be better to watch surrounded by other top talent. Maybe Bloom will acquire some a year from now.

 

For me, a longterm contract for a star player doesn't have to be justified by winning a World Series. That's the ultimate goal, but the journey is often more valuable than the destination. The Red Sox almost won in '86 with Dave Henderson in center, and they finished first a few times with Ellis Burks out there. But I had more fun watching Fred Lynn in the '70s.

 

The Sox played in the same number of World Series with Lynn as they did with Henderson. I get the point, but too many say “this is not a championship caliber team.” Which most times simply means “this roster does not match my narrow-minded interpretation of the only winning formula.”

 

I just want a watchable team. This is my primary form of entertainment and damnit, it needs to be entertaining. That doesn’t mean it needs to be loaded with All Star talent at 8 positions and 3 rotation spots. It doesn’t mean it needs a Hall of Famer. But can I watch this team every night knowing they have a chance? Last year’s team was overmatched, and we all knew very early on. Some understood why. But how many think this team as it stands now can be entertaining (subjective, I know) through September? Or better yet, October?

[Bellhorn04]

I just want a watchable team. This is my primary form of entertainment and damnit, it needs to be entertaining. That doesn’t mean it needs to be loaded with All Star talent at 8 positions and 3 rotation spots. It doesn’t mean it needs a Hall of Famer. But can I watch this team every night knowing they have a chance? Last year’s team was overmatched, and we all knew very early on. Some understood why. But how many think this team as it stands now can be entertaining (subjective, I know) through September? Or better yet, October?

 

A lot will have to go right with the pitching for us to be competitive. E-Rod, Eovaldi, Richards, Houck, Pivetta, Ottavino, whoever else you can think of...a bunch of guys will have to stay healthy and pitch up to or exceed expectations.

[Bellhorn04]

Also, do not discount the Cora Factor!!!

 

We did have an excellent offseason in the coaching department. I'm happy about that.

[Bellhorn04]

In the meantime -- however long it takes for Boston to become contenders again -- the experience isn't the same for fans without a generational player like Mookie to enjoy watching.

 

Not to belabor the point, but nobody enjoyed the 2019 Red Sox very much either. Red Sox fans are seriously spoiled after all the titles. 2019 was a perfect example. Fans spent the season either ripping Cora for RestGate or tuning out.

[notin]

Not to belabor the point, but nobody enjoyed the 2019 Red Sox very much either. Red Sox fans are seriously spoiled after all the titles. 2019 was a perfect example. Fans spent the season either ripping Cora for RestGate or tuning out.

 

And DD for his off-season complacency...

[Bellhorn04]

And DD for his off-season complacency...

 

Yep. While the old schoolers were tearing Cora to shreds, new schoolers were lambasting DD for Eovaldi, Pearce, the bullpen and the onrushing cliff.

 

It was the whole package.

[5GoldGlovesOF,75]

Not to belabor the point, but nobody enjoyed the 2019 Red Sox very much either. Red Sox fans are seriously spoiled after all the titles. 2019 was a perfect example. Fans spent the season either ripping Cora for RestGate or tuning out.

 

I'm totally spoiled, and '19 was anti-climatic and disappointing, considering expectations. But as for enjoying '19, it was a great year to watch Devers and X, while JD and Betts were still really good, all the way to the last day when Mookie scored the walk-off from first on a Rafie bouncer.

 

I'd say "nobody" should be more like "nobody here" -- I read this forum that year before joining. RestGate wasn't a rampant concept all over fandom -- and Sox fans had logical reasons to hope that the rotation would be even better in '19... IF Price and Eovaldi had entire seasons like they did in October '18 when it sure looked they both had turned a corner. Sale was a question mark, but there was also optimism because he totally dominated the last three batters of the 2020 season.

[Bellhorn04]

So after missing out on Bauer, the Mets will probably be the ones who sign Odorizzi...

[Bellhorn04]

I'm totally spoiled, and '19 was anti-climatic and disappointing, considering expectations. But as for enjoying '19, it was a great year to watch Devers and X, while JD and Betts were still really good, all the way to the last day when Mookie scored the walk-off from first on a Rafie bouncer.

 

I'd say "nobody" should be more like "nobody here" -- I read this forum that year before joining. RestGate wasn't a rampant concept all over fandom -- and Sox fans had logical reasons to hope that the rotation would be even better in '19... IF Price and Eovaldi had entire seasons like they did in October '18 when it sure looked they both had turned a corner. Sale was a question mark, but there was also optimism because he totally dominated the last three batters of the 2020 season.

 

NESN ratings took a dive in 2019, that's why I feel comfortable saying there was a general malaise among the fans that year.

[moonslav59]

Betts left that much we know. Would more money have kept him in Boston? Who knows. he left! When he left, the Red Sox lost their face of the franchise player. They lost someone who might well end up being considered one of the best of all time. It continues to befuddle me as to how any franchise would not do just about anything that they possibly could to keep a player of this caliber in town. Personally I know that I can't do anything about this different approach the Red Sox have headed in although I really don't care for it. I do feel that Bloom deserves a chance but the moves that have been made so far really aren't sending shivers of hope up and down my spine. I likely will sort of follow them I guess. I certainly won't be taking the time to go to Fenway to watch them. I just don't fine them particularly interesting right now.

 

Nice post.

 

I will add that it seems obvious that Blooms hands have been tied, and you did say he "deserves a chance," but the moves he has made, so far, are withing a framework of only being able to spend X amount of money for two years in a row. It's been a while since we've done back-to-back budget crunching.

 

That being said, one can look at the Ottavino trade and think, "This Frank German better be worth it," because Bloom used a lot of this winter's spending budget on Ottavino and a guy like Richards.

 

I'm cutting Bloom a lot of slack, maybe more than he deserves, but I think we should reserve conclusive judgement until after the time he is allowed to spend large and long. I thought that time might be this winter, and I hope it's next winter, but who knows?

[moonslav59]

The Sox played in the same number of World Series with Lynn as they did with Henderson. I get the point, but too many say “this is not a championship caliber team.” Which most times simply means “this roster does not match my narrow-minded interpretation of the only winning formula.”

 

I just want a watchable team. This is my primary form of entertainment and damnit, it needs to be entertaining. That doesn’t mean it needs to be loaded with All Star talent at 8 positions and 3 rotation spots. It doesn’t mean it needs a Hall of Famer. But can I watch this team every night knowing they have a chance? Last year’s team was overmatched, and we all knew very early on. Some understood why. But how many think this team as it stands now can be entertaining (subjective, I know) through September? Or better yet, October?

 

I get your point, but when you look at the 2019 team, on paper, at the start of the season, it sure looked like a fun and exciting team to watch: it turned out not to be.

 

I happen to think this season could be interesting and possibly even exciting. Sometimes a team with low expectations and a roster full of some talented players with pride, special things can happen.

 

This is not an old team. The majority of our key players are firmly within or approaching prime. A few are past peak prime but not by so much that all hope is lost for a good to even great season. Of course health and injury history is the major concern with a number of our key players, and it's nearly impossible to project what several Sox players will do for us in 2021, but in terms of age and what many of these players have done in very recent seasons (2018-2020), there is reason for hope (and maybe prayers in some cases.)

 

Our oldest player on the 40 man roster is Ottavino at 35. While he is likely a key to Sox success in 2021, we're talking about maybe a 60 IP RP'er.

 

JD is 33 and showed some signs of decline in 2020, but I think most of us think he has a strong chance at rebounding- maybe not to the 2018 level, but somewhere in between.

 

Next is Brasier at 33. We are not going to live and die with Ryan.

 

Richards (4th starter?) at age 32 is 3rd on our seniority list. That's pretty amazing. Age 32 is not really all that old, especially for a guy without a lot of innings under his belt. (Walden is 32, also, but he may not even pitch on the big club in 2021.)

 

Our 31 year olds are Sale (our ace, when healthy), Andriese and Mazza. Age is not a concern for Sale- his health is.

 

Eovaldi, Vaz and Barnes are all 30. That is still prime.

 

In terms of the longer view, Richards, Ottavino & Barnes are FAs after this year and JD, Eovaldi & Andriese will be after 2022.

[notin]

So after missing out on Bauer, the Mets will probably be the ones who sign Odorizzi...

 

Or deal for Price, who is looking a tad too expensive to have to fight for a spot in a crowded Dodger rotation...

[a700hitter]

Pedro is in the group with Ruth, Teddy, Yaz & Rice.

We had him for his most of his prime and there was very little prime left when he left. He was different case from the others, because he didn’t start with the Red Sox.

[moonslav59]

We had him for his most of his prime and there was very little prime left when he left. He was different case from the others, because he didn’t start with the Red Sox.

 

I didn't realize that was a criteria.

 

His short time here eclipsed Rice's whole career, IMO.

[5GoldGlovesOF,75]

I didn't realize that was a criteria.

 

His short time here eclipsed Rice's whole career, IMO.

 

I think 700's point was keeping and building around generational guys who started in Boston. But ya, it sucked to see Pedro leave, because his prime here was arguably as good as that of any Red Sox in some combo of accomplishments, impact and influence -- he just may have been the best player in baseball at his specialty longer than Yaz, Rice or Ruth (while here)... except Ted.

[moonslav59]

I think 700's point was keeping and building around generational guys who started in Boston. But ya, it sucked to see Pedro leave, because his prime here was arguably as good as that of any Red Sox in some combo of accomplishments, impact and influence -- he just may have been the best player in baseball at his specialty longer than Yaz, Rice or Ruth (while here)... except Ted.

 

I wasnt really thinking of it as Pedro leaving. His departure was nothing like that of Betts, Lynn or Fisk.

[Kimmi]

The Sox played in the same number of World Series with Lynn as they did with Henderson. I get the point, but too many say “this is not a championship caliber team.” Which most times simply means “this roster does not match my narrow-minded interpretation of the only winning formula.”

 

I just want a watchable team. This is my primary form of entertainment and damnit, it needs to be entertaining. That doesn’t mean it needs to be loaded with All Star talent at 8 positions and 3 rotation spots. It doesn’t mean it needs a Hall of Famer. But can I watch this team every night knowing they have a chance? Last year’s team was overmatched, and we all knew very early on. Some understood why. But how many think this team as it stands now can be entertaining (subjective, I know) through September? Or better yet, October?

 

Me! Me! Me!

 

I am very excited for this season to start.

 

Who's with me?

[Swiharts Ghost]

Is Nomar Mazara a platoon fit with Hunter ?guy is 26 mashes righties would be dirt cheap range is serviceable. Edited February 6, 2021 by Swiharts Ghost

[moonslav59]

Me! Me! Me!

 

I am very excited for this season to start.

 

Who's with me?

 

I am.

 

So many unanswered questions. I can't wait and hope many answers are good ones.

[moonslav59]

Is Nomar Mazara a platoon fit with Hunter ?guy is 26 mashes righties would be dirt cheap range is serviceable.

 

.781 is NOT mashing.

 

Beni is better vs RHPs.

 

[Swiharts Ghost]

.781 is NOT mashing.

 

Beni is better vs RHPs.

 

 

Umm love ya man but Benny cant his ass with both hands lately .Yeah I’m taking Nomar over Benny .Hey Moon I get Benny May be a better fielding maybe but come on man can Benny hit 505 foot Moon shots ? Nomar is still 26.

Edited February 7, 2021 by Swiharts Ghost

[moonslav59]

Umm love ya man but Benny cant his ass with both hands lately .Yeah I’m taking Nomar over Benny .

 

Beni will be fine.