Why was Mookie traded, exactly?

[moonslav59]

You can't really say for sure he would make no difference.

 

No, of course not, but I'm not banking on us being a David Price away from a 2021 ring.

[cp176]

The idea of hating DD is just one person's invention. Many may dislike the way he ran the payroll up with underperforming long term contracts. In addition, many are also exasperated with the dismantling of the minors. That's a different thing than hating DD. Most have moved on from DD to a discussion of what can be done to make the team more competitive in the long term.

 

Do you mean that I invented it? It is ok to deal with me directly if you areferring to me. You are right , most have moved on from this issue. Some have not, which prompts my responses. It's too bad but I'm not going away. I continue to be a fan of the current GM because that's what I am a fan. I'm hoping that bloom will give me something to get excited about again.

[moonslav59]

The closest anyone is to "hating" DD is/was Kimmi and notin, but I've never viewed their opinions on him as being hateful.

 

Kimmi has very little good to say about him and has been highly critical- not just in hindsight.

 

notin has praised some of what he did while being highly critical of more of what he did and the state he left us in.

 

Maybe I'm missing someone else, but if these two are the leaders of any "hate crowd," I'm failing to see it.

 

To me, the Ben critics were more plentiful and vociferous. (I'll never call them Ben haters.)

[cp176]

The closest anyone is to "hating" DD is/was Kimmi and notin, but I've never viewed their opinions on him as being hateful.

 

Kimmi has very little good to say about him and has been highly critical- not just in hindsight.

 

notin has praised some of what he did while being highly critical of more of what he did and the state he left us in.

 

Maybe I'm missing someone else, but if these two are the leaders of any "hate crowd," I'm failing to see it.

 

To me, the Ben critics were more plentiful and vociferous. (I'll never call them Ben haters.)

 

Was hate too strong a word? How about if I simply said that the derogatory comments about the man and what he did just kept coming. Whether someone has been more derogatory in their comments I think is an opinion kind of decided by which side you tend to align with. Ben has been blasted on here for sure. Worse than DD? - not in my opinion. The point of this though in reality is that to still be bringing up Dave Dombrowski's name in a negative manner only has one purpose. it is doing no good. i'm not the one bringing it up. It is old news and only serves one purpose. I perfectly ok with my chain being rattled.

[moonslav59]

Was hate too strong a word? How about if I simply said that the derogatory comments about the man and what he did just kept coming. Whether someone has been more derogatory in their comments I think is an opinion kind of decided by which side you tend to align with. Ben has been blasted on here for sure. Worse than DD? - not in my opinion. The point of this though in reality is that to still be bringing up Dave Dombrowski's name in a negative manner only has one purpose. it is doing no good. i'm not the one bringing it up. It is old news and only serves one purpose. I perfectly ok with my chain being rattled.

 

There's not much to talk about until some Sox signings start. Talking about past GMs and managers is a longstanding practice by many fans- probably more so with Sox fans.

 

Sure, there's some bashing or "derogatory comments" that keep coming up. This most recent conversation included calling DD basher's comments "juvenile."

 

I agree there have been more negative comments about DD recently, but IMO, I'd say there were way more Ben bashings going on within a year or two of his departure than with DD, but that's just my opinion and perception- not that it really matters.

 

I may disagree on the idea that discussions about past GMs only serves one purpose, but it's a good thing we don't all see things the same way.

 

[notin]

There's not much to talk about until some Sox signings start. Talking about past GMs and managers is a longstanding practice by many fans- probably more so with Sox fans.

 

Sure, there's some bashing or "derogatory comments" that keep coming up. This most recent conversation included calling DD basher's comments "juvenile."

 

I agree there have been more negative comments about DD recently, but IMO, I'd say there were way more Ben bashings going on within a year or two of his departure than with DD, but that's just my opinion and perception- not that it really matters.

 

I may disagree on the idea that discussions about past GMs only serves one purpose, but it's a good thing we don't all see things the same way.

 

 

With DD, the “bashings” are just criticisms of his philosophy for building a team. Not like anyone is saying anything personal about him.

 

GMs and managers are long standing fodder for criticisms from fans. Immediately after he invented the game, rumor has it Abner Doubleday’s first words were “Stupid time to call for a steal”...

[Larry Cook]

And how many teams are beating down desperate Dave’s door since we let him go?

 

How many other teams laughed at Henry, when he beat absolutely no other competitor to hire desperate Dave after Detroit wisely let him go!

[moonslav59]

With DD, the “bashings” are just criticisms of his philosophy for building a team. Not like anyone is saying anything personal about him.

 

GMs and managers are long standing fodder for criticisms from fans. Immediately after he invented the game, rumor has it Abner Doubleday’s first words were “Stupid time to call for a steal”...

 

I'd like to know some of the specific "juvenile Bashings" and how they differed from Ben bashings.

 

When even Theo got bashed, it's obvious, it comes with the territory.

[cp176]

I'd like to know some of the specific "juvenile Bashings" and how they differed from Ben bashings.

 

When even Theo got bashed, it's obvious, it comes with the territory.

 

My terminology seems to be bothering you. It's a personal thing at this point. I consider it juvenile to continually keep bringing up a contentious issue which is over. I don't bring up anything that has to do with Ben Cherington. I guess if I consider it juvenile to play a game that a kindergartner would play, it is my prerogative. I think that the bashing had its day. If you want to dig through past posts in search of anything said that you might consider juvenile, have at it. I'm not going to do it. There is no need to.

[moonslav59]

My terminology seems to be bothering you. It's a personal thing at this point. I consider it juvenile to continually keep bringing up a contentious issue which is over. I don't bring up anything that has to do with Ben Cherington. I guess if I consider it juvenile to play a game that a kindergartner would play, it is my prerogative. I think that the bashing had its day. If you want to dig through past posts in search of anything said that you might consider juvenile, have at it. I'm not going to do it. There is no need to.

 

I'm not seeing what you are seeing. I'm not asking you to dig up a post or two. There are probably a few, for sure.

 

As for bashing GMs being playground stuff, it's been an American pastime since I can remember- not that it makes it right.

 

Assigning blame to anything and everything is something that seems to be expanding and deepening. I can't say I haven't partaken in various assignings, myself.

 

I'm not sure why going way back is any more juvenile or hateful than talking about just the present state of affairs.

 

My main point was not so much about the choice of terminology but the fact that is was only assigned to the DD hate crowd, while many of the DD defenders seemd to part of the Ben-bashing crowd, but that was apparently not "juvenile"or "hateful."

 

I, for one, and thankful for all the GMs we've had going back to Dan Duquette. I'm not saying their time was never up or that never felt a change of GM (or manager) was needed, but I have a net positive view of all the last 5or 6 Gms we've had, including Bloom.

 

This doesn't mean I won't speak out against something I disagree with, but they all had my overall support.

[Bellhorn04]

And how many teams are beating down desperate Dave’s door since we let him go?

 

How many other teams laughed at Henry, when he beat absolutely no other competitor to hire desperate Dave after Detroit wisely let him go!

 

Now see, this is juvenile, folks. Larry has cleared it up for us.

[notin]

Now see, this is juvenile, folks. Larry has cleared it up for us.

 

While Larry is the anti-a700 (aka "Desperate Dave vs Coffee Boy") in the Great GM War, does his criticism differ from what was often said of Ben?

[Bellhorn04]

While Larry is the anti-a700 (aka "Desperate Dave vs Coffee Boy") in the Great GM War, does his criticism differ from what was often said of Ben?

 

This feels a lot like a political debate, and it's hard to be unbiased in such things. IMHO Larry's verbal disparagement of DD is worse, because he never calls him anything but Desperate Dave.

 

700hitter did say some complimentary things about Ben. He said he was a stand-up guy in his dealings with the press. And the 'coffee boy' stuff, I think, got started when others suggested it was Lucchino who was responsible for some of the bad signings.

[moonslav59]

This feels a lot like a political debate, and it's hard to be unbiased in such things. IMHO Larry's verbal disparagement of DD is worse, because he never calls him anything but Desperate Dave.

 

700hitter did say some complimentary things about Ben. He said he was a stand-up guy in his dealings with the press. And the 'coffee boy' stuff, I think, got started when others suggested it was Lucchino who was responsible for some of the bad signings.

 

I think Larry called DD "desperate Dave" before we even signed him. I guess you could call that "juvenile," but it has kind of been his M.O.- win now at all costs. If that's the most juvenile thing DD bashers have said, IMO, it pales against "coffee boy" and some of the other extremely harsh criticisms leveled against Ben.

 

Now, 3 last place finishes in 4 years is certainly reason enough to be critical and even hyper critical. DD's record was much better, as long as we ignore (or devalue) the state the team was left in after their departures.

 

IMO, Ben left DD with a foundation or top young players and a long list of high-demand prospects that could and were used to build the greatest Sox team in history- the 2018 WS champions. DD left Bloom is a much worse situation, and that's putting it mildly.

 

I'm thankful for the 2018 ring. I'm glad DD was our GM. His teams were exciting to watch beyond just the 2018 team, but we paid a hefty price for those 3-4 seasons of high competitiveness. To me, it was worth it. To others, it was overkill or much worse. Some will find it hard to let go of those feelings just as some seem to have a hard time letting go of their feelings towards Bloom some 5 years after he left. The fact that we sucked, last year and have little hope for 2020 makes the "letting go" harder. (2019 didn't help either.)

[Bellhorn04]

I think Larry called DD "desperate Dave" before we even signed him. I guess you could call that "juvenile," but it has kind of been his M.O.- win now at all costs. If that's the most juvenile thing DD bashers have said, IMO, it pales against "coffee boy" and some of the other extremely harsh criticisms leveled against Ben.

 

I fail to see how Desperate Dave "pales against" Coffee Boy LOL

 

I think it's a wash, personally. Ben gets bashed for the last place finishes, DD gets bashed for decimating the farm. Neither gets better or worse treatment.

[notin]

This feels a lot like a political debate, and it's hard to be unbiased in such things. IMHO Larry's verbal disparagement of DD is worse, because he never calls him anything but Desperate Dave.

 

700hitter did say some complimentary things about Ben. He said he was a stand-up guy in his dealings with the press. And the 'coffee boy' stuff, I think, got started when others suggested it was Lucchino who was responsible for some of the bad signings.

 

Personally I’ve always felt Lucchino got a bad rap as a scapegoat. For a guy whose been linked to numerous winning franchises in multiple sports, he was actually pretty humble. I have always and still do hold Ben accountable for Sandoval.

 

Hanley might not have been such a bad deal had he not injured his shoulder. Rusney had some pluses but never got a real chance and had his own injury problems. Although it is very possible DD’s original assessment that he was a 4th outfielder at best is correct.

 

But I never liked Dombrowski’s “win now and f*** tomorrow” strategy, because it ALWAYS leads to messed up teams like the 2020 Red Sox that can take multiple seasons to fix...

Edited November 26, 2020 by notin

[Bellhorn04]

But I never liked Dombrowski’s “win now and f*** tomorrow” strategy, because it ALWAYS leads to messed up teams like the 2020 Red Sox that can take multiple seasons to fix...

 

But it's pretty hard to deny that when Henry brought DD aboard, he knew he was going to get the “win now and f*** tomorrow” approach.

[moonslav59]

I fail to see how Desperate Dave "pales against" Coffee Boy LOL

 

I think it's a wash, personally. Ben gets bashed for the last place finishes, DD gets bashed for decimating the farm. Neither gets better or worse treatment.

 

Dave was "desperate" to win in Detroit- as the owner basically told him to be.

 

I don't like the nickname, but it kinda fit.

 

Sure, Ben had less power given to him than DD, but I see "coffee boy" and being more disparaging and unfitting, but that's just my opinion.

 

Besides, it's not the worst thing said about Ben, either. Maybe, the most juvenile, but Ben was bashed harshly during and after his time with the Sox, and it lasted years afterwards.

 

If Bloom is able to turn things around, quickly, my guess is the DD bashing will nearly go away. IMO, Ben was bashed more 2-3 years after he left than DD was within one year of leaving. I may be wrong, but that's my perception.

 

Like I said, though, 3 last place finishes compared to DD's 3 years of great teams put out by DD looked at without the context what was left them when the took over and what they left the next guy helps explain why it is what is is.

[moonslav59]

But it's pretty hard to deny that when Henry brought DD aboard, he knew he was going to get the “win now and f*** tomorrow” approach.

 

Truth.

[notin]

But it's pretty hard to deny that when Henry brought DD aboard, he knew he was going to get the “win now and f*** tomorrow” approach.

 

Doesn’t make me like it any better...

[Bellhorn04]

Doesn’t make me like it any better...

 

Oh darn, I thought it would. Well, I tried.

[moonslav59]

Doesn’t make me like it any better...

 

The worst possible outcome for DD would have been to spend all that capital- both financial & in young prospects trades- and not get a ring.

 

Sure, it looked and still looks like it was overkill, but nothing is a sure bet in baseball.

 

What he did really hurt our long term outlook, but those 3 seasons were incredibly exciting and that 2018 team will go down as one of the best teams of all time. The window of success should really have been 4-5 years, but the Gods of 2019 were not kind to us. (Not that I'm complaining- 4 rings in 15 years was heavenly.)

 

Had the 2018 ring been our first in 80+ years, I doubt anyone would be complaining- not that this makes everything alright.

 

Also, hardly anybody criticizes Henry, and for good reason, but you have to know he hired DD to do what he did. He could have told him, at anytime, "enough is enough- be happy with what we have and roll the dice." Going overboard was the accepted plan by the team. Mortgaging the future was part of the plan.

Edited November 26, 2020 by moonslav59

[Bellhorn04]

The worst possible outcome for DD would have been to spend all that capital- both financial & in young prospects trades- and not get a ring.

 

Sure, it looked and still looks like it was overkill, but nothing is a sure bet in baseball.

 

What he did really hurt our long term outlook, but those 3 seasons were incredibly exciting and that 2018 team will go down as one of the best teams of all time. The window of success should really have been 4-5 years, but the Gods of 2019 were not kind to us. (Not that I'm complaining- 4 rings in 15 years was heavenly.)

 

Had the 2018 ring been our first in 80+ years, I doubt anyone would be complaining- not that this makes everything alright.

 

Also, hardly anybody criticizes Henry, and for good reason, but you have to know he hired DD to do what he did. He could have told him, at anytime, "enough is enough- be happy with what we have and roll the dice." Going overboard was the accepted plan by the team. Mortgaging the future was part of the plan.

 

And I'm sure that when Henry hired DD in 2015, his plan wasn't to can him in 2019 and replace him with a guy like Bloom.

 

But if that HAD been the plan, it wouldn't have been a bad one.

 

We're lucky it worked out this way IMHO

[Monster24]

The worst possible outcome for DD would have been to spend all that capital- both financial & in young prospects trades- and not get a ring.

 

Sure, it looked and still looks like it was overkill, but nothing is a sure bet in baseball.

 

What he did really hurt our long term outlook, but those 3 seasons were incredibly exciting and that 2018 team will go down as one of the best teams of all time. The window of success should really have been 4-5 years, but the Gods of 2019 were not kind to us. (Not that I'm complaining- 4 rings in 15 years was heavenly.)

 

Had the 2018 ring been our first in 80+ years, I doubt anyone would be complaining- not that this makes everything alright.

 

Also, hardly anybody criticizes Henry, and for good reason, but you have to know he hired DD to do what he did. He could have told him, at anytime, "enough is enough- be happy with what we have and roll the dice." Going overboard was the accepted plan by the team. Mortgaging the future was part of the plan.[/

 

I wonder how things would be if DD didn’t extend Sale and resign Eovaldi after wining the WS?

Farm would have still been bare but would have been in a better financial situation. And since Sale had a year left anyway they wouldn’t have been giving up on 2019 anyway.

Might not have happened anyway but would have increased chance of keeping Betts I would guess?

[5GoldGlovesOF,75]

I wonder how things would be if DD didn’t extend Sale and resign Eovaldi after wining the WS?

Farm would have still been bare but would have been in a better financial situation. And since Sale had a year left anyway they wouldn’t have been giving up on 2019 anyway.

Might not have happened anyway but would have increased chance of keeping Betts I would guess?

 

There are some of us who think DD offered extensions for Sale, Bogaerts, etc. only after he knew Betts was a goner. Dombro wouldn't come out and say it, but his "You can't keep them all!" quote turned out to be more revealing than speculative.

 

In hindsight the Sale and Eovaldi signings look like poor investments so far, but imagine at the time the uproar if the Red Sox didn't try to keep their best team ever intact? Sure, Sale and Eovaldi were injury risks, but both had had their moments in winning the title.

[Larry Cook]

Now see, this is juvenile, folks. Larry has cleared it up for us.

 

Juvenile or 100 percent accurate! At the end of the day, desperate Dave drove 3 different organizations off a cliff with his all or nothing short term plan with execution and to date, none of them have really ever recovered.

 

Ps: Miami looks to be about to exit the desperate Dave cloud and get back to respectability with some semblance of sustainability.

[moonslav59]

And I'm sure that when Henry hired DD in 2015, his plan wasn't to can him in 2019 and replace him with a guy like Bloom.

 

But if that HAD been the plan, it wouldn't have been a bad one.

 

We're lucky it worked out this way IMHO

 

I think both DD and Henry felt the window created by DD's farm sell off would last to 2020 and maybe 2021, but I do think he knew the cliff was going to happen.

 

2019 was a shocker. The "end" came too soon.

[moonslav59]

The worst possible outcome for DD would have been to spend all that capital- both financial & in young prospects trades- and not get a ring.

 

Sure, it looked and still looks like it was overkill, but nothing is a sure bet in baseball.

 

What he did really hurt our long term outlook, but those 3 seasons were incredibly exciting and that 2018 team will go down as one of the best teams of all time. The window of success should really have been 4-5 years, but the Gods of 2019 were not kind to us. (Not that I'm complaining- 4 rings in 15 years was heavenly.)

 

Had the 2018 ring been our first in 80+ years, I doubt anyone would be complaining- not that this makes everything alright.

 

Also, hardly anybody criticizes Henry, and for good reason, but you have to know he hired DD to do what he did. He could have told him, at anytime, "enough is enough- be happy with what we have and roll the dice." Going overboard was the accepted plan by the team. Mortgaging the future was part of the plan.[/

 

I wonder how things would be if DD didn’t extend Sale and resign Eovaldi after wining the WS?

Farm would have still been bare but would have been in a better financial situation. And since Sale had a year left anyway they wouldn’t have been giving up on 2019 anyway.

Might not have happened anyway but would have increased chance of keeping Betts I would guess?

 

As I just stated, I think DD and Henry felt "the window would last 5-6 years and would be worth the sell-off. (2016 to 2020 or 2021)

 

Had we done well in 2019 and 2020, maybe Betts stays, but if a re-set was always going to be in the pans, they had to know the good dimes would end, at some point, and a rebuild or some sort would have to happen- most likely without DD at the helm.

[moonslav59]

Juvenile or 100 percent accurate! At the end of the day, desperate Dave drove 3 different organizations off a cliff with his all or nothing short term plan with execution and to date, none of them have really ever recovered.

 

Ps: Miami looks to be about to exit the desperate Dave cloud and get back to respectability with some semblance of sustainability.

 

The Marlins ownership demanded the sell-offs. (The long time returning to respectability was not all on DD. They didn't even try to get back for many years.)

 

The Tigers ownership demanded a win now philosophy.

 

I have to think Henry knew what DD was going to do, when he hired him, so to me, it's not all on DD and besides, DD brought us the best 3 year stretch in 90+ years of Red Sox history. Focusing on just the bad aspects of his era is well within your rights, but did you enjoy those 3 years? 2018 was a super team- super record- super playoffs.

 

I can totally sympathize with anyone who thinks the few years we're in the middle of suck, and they do. I can understand anyone thinking 2016 to 2018 does not outweigh the 2019-2021, but to me it was, and I can't see how anyone can feel so strongly that the balance is so out of whack as to never even mention the good side of DD's era.

 

(I also feel the same about those who so strongly bash the Ben era.)

[oldtimer]

 

As I just stated, I think DD and Henry felt "the window would last 5-6 years and would be worth the sell-off. (2016 to 2020 or 2021)

 

Had we done well in 2019 and 2020, maybe Betts stays, but if a re-set was always going to be in the pans, they had to know the good dimes would end, at some point, and a rebuild or some sort would have to happen- most likely without DD at the helm.

 

Maybe Betts left just for the money or maybe there were other issues. Cora going, race related thoughts, just incompatibility with the northeast, or other issues may have been involved. As far as race is concerned, I have been in other big league parks and you always have jerks yelling in them. If it's not enough USA born African Americans on the team I am reminded that we are all of African heritage if you go back far enough. If it's not enough players of color, I would say there are quite a few, but they originate from Latino heritages. What I think is that it wasn't a main driver for Mookie, but I may be wrong. as far as Cora leaving, Mookie probably knew he would be back. Maybe he just liked the idea of being on the West coast and we were bound to lose him. We made a stong offer and he wouldn't accept it. It may play out in a positive or negative manner for us. With the length of the contract, I will probably not be around to see it.