Why was Mookie traded, exactly?

[Kimmi]

All I can really say is I'm confident that as long as Henry & Werner own the team, we will have one of the highest payrolls and we will not have mediocrity as a goal.

 

I'm with you on this one.

[Kimmi]

I don't believe that it has to be an either or picture. Having a superstar or two shouldn't make the likelihood of having numerous above average players on the field an impossibility.

 

It doesn't have to be an either/or. But something has to give, somewhere. If you're going to tie up that much money in one player, then you have to have a farm system to supply the team with a few cost controlled players.

 

And if that big contract goes sour, which it almost inevitably will, then you don't even have that superstar helping out the team. But you still have that large amount of money tied up in him.

[Kimmi]

Say Bloom achieves his goal of "sustained" title contention by hitting on low budget pick-ups like Arauz, Munoz and Arroyo, who all develop into above-average regulars (and by spitting on the proverb "you get what you pay for"). Will he then trade them for prospects whenever one nears big money status? Are Red Sox fans ok with recycled rosters every couple years, as long as the transitions don't disrupt the standings too much?

 

If so, enjoy Devers while you can, before he turns 27...

 

I don't think the roster turnover would be that drastic. Some players will agree to team friendly deals and will be extended. I hate to see our players leave or get traded, but then I always end up liking the next group just as much.

[5GoldGlovesOF,75]

I don't think the roster turnover would be that drastic. Some players will agree to team friendly deals and will be extended. I hate to see our players leave or get traded, but then I always end up liking the next group just as much.

 

I'm close -- maybe not liking -- but definitely rooting just as much (Seinfeld laundry theory).

 

But as much as I cheered for Armas, Hendu, Burks, Everett, Damon, Crisp, Ellsbury and JBJ, none were as good as Freddie Lynn...

[Kimmi]

I'm close -- maybe not liking -- but definitely rooting just as much (Seinfeld laundry theory).

 

But as much as I cheered for Armas, Hendu, Burks, Everett, Damon, Crisp, Ellsbury and JBJ, none were as good as Freddie Lynn...

 

We are always going to have our favorites, no doubt. But we do root for the team and fall in love with new players every year. I love Mookie and love what he did for our team. At the same time, I have already become attached to Verdugo and am happy to now have him on our team.

[Kimmi]

Jon Lester was one of my absolute sentimental favorites. I thought the Sox did him wrong in negotiations, but I also didn't think the Sox should top the Cubs offer in free agency. Hadn't really thought about him lately, but I saw a blurb about him getting emotional that he might have pitched his last game for the Cubs at Wrigley. Time flies.

 

Anyway, the point is that here's another beloved player that moved on, and we survived just fine. (Yes, I know that we could have benefited from having him on our team.)

[jacksonianmarch]

Lester's K rate plummeted this year and his HR allowed rate is a career high. This is also the first year where his average FB velocity didnt hit 90. Lester is trending towards done

[notin]

Lester's K rate plummeted this year and his HR allowed rate is a career high. This is also the first year where his average FB velocity didnt hit 90. Lester is trending towards done

 

But this is year 6 of his deal..

 

In the previsous 5 years, Lester posted an ERA+ of 118, which is essentially what the Sox got from Price (also ERA+ of 118) but for 354 fewer IP and for $73 million more...

[mvp 78]

But this is year 6 of his deal..

 

In the previsous 5 years, Lester posted an ERA+ of 118, which is essentially what the Sox got from Price (also ERA+ of 118) but for 354 fewer IP and for $73 million more...

 

Lester is getting that 10M buyout this offseason. I believe he still has value as a 4/5 guy who can eat innings. It'd be cool of the Sox to bring him back for one more year, but Lester may just want to go home.

[notin]

Lester is getting that 10M buyout this offseason. I believe he still has value as a 4/5 guy who can eat innings. It'd be cool of the Sox to bring him back for one more year, but Lester may just want to go home.

 

Or not...

[5GoldGlovesOF,75]

But this is year 6 of his deal..

 

In the previsous 5 years, Lester posted an ERA+ of 118, which is essentially what the Sox got from Price (also ERA+ of 118) but for 354 fewer IP and for $73 million more...

 

I was ok with letting Lester go because his body language to me looked like he could use a change of scenery (but it may have just been his frustration of getting lowballed for admitting he'd take a discount), and he partook in chicken and beer... however, I was not ok with giving more money to Price to make up for it. I didn't like Price mouthing off about Papi's HR trots after serving up gopher balls or that his ERA always soared in the postseason.

 

Red Sox history will always show that Price did indeed pitch three great games in one October title, but also that Jon Lester won twice as many postseason games and twice as many rings. And then he won again in Chicago.

[notin]

I was ok with letting Lester go because his body language to me looked like he could use a change of scenery (but it may have just been his frustration of getting lowballed for admitting he'd take a discount), and he partook in chicken and beer... however, I was not ok with giving more money to Price to make up for it. I didn't like Price mouthing off about Papi's HR trots after serving up gopher balls or that his ERA always soared in the postseason.

 

Red Sox history will always show that Price did indeed pitch three great games in one October title, but also that Jon Lester won twice as many postseason games and twice as many rings. And then he won again in Chicago.

 

 

The most overblown scandal in American Sports History.

 

In the words of then-White Sox catcher AJ Pierzynski - "I've played on three different teams, and seen that in three different clubhouses."

[Bellhorn04]

I was ok with letting Lester go because his body language to me looked like he could use a change of scenery (but it may have just been his frustration of getting lowballed for admitting he'd take a discount), and he partook in chicken and beer... however, I was not ok with giving more money to Price to make up for it. I didn't like Price mouthing off about Papi's HR trots after serving up gopher balls or that his ERA always soared in the postseason.

 

Red Sox history will always show that Price did indeed pitch three great games in one October title, but also that Jon Lester won twice as many postseason games and twice as many rings. And then he won again in Chicago.

 

The ring Price won with the Red Sox arguably offsets the one Lester won with the Cubs.

[Bellhorn04]

The most overblown scandal in American Sports History.

 

In the words of then-White Sox catcher AJ Pierzynski - "I've played on three different teams, and seen that in three different clubhouses."

 

Chicken and beer may have been overblown, but here's what's not overblown about 2011:

 

-The Red Sox had one of the worst collapses in baseball history.

 

And worse:

 

-The Red Sox subsequently lost (arguably) both the best GM and best manager in team history.

[notin]

Chicken and beer may have been overblown, but here's what's not overblown about 2011:

 

-The Red Sox had one of the worst collapses in baseball history.

 

And worse:

 

-The Red Sox subsequently lost (arguably) both the best GM and best manager in team history.

 

That is why it because so overblown.

 

The collapse of the Sox has also been tied to making the team play an unscheduled makeup doubleheader against the A's, which is always seemingly ignored in favor of the more popular "chicken and beer" fiasco that had probably been going on for years.

 

Like AJ implied, that type of behavior is ubiquitous among MLB franchises. Do we think the 2004 starting rotation did not have some sort of equivalent behavior during games they were not pitching?

[moonslav59]

It was "overblown," but the truth is Tito had lost control. He was going through some personal issues, and I'm not slamming him, but it is common to move on from managers that "lost control," even if for just 1/3 or a season.

[notin]

It was "overblown," but the truth is Tito had lost control. He was going through some personal issues, and I'm not slamming him, but it is common to move on from managers that "lost control," even if for just 1/3 or a season.

 

That he lost the team is not in doubt. That the "chicken and beer" incidents were part of it is overblown. As at least one player has said, that type of thing happens all over the league, and it is entirely possible it had been going on in Boston for a long time as well...

[mvp 78]

It was "overblown," but the truth is Tito had lost control. He was going through some personal issues, and I'm not slamming him, but it is common to move on from managers that "lost control," even if for just 1/3 or a season.

 

Lost control aka had no starting pitching left in September.

[5GoldGlovesOF,75]

That he lost the team is not in doubt. That the "chicken and beer" incidents were part of it is overblown. As at least one player has said, that type of thing happens all over the league, and it is entirely possible it had been going on in Boston for a long time as well...

 

There are many things that go on -- in the clubhouse, on airplanes, buses, in hotels on the road -- that the public never hears about. Many have to do with lifestyle choices, and that includes food, drink or other stuff that may be part of a training regimen or just something to get a guy through another night. But public perception is crucial, and when a ballclub chokes like the '11 Red Sox, and players "disrespect" their manager, then fingers will be pointed -- horizontally and vertically.

 

Tito's father-son relationship with Lester may or may not have been scarred, but no one really complained when changes were made; except when damage-control made sure to kick Tito on his way out the door. Bet that's something that doesn't happen in every city, according to the likes of AJ -- voted the most hated MLB player by his peers (for, like Canseco, telling it like it is?).

 

What most fans expect out of their players is that they just bust their asses when on the field (like we think we would, if we could). Constant hustle is why we loved Mookie or why Verdugo and Munoz would be cheered the loudest if we were there. It's why it's so vital to have young guys in the lineup trying to make a name -- and a buck; being accountable to spectators is also what's missing the most for the veterans.

 

Do you think Devers may be a bit more focused and selective if fans were in the stands booing every time he hacked and missed at a pitch in his eyes? The scores don't matter, no one's in the park, so the guy's just playing home run derby in nightly "BP" sessions...

[mvp 78]

Do you think Devers may be a bit more focused and selective if fans were in the stands booing every time he hacked and missed at a pitch in his eyes? The scores don't matter, no one's in the park, so the guy's just playing home run derby in nightly "BP" sessions...

 

No, it'd be more likely to exacerbate his struggles.

[5GoldGlovesOF,75]

No, it'd be more likely to exacerbate his struggles.

 

Why would you say that about Devers? I'd say it for JD, but Rafie has the hand-eye to rope just about any pitch in the rule book strike zone. He doesn't have to jump out of his shoes at neck-high fastballs.

[Bellhorn04]

Devers is doing pretty well of late, no?

[mvp 78]

Why would you say that about Devers? I'd say it for JD, but Rafie has the hand-eye to rope just about any pitch in the rule book strike zone. He doesn't have to jump out of his shoes at neck-high fastballs.

 

He doesn't have to, but he does. His numbers this year would normalize over 162 games.

[notin]

There are many things that go on -- in the clubhouse, on airplanes, buses, in hotels on the road -- that the public never hears about. Many have to do with lifestyle choices, and that includes food, drink or other stuff that may be part of a training regimen or just something to get a guy through another night. But public perception is crucial, and when a ballclub chokes like the '11 Red Sox, and players "disrespect" their manager, then fingers will be pointed -- horizontally and vertically.

 

Tito's father-son relationship with Lester may or may not have been scarred, but no one really complained when changes were made; except when damage-control made sure to kick Tito on his way out the door. Bet that's something that doesn't happen in every city, according to the likes of AJ -- voted the most hated MLB player by his peers (for, like Canseco, telling it like it is?).

 

What most fans expect out of their players is that they just bust their asses when on the field (like we think we would, if we could). Constant hustle is why we loved Mookie or why Verdugo and Munoz would be cheered the loudest if we were there. It's why it's so vital to have young guys in the lineup trying to make a name -- and a buck; being accountable to spectators is also what's missing the most for the veterans.

 

Do you think Devers may be a bit more focused and selective if fans were in the stands booing every time he hacked and missed at a pitch in his eyes? The scores don't matter, no one's in the park, so the guy's just playing home run derby in nightly "BP" sessions...

 

Public perception only becomes critical if the team is losing.

 

Like I said, "chicken and beer" might have been going on forever. Let's not lose sight odf the fact hat I am saying that particulr fiasco is overblown. Do we know when it really started? I would bet prior to 2011. And probably long prior.

 

But the Sox were losing, so "SCAPEGOAT TIME"!! It's the pitching staff. The guys not playing are in the locker room!! With BEER!! It's killing the team!!!

 

The Sox were in first place at the end of August that year, and guess what was happening all year long in the clubhouse? It didn't become a scandal until the team collapsed...

[5GoldGlovesOF,75]

Public perception only becomes critical if the team is losing.

 

Like I said, "chicken and beer" might have been going on forever. Let's not lose sight odf the fact hat I am saying that particulr fiasco is overblown. Do we know when it really started? I would bet prior to 2011. And probably long prior.

 

But the Sox were losing, so "SCAPEGOAT TIME"!! It's the pitching staff. The guys not playing are in the locker room!! With BEER!! It's killing the team!!!

 

The Sox were in first place at the end of August that year, and guess what was happening all year long in the clubhouse? It didn't become a scandal until the team collapsed...

 

Come on, you know they were just turning to the hooch in September, drowning their sorrows. Through August, it was all milk and cookies (wait, that's what the drunks were throwing when they got lit up that whole last month...)

[5GoldGlovesOF,75]

Devers is doing pretty well of late, no?

 

He has the balance and hand-eye to win the batting crown. All he lacks is discipline (I won't call it maturity, because those terms aren't always mutual).

 

We may need a new a thread: "Why won't Devers be traded?"

[mvp 78]

He has the balance and hand-eye to win the batting crown. All he lacks is discipline (I won't call it maturity, because those terms aren't always mutual).

 

We may need a new a thread: "Why won't Devers be traded?"

 

Because right now he's cheap and very good.

[Larry Cook]

Verdugo looks like a keeper! If we get anything out of the other two, that is a win so us!

 

Don’t get me wrong, verdugo is no Betts, but he has exceeded all my expectations thus far. Hopefully he stays healthy and keeps swinging the bat well!

[oldtimer]

Verdugo looks like a keeper! If we get anything out of the other two, that is a win so us!

 

Don’t get me wrong, verdugo is no Betts, but he has exceeded all my expectations thus far. Hopefully he stays healthy and keeps swinging the bat well!

 

Bloom did what he had to do in trading Mookie and it looks like he got real value in return. Verdugo would be a asset to any club and Jeter Downs may also make the team in later 2021. Christian Arroyo also looks like an asset so the pressure to bring Downs up early will not likely be felt.

[Kimmi]

Lester's K rate plummeted this year and his HR allowed rate is a career high. This is also the first year where his average FB velocity didnt hit 90. Lester is trending towards done

 

If he's cheap enough, I'd welcome him back with open arms.