A Realistic View at 2021: Part I

[moonslav59]

To me the summary on DD's reign vs any other GM is that when Sale and Erod went out of commission, and Workman/Hembree were traded, there was not ONE starter at AA or higher , nor a BP reliever who could be brought up and perform even at minimal level. Phillips Valdez suddenly isn't all that, and neither is Josh Taylor/Marcus Walden.

 

The pitching cupboard was truly bare, and the bus went off the cliff .

 

It is a sad state of affairs. Usually, when teams are in this boat, they have a few arms on the farm that illicit some sort of excitement upon opening up an opportunity for one or two to shine.

 

We've had 6-9 openings, at any given time this year, for anyone and everyone to show they can shine. Nobody has, except maybe Valdez for a while.

 

We've gone through 26 pitchers in 40 games. Here they are:

 

IP Pitcher ERA

42 Perez 4.07 (the only one of two with respectable numbers on the team)

34 Eovaldi 4.98

33 Weber 5.45

29 Godley 8.16

26 Brewer 5.61

23 Valdez 3.18 (the other one)

18 Brice 6.38

17 Brasier 4.32

16 Barnes 4.50

16 Osich 5.74 (traded)

15 Springs 7.36

12 Mazza 6.00

11 Hart 15.55

11 Walden 10.13

10 Hembree 5.59 (traded)

8 Stock 5.87

7 Taylor 9.82

7 Workman 4.05 (traded)

6 Hall 19.89

6 Covey 7.11

6 Triggs 6.00

5 Kickham 4.50

4 Hernandez 0.00

3 Leyer 13.50

0.2 Plawecki 0.00

0.1 Peraza 27.00

 

Of the 22 pitchers with 5 or more IP, only one pitcher is under 4.05 (Valdez). Workman, at 4.05 is gone. Perez is at 4.07 and 19 have an ERA over 4.32 (Brasier).

18 are over 4.50 (Barnes)

17 are over 4.98 (Eovaldi)

 

14 of the top IP 19 pitcher still on the team have an ERA above 5.40! Throw out Plawecki, and of the 22 pitchers who have pitched for the Sox, this year, and are still on the team, 16 have an ERA over 5.40. 15 are over 5.45 (Weber) and 14 are over 5.61 (Barsier).

 

On a 12 man staff, that means we have 7 open slots for a try-out.

 

Too bad, we have nobody to give try-outs to.

 

 

Edited September 7, 2020 by moonslav59

[d-money]

So who are the top prospects in the draft? We suck at developing pitchers. It has been awhile. Will they take another pitcher?

[moonslav59]

So who are the top prospects in the draft? We suck at developing pitchers. It has been awhile. Will they take another pitcher?

 

MLB.com reports:

 

1. Kumar Rocker, RHP, Vanderbilt

Rocker was ranked No. 23 on our Draft Top 200 in 2018 as a Georgia prepster with a ton of arm strength. There were command issues and that, along with a strong commitment to Vandy, pushed him to the 38th round. A dominant freshman year and strong start to his sophomore year, with the same high octane fastball-slider combination but with better command, makes him the clear choice atop this list.

 

2. Jack Leiter, RHP, Vanderbilt

No. 33 on the 2019 Draft Top 200 as a New Jersey prepster with an advanced feel to pitch, Al’s kid was taken in the 20th round by the Yankees last year, but everyone knew he was headed to Vandy. He pitched in just four games before the shutdown, but quickly vaulted to the top of the 2021 list as a Draft-eligible sophomore with a fastball that averaged around 92 mph and touched 96, to go along with good feel for a curve, slider and changeup.

 

3. Brady House, 3B/RHP, Winder-Barrow HS (Ga.)

Depending on who you talk to, House is either a power-hitting future third baseman or a right-handed pitching prospect with a ton of arm strength. At the plate, he has 60-grade raw power with good feel to hit. House plays shortstop now but will likely need to slide over at the next level. On the mound, the Tennessee recruit has a 92-95 mph fastball with a good changeup and decent breaking ball.

 

4. Jud Fabian, OF, Florida

Fabian had a very strong Cape Cod League last summer as an 18-year-old (he enrolled at Florida a year early) and it carried over into a strong start to his 2020 campaign. He makes a ton of hard contact and the power started showing up on the Cape; that continued this spring, with more to come. He has good speed and should be able to play center long-term.

 

5. Christian Little, RHP, Christian Brothers HS (Mo.)

Little, who is one of many top high school players at this week’s Perfect Game National Showcase, is a super-athletic and projectable right-hander committed to Vanderbilt. He has an exciting three-pitch mix with a lively fastball up to 94 mph, a solid breaking ball with good depth and a very good feel for a changeup.

 

6. Braylon Bishop, OF, Arkansas HS (Ark.)

The Arkansas commit might be the most athletic and toolsy player in the class and will show off those tools at PG National. The center fielder has incredible speed that will work on both sides of the ball. Bishop has outstanding bat speed from the left side of the plate with the ability to impact the ball and the potential to grow into excellent power.

 

7. Matt McLain, SS/OF, UCLA

In 2018, McLain was ranked No. 54 on our Draft Top 200 and was taken at the end of the first round by the D-backs, but he opted to head to UCLA. After an All-Star turn in the Cape Cod League, his bat seemed to take a big step forward this spring. He’s always had a knack for making contact, but it was louder this year, with more extra-base thump, to go along with his plus speed and the potential for him to play up the middle somewhere defensively.

 

8. Luke Leto, SS/RHP, Portage Central HS (Mich.)

The LSU recruit will get the chance to show off at the plate and on the mound at PG National and might be the best high schooler from Michigan since Drew Henson created buzz back in the 1990s. He’s a left-handed hitter with the ability to drive the ball to all fields. His speed and athleticism make him a threat on the basepaths and he has the actions to stick at shortstop. He also has a low-90s fastball with a good hard breaking ball on the mound.

 

9. Adrian Del Castillo, C, Miami

Del Castillo snuck into the back end of our Top 200 in 2018, at No. 198, as a Miami area prepster with a strong commitment to attend his hometown school. Since he joined the Hurricanes, he’s done nothing but hit from the left side -- for average and power and with more walks than strikeouts. Whether he can stick behind the plate remains to be seen, but he’s also shown he can capably handle an outfield corner.

 

10. Tyree Reed, OF, American Canyon HS (Calif.)

This Northern California standout is committed to attend Oregon State should the 2021 Draft not work out. The left-handed hitter has long limbs and a projectable frame, one that should continue to add strength and allow him to grow into even more power with excellent bat speed. Reed runs well and is a threat on the basepaths while also showing the ability to play center field long-term.

 

11. Izaac Pacheco, SS/3B, Friendswood HS (Tex.)

Another PG National participant, Pacheco has long stood out because of the damage he can do from the left side of the plate. There’s a ton of present, and even more future, power with excellent bat speed. He has smooth and athletic actions defensively, with plenty of arm, giving him the chance to play short. If the Texas A&M recruit outgrows shortstop, he could be an outstanding fit at third base with the offensive profile to match.

 

12. Alex Binelas, 3B, Louisville

The Wisconsin high school ranks produced first-rounder Jarred Kelenic in 2018, but it also included Binelas, who was a 35th-round pick of the Nationals before heading to Louisville. He put up excellent power numbers as a freshman, though he played in just two games this spring because of a hand injury. The pop from the left side is legit; whether he shows it off as a third baseman, where he’s played almost exclusively at Louisville, remains to be seen.

 

13. Marcelo Mayer, SS, Eastlake HS (Calif.)

This Southern Cal commit is the best player in the San Diego area for 2021 and the top prep prospect in all of Southern California. He has a pretty left-handed swing and makes a ton of hard contact, with power to come. The 6-foot-3 infielder has all the tools to play shortstop long-term, with good actions and hands to go along with a strong arm.

 

14. Gunnar Hoglund, RHP, Ole Miss

Ranked No. 66 on our 2018 Draft Top 200, Hoglund was selected in Competitive Balance Round A by the Pirates that June as a bit of a pop-up guy from the Florida high school ranks. He scuffled as a freshman, but was dominant out of the gate as a sophomore, with a fastball that touches the mid-90s with very good breaking stuff and a changeup that has improved.

 

15. Jaden Hill, RHP, LSU

Tall and athletic, Hill was No. 78 on our Draft Top 200 in 2018 as a high schooler who was a two-sport star and was drafted by the Cardinals in the 38th round before heading to LSU. Based on pure stuff and upside, he belongs higher on this list, with a low-90s fastball, an outstanding changeup and an improving slider. But he was shut down with an elbow strain in his freshman year and while he was dominant this spring, it was in a relief role and he’ll have to show he’s healthy to move up boards in 2021.

 

16. Ian Moller, C, Wahlert HS (Iowa)

The history of high schoolers from Iowa doing well in the Draft is sparse, but Moller is hoping to buck that trend. The LSU recruit who will be at PG National is a strong and powerful backstop who has shown the ability to barrel up the baseball against good competition, with pop to all fields. He also had good catch and throw skills, showing athleticism behind the plate and a quick release.

 

17. Colton Cowser, OF, Sam Houston State

Cowser hails from a slightly smaller program and conference than many other college players on this list, but jumped on the map with a big freshman season at Sam Houston State, then performed well for the U.S. Collegiate National Team last summer. He has a knack for barreling up the baseball; how much power he shows next year could impact his Draft stock.

 

18. Sal Frelick, OF, Boston College

Frelick played multiple sports as a high schooler in Massachusetts and went undrafted in high school. He had a huge freshman season at Boston College, showing the ability to make consistent contact with an advanced approach from the left side of the plate that has led to him drawing more walks than strikeouts so far in his career. He has plus speed and has already shown a knack for stealing bases.

 

19. Jordan Lawlar, SS, Jesuit Prep HS (Texas)

Committed to Vanderbilt, Lawlar is also currently at PG National showing off his tools. He’s a premium athlete who has every chance to stay up the middle at shortstop. He has good first-step quickness and enough arm to play the premium position. He can really run and has shown power potential and a solid approach from the right side of the plate.

 

20. Ethan Wilson, OF, South Alabama

Wilson was an under-the-radar high school player who was a multi-sport standout in Alabama and went undrafted before heading to South Alabama. He served notice that he’ll be worth tracking for the 2021 Draft when he hit 17 homers as a freshman. He has legitimate power from the left side of the plate and fits best in an outfield corner.

[moonslav59]

Deivy Grullon, picked up off waivers by the Sox, has 46 HRs in 816 ABs in AAA & AA over the last 2.5 seasons.

 

The .354 OBP in AAA is not bad, either.

[harmony]

I said "not likely a top contender." I'm not writing off 2021, but I'm also not going to set my expectations on us being top contenders a year after being one of baseball's worst teams.

It's hard to believe the 2021 Red Sox will have more talent than the 2019 club that won 84 games.

 

The Red Sox continue to be a fascinating franchise to follow.

[5GoldGlovesOF,75]

As others have mentioned, one of the more disappointing aspects of this worst-ever pitching staff and last place season is that through it all, not one minor league Red Sox pitcher has been brought up and given a shot.

 

We all know it's all about "the arbitration clock", because anyone that says "but... they're not ready" hasn't really been watching the alternatives Boston has been running out to the mound night after agonizing night. Can there possibly be any better time for somebody to get his feet wet than in the least stressful debut in MLB history, with no fans and no pennant race pressure whatsoever?

[Bellhorn04]

That's a big "if," and you are also counting 2019 as not being "destroyed." Sure, we had a good team, on paper, and injuries doomed us, but we sucked, and that's on DD a lot more than this year's team should be "on Bloom."

 

I doubt we are a top contender in 2021. If Bloom works some magic, we can be, but it looks, to me, like 3 bad year in a row. (2019-2021).

 

There's no way you can call the 2019 team a bad team. It was the same team as the 2018 champs. It was one of the pre-season favorites. It had a Pythagorean record of 87-75.

[Bellhorn04]

DD left Bloom with bare cupboards and bloated contracts of aging stars.

 

That's wild hyperbole about the contracts.

 

Ben left worse contracts.

[dgalehouse]

There's no way you can call the 2019 team a bad team. It was the same team as the 2018 champs. It was one of the pre-season favorites. It had a Pythagorean record of 87-75.

 

Bell , You have a certain " Dilbert " logic about things . That is a good thing to have .

[oldtimer]

MLB.com reports:

 

1. Kumar Rocker, RHP, Vanderbilt

Rocker was ranked No. 23 on our Draft Top 200 in 2018 as a Georgia prepster with a ton of arm strength. There were command issues and that, along with a strong commitment to Vandy, pushed him to the 38th round. A dominant freshman year and strong start to his sophomore year, with the same high octane fastball-slider combination but with better command, makes him the clear choice atop this list.

 

2. Jack Leiter, RHP, Vanderbilt

No. 33 on the 2019 Draft Top 200 as a New Jersey prepster with an advanced feel to pitch, Al’s kid was taken in the 20th round by the Yankees last year, but everyone knew he was headed to Vandy. He pitched in just four games before the shutdown, but quickly vaulted to the top of the 2021 list as a Draft-eligible sophomore with a fastball that averaged around 92 mph and touched 96, to go along with good feel for a curve, slider and changeup.

 

3. Brady House, 3B/RHP, Winder-Barrow HS (Ga.)

Depending on who you talk to, House is either a power-hitting future third baseman or a right-handed pitching prospect with a ton of arm strength. At the plate, he has 60-grade raw power with good feel to hit. House plays shortstop now but will likely need to slide over at the next level. On the mound, the Tennessee recruit has a 92-95 mph fastball with a good changeup and decent breaking ball.

 

4. Jud Fabian, OF, Florida

Fabian had a very strong Cape Cod League last summer as an 18-year-old (he enrolled at Florida a year early) and it carried over into a strong start to his 2020 campaign. He makes a ton of hard contact and the power started showing up on the Cape; that continued this spring, with more to come. He has good speed and should be able to play center long-term.

 

5. Christian Little, RHP, Christian Brothers HS (Mo.)

Little, who is one of many top high school players at this week’s Perfect Game National Showcase, is a super-athletic and projectable right-hander committed to Vanderbilt. He has an exciting three-pitch mix with a lively fastball up to 94 mph, a solid breaking ball with good depth and a very good feel for a changeup.

 

6. Braylon Bishop, OF, Arkansas HS (Ark.)

The Arkansas commit might be the most athletic and toolsy player in the class and will show off those tools at PG National. The center fielder has incredible speed that will work on both sides of the ball. Bishop has outstanding bat speed from the left side of the plate with the ability to impact the ball and the potential to grow into excellent power.

 

7. Matt McLain, SS/OF, UCLA

In 2018, McLain was ranked No. 54 on our Draft Top 200 and was taken at the end of the first round by the D-backs, but he opted to head to UCLA. After an All-Star turn in the Cape Cod League, his bat seemed to take a big step forward this spring. He’s always had a knack for making contact, but it was louder this year, with more extra-base thump, to go along with his plus speed and the potential for him to play up the middle somewhere defensively.

 

8. Luke Leto, SS/RHP, Portage Central HS (Mich.)

The LSU recruit will get the chance to show off at the plate and on the mound at PG National and might be the best high schooler from Michigan since Drew Henson created buzz back in the 1990s. He’s a left-handed hitter with the ability to drive the ball to all fields. His speed and athleticism make him a threat on the basepaths and he has the actions to stick at shortstop. He also has a low-90s fastball with a good hard breaking ball on the mound.

 

9. Adrian Del Castillo, C, Miami

Del Castillo snuck into the back end of our Top 200 in 2018, at No. 198, as a Miami area prepster with a strong commitment to attend his hometown school. Since he joined the Hurricanes, he’s done nothing but hit from the left side -- for average and power and with more walks than strikeouts. Whether he can stick behind the plate remains to be seen, but he’s also shown he can capably handle an outfield corner.

 

10. Tyree Reed, OF, American Canyon HS (Calif.)

This Northern California standout is committed to attend Oregon State should the 2021 Draft not work out. The left-handed hitter has long limbs and a projectable frame, one that should continue to add strength and allow him to grow into even more power with excellent bat speed. Reed runs well and is a threat on the basepaths while also showing the ability to play center field long-term.

 

11. Izaac Pacheco, SS/3B, Friendswood HS (Tex.)

Another PG National participant, Pacheco has long stood out because of the damage he can do from the left side of the plate. There’s a ton of present, and even more future, power with excellent bat speed. He has smooth and athletic actions defensively, with plenty of arm, giving him the chance to play short. If the Texas A&M recruit outgrows shortstop, he could be an outstanding fit at third base with the offensive profile to match.

 

12. Alex Binelas, 3B, Louisville

The Wisconsin high school ranks produced first-rounder Jarred Kelenic in 2018, but it also included Binelas, who was a 35th-round pick of the Nationals before heading to Louisville. He put up excellent power numbers as a freshman, though he played in just two games this spring because of a hand injury. The pop from the left side is legit; whether he shows it off as a third baseman, where he’s played almost exclusively at Louisville, remains to be seen.

 

13. Marcelo Mayer, SS, Eastlake HS (Calif.)

This Southern Cal commit is the best player in the San Diego area for 2021 and the top prep prospect in all of Southern California. He has a pretty left-handed swing and makes a ton of hard contact, with power to come. The 6-foot-3 infielder has all the tools to play shortstop long-term, with good actions and hands to go along with a strong arm.

 

14. Gunnar Hoglund, RHP, Ole Miss

Ranked No. 66 on our 2018 Draft Top 200, Hoglund was selected in Competitive Balance Round A by the Pirates that June as a bit of a pop-up guy from the Florida high school ranks. He scuffled as a freshman, but was dominant out of the gate as a sophomore, with a fastball that touches the mid-90s with very good breaking stuff and a changeup that has improved.

 

15. Jaden Hill, RHP, LSU

Tall and athletic, Hill was No. 78 on our Draft Top 200 in 2018 as a high schooler who was a two-sport star and was drafted by the Cardinals in the 38th round before heading to LSU. Based on pure stuff and upside, he belongs higher on this list, with a low-90s fastball, an outstanding changeup and an improving slider. But he was shut down with an elbow strain in his freshman year and while he was dominant this spring, it was in a relief role and he’ll have to show he’s healthy to move up boards in 2021.

 

16. Ian Moller, C, Wahlert HS (Iowa)

The history of high schoolers from Iowa doing well in the Draft is sparse, but Moller is hoping to buck that trend. The LSU recruit who will be at PG National is a strong and powerful backstop who has shown the ability to barrel up the baseball against good competition, with pop to all fields. He also had good catch and throw skills, showing athleticism behind the plate and a quick release.

 

17. Colton Cowser, OF, Sam Houston State

Cowser hails from a slightly smaller program and conference than many other college players on this list, but jumped on the map with a big freshman season at Sam Houston State, then performed well for the U.S. Collegiate National Team last summer. He has a knack for barreling up the baseball; how much power he shows next year could impact his Draft stock.

 

18. Sal Frelick, OF, Boston College

Frelick played multiple sports as a high schooler in Massachusetts and went undrafted in high school. He had a huge freshman season at Boston College, showing the ability to make consistent contact with an advanced approach from the left side of the plate that has led to him drawing more walks than strikeouts so far in his career. He has plus speed and has already shown a knack for stealing bases.

 

19. Jordan Lawlar, SS, Jesuit Prep HS (Texas)

Committed to Vanderbilt, Lawlar is also currently at PG National showing off his tools. He’s a premium athlete who has every chance to stay up the middle at shortstop. He has good first-step quickness and enough arm to play the premium position. He can really run and has shown power potential and a solid approach from the right side of the plate.

 

20. Ethan Wilson, OF, South Alabama

Wilson was an under-the-radar high school player who was a multi-sport standout in Alabama and went undrafted before heading to South Alabama. He served notice that he’ll be worth tracking for the 2021 Draft when he hit 17 homers as a freshman. He has legitimate power from the left side of the plate and fits best in an outfield corner.

 

I hope they go after pitching prospects. Maybe Blooms changes to player development people will see an improvement. What 5 Golden Gloves says about mt bringing up pitching prospects is probably true. We don't bring them up under the guise of their not ready. The truth is probably more to do with arbitration years.

[Kimmi]

I just think the trust in Bloom is misplaced . Fifteen years in the game , never won a championship . Now his plan is to pretty much start from scratch with the Sox. I don't have much confidence in the guy . Not trying to argue with anybody . I just think Bloom is a small market guy who has become overrated .

 

Maybe he is overrated. We will find out soon enough. My trust in Bloom stems from the job he did with the Rays and the job that Friedman, his mentor, is doing with the Dodgers, along with the fact that I 100% agree with his team building philosophy.

 

How much experience did Theo have coming into the job? Theo had the same team building philosophy. IMO, the correct way to build a team for sustained success.

 

Perhaps it's that I have trust in that philosophy more so than in the person.

[Kimmi]

Well , the team's record should count for something . The results have to count for something . It can't be all about the process . Maybe I just don't have the patience for five year plans . Bloom has not earned the " In Bloom we trust " faith . This is his team now . And it is not good . I do hope it is better next year .

 

The process works. It can't be completed in one year when the previous GM so completely undid the process.

[Kimmi]

15 years but all with Tampa. Where budget proposals go to die.

 

He did keep that seemingly irrelevant team competitive.

 

I think Dombrowski is overrated. Any bozo can win when handed a top notch farm system and a $220 million dollar budget. Doing it without destroying the future is the trick (and really, not even a tough trick)...

 

^^^

[Kimmi]

It is not so easy to stay on top for several years while maintaining a strong farm . The system is designed to make it a " tough trick." Anyway , I'm not the kind of fan who is content with losing as long as I can say , " The future looks bright ."

 

It's not easy, but it's doable, especially when your owner is willing to spend, which Henry is.

 

Look at the Dodgers.

[dgalehouse]

Maybe he is overrated. We will find out soon enough. My trust in Bloom stems from the job he did with the Rays and the job that Friedman, his mentor, is doing with the Dodgers, along with the fact that I 100% agree with his team building philosophy.

 

How much experience did Theo have coming into the job? Theo had the same team building philosophy. IMO, the correct way to build a team for sustained success.

 

Perhaps it's that I have trust in that philosophy more so than in the person.

 

Comparisons to Theo remind me of the comparisons to Pedro . How many times have we heard , " This guy could be the next Pedro " ? It never seems to work out like that however .

[Kimmi]

There's no way you can call the 2019 team a bad team. It was the same team as the 2018 champs. It was one of the pre-season favorites. It had a Pythagorean record of 87-75.

 

Agreed. I do not blame Dombrowski for 2019.

[moonslav59]

That's wild hyperbole about the contracts.

 

Ben left worse contracts.

 

I never said DD left worse contracts than Ben.

 

That being said:

 

DD to Bloom

$31M x 3 Price

$30M x 3 + $27.5M x 2 Sale

$17M x 3 Eovaldi

 

Ben to DD

$22.8M x 3 HanRam

$18M x 4 Pablito

$11.7M x4 Castillo (not counted against tax)

$10M x 2 Allen Craig

 

I'm not so sure one is much worse than the other, but the jury is still out on some of DD's contracts.

[moonslav59]

Agreed. I do not blame Dombrowski for 2019.

 

I don't either, but it was pretty bad and was the start of the slide towards the cliff.

 

(Yes, it was hyperbole to call it part of the cliff.)

Edited September 8, 2020 by moonslav59

[Kimmi]

I don't either, but it was pretty bad and was the start of the slide towards the cliff.

 

(Yes, it was hyperbole to call it part of the cliff.)

 

I have always felt that if a team looks good on paper entering the season, then the GM has done his job. The Sox, on paper, should have been a top contending team in 2019, which is why I don't blame Dombrowski for the results of that year.

 

As far as the cliff goes, we are on the same page. Fortunately, I am confident that Bloom can have us back in contention in 2021 with the right moves and that the cliff will be short lived.

[notin]

That's wild hyperbole about the contracts.

 

Ben left worse contracts.

 

It’s also only one half of the complaint.

 

One way to survive expensive, unproductive contracts is to have a farm that supplies cheap productivity (through either promotion or trade). Dombrowski inherited one. Bloom did not...

[Bellhorn04]

It’s also only one half of the complaint.

 

One way to survive expensive, unproductive contracts is to have a farm that supplies cheap productivity (through either promotion or trade). Dombrowski inherited one. Bloom did not...

 

Yep, I realize all that. I was merely addressing the "bloated contracts of aging stars" hyperbole, which came right on top of moon's claim of 2019 being a bad team.

 

Obviously there are sound reasons for criticizing DD. But there's no need to distort things, either.

[Bellhorn04]

I never said DD left worse contracts than Ben.

 

That being said:

 

DD to Bloom

$31M x 3 Price

$30M x 3 + $27.5M x 2 Sale

$17M x 3 Eovaldi

 

Ben to DD

$22.8M x 3 HanRam

$18M x 4 Pablito

$11.7M x4 Castillo (not counted against tax)

$10M x 2 Allen Craig

 

I'm not so sure one is much worse than the other, but the jury is still out on some of DD's contracts.

 

The jury is out on DD's hand-me-downs, agreed.

 

But we know one thing - those 4 you listed for Ben add up to zero WAR or less.

[mvp 78]

Yep, I realize all that. I was merely addressing the "bloated contracts of aging stars" hyperbole, which came right on top of moon's claim of 2019 being a bad team.

 

Obviously there are sound reasons for criticizing DD. But there's no need to distort things, either.

 

Distort things to fit the "cliff" narrative.

[moonslav59]

The jury is out on DD's hand-me-downs, agreed.

 

But we know one thing - those 4 you listed for Ben add up to zero WAR or less.

 

I didn't distort this.

 

I never said Ben left DD more or worse bloated deals than DD left Bloom, but one could argue he did.

 

DD left Bloom too many bloated contracts. That's not hyperbole or distortion.

[mvp 78]

The jury is out on DD's hand-me-downs, agreed.

 

But we know one thing - those 4 you listed for Ben add up to zero WAR or less.

 

Gee, I'm not sure if it's worse to sign Sale/Eovaldi/Price or Hanley/Sandoval/Craig/Castillo!!! Total mystery!

[moonslav59]

Distort things to fit the "cliff" narrative.

 

Yes, I admit I distorted it by calling 2019 part of "the cliff," but I did not distort the things Bell was talking about in this response.

 

Near bare cupboards & bloated contracts handed over to Bloom.

[notin]

Gee, I'm not sure if it's worse to sign Sale/Eovaldi/Price or Hanley/Sandoval/Craig/Castillo!!! Total mystery!

 

 

The biggest difference was at least we had some minor league talent to cover the bad contracts under Cherington (who technically did not sign Craig)...

[moonslav59]

The biggest difference was at least we had some minor league talent to cover the bad contracts under Cherington (who technically did not sign Craig)...

 

He did acquire the contract of Craig, though, but the deal also shed some money (Lackey), so it wasn't as bad as it looked.

 

Although many of the prospects Ben handed over to DD have not looked all that great, at the time, they were rated highly and many brought back nice returns via trade due to that perceived value.

 

The farm DD handed over to Bloom is so far below what Ben handed to DD, it's not even close.

 

The bloated contracts look to be about even.

 

DD handed over more money owed, but the players were not complete deadwoods like HanRam, Pablito & Castillo were.

[mvp 78]

He did acquire the contract of Craig, though, but the deal also shed some money (Lackey), so it wasn't as bad as it looked.

 

Although many of the prospects Ben handed over to DD have not looked all that great, at the time, they were rated highly and many brought back nice returns via trade due to that perceived value.

 

The farm DD handed over to Bloom is so far below what Ben handed to DD, it's not even close.

 

The bloated contracts look to be about even.

 

DD handed over more money owed, but the players were not complete deadwoods like HanRam, Pablito & Castillo were.

 

Was Lackey good in 2015 - 2016 or no? Seems like those teams needed Lackey on the staff. Maybe it was a good move if you only root for the checkbook.

[moonslav59]

Was Lackey good in 2015 - 2016 or no? Seems like those teams needed Lackey on the staff. Maybe it was a good move if you only root for the checkbook.

 

I was clearly talking about only the money, as in bloated contracts handed over to the next GM.