Red Sox 2020 Starting Rotation

[notin]

No, Downs can't be flipped for pitching.

 

Sure he can. He’s a legitimate prospect. BA top 100 and MLB.com top 50 this year.

 

Not sure what pitcher he gets, but he certainly can be flipped...

[a700hitter]

Sure he can. He’s a legitimate prospect. BA top 100 and MLB.com top 50 this year.

 

Not sure what pitcher he gets, but he certainly can be flipped...

Don't hold you breath that he alone can bring back a pitcher. He can't, and he will not.

[notin]

Don't hold you breath that he alone can bring back a pitcher. He can't, and he will not.

 

He might not do it alone, but no one ever said he had to...

[a700hitter]

He might not do it alone, but no one ever said he had to...

Jacko said that he could be flipped for a pitcher. I maintain that he cannot. Bloom should have gotten on pitching prospect in that deal. He did not.

[notin]

Jacko said that he could be flipped for a pitcher. I maintain that he cannot. Bloom should have gotten on pitching prospect in that deal. He did not.

 

He should have, but the Dodgers were reluctant to deal any of their pitching prospects. In the original deal, a third team had to be brought in to get a pitching prospect.

 

On the bright side, you mind be the only person in the world who thinks Jeter Downs is worthless, and since you’re not a GM, maybe he can be dealt...

[a700hitter]

He should have, but the Dodgers were reluctant to deal any of their pitching prospects. In the original deal, a third team had to be brought in to get a pitching prospect.

 

On the bright side, you mind be the only person in the world who thinks Jeter Downs is worthless, and since you’re not a GM, maybe he can be dealt...

I don't think Downs is worthless, but he is nothing more than a medium trading chip.

[Behindenemylines]

EO

Perez

Weber

???

 

Osich is going to start tomorrow as an opener followed by Godley.

 

It’s hope you get the good Nasty Nate and then pray for rain. This year’s

Sox is how important good starting pitching Is needed to be a contender.

[Behindenemylines]

You can not hit your way to a championship.

[Larry Cook]

You can not hit your way to a championship.

 

Amen! Pitching, defense and timely hitting is the recipe!

[harmony]

The concept of a starting rotation may be outdated as expectations of a starting pitcher have changed.

 

The division-leading Tampa Bay Rays are 19-10 despite recording no quality starts from their rotation.

 

Meanwhile Seattle's six young starters have combined for 13 quality starts as the 11-19 Mariners are in a race to the bottom with the Red Sox, who have four quality starts.

Edited August 23, 2020 by harmony

[Kimmi]

The concept of a starting rotation may be outdated as expectations of a starting pitcher have changed.

 

The division-leading Tampa Bay Rays are 19-10 despite recording no quality starts from their rotation.

 

Meanwhile Seattle's six young starters have combined for 13 quality starts as the 11-19 Mariners are in a race to the bottom with the Red Sox, who have four quality starts.

 

I really do not like the way that the expectations for starting pitchers have gradually lessened over the years, and how 'starting' pitching has become so bullpen oriented.

[5GoldGlovesOF,75]

I really do not like the way that the expectations for starting pitchers have gradually lessened over the years, and how 'starting' pitching has become so bullpen oriented.

 

It really is ironic; since no one disputes that modern players are bigger/stronger/faster, why don't starters have the stamina to throw more than six innings? Some modern analysts may present scientific data that shows a correlation of increased velo with more trauma to shoulders and elbows, while others will undoubtedly argue against high pitch counts and innings pitched when protecting their investment in elite starters.

 

It's funny how modern leaders in IP are happy to break 200 -- remember, that was ERod's goal to reach for the first time in 2019 -- when aces half a century ago regularly broke 300. Nearly all those guys were smaller/weaker/slower...

[notin]

I really do not like the way that the expectations for starting pitchers have gradually lessened over the years, and how 'starting' pitching has become so bullpen oriented.

 

It’s been going on for your entire life.

 

As 5GG said, 200 IP is an accomplishment nowadays.

 

Going back even further than he did, there used to be no such thing as a pitching rotation. You pitched when you felt good. And if you weren’t starting, you went to the bullpen. Christy Mathewson and Joe McGinnity used combine to to give the Giants 100 appearances and 80-90 starts year in and year out.

 

Nowadays, not only do we have dedicated relief pitchers, they have clearly defined roles. Some of them insanely specialized, like facing tough left-handed hitters, and no one else. (Until recent stupid rules were implemented.)

[illinoisredsox]

It really is ironic; since no one disputes that modern players are bigger/stronger/faster, why don't starters have the stamina to throw more than six innings? Some modern analysts may present scientific data that shows a correlation of increased velo with more trauma to shoulders and elbows, while others will undoubtedly argue against high pitch counts and innings pitched when protecting their investment in elite starters.

 

It's funny how modern leaders in IP are happy to break 200 -- remember, that was ERod's goal to reach for the first time in 2019 -- when aces half a century ago regularly broke 300. Nearly all those guys were smaller/weaker/slower...

 

It's exactly the emphasis on velocity. For one thing, we've developed a bunch of throwers, not pitchers. Throwers think they have to go 100% on every pitch. The aces of yesteryear could throw hard when they needed to, but they knew that 85% would get the job done most of the time. They had the extra gear when they needed it. Old timers knew how to pitch, how to set hitters up. They called their own game and always had since they were kids. Can you imagine Bob Gibson being told the pitches would be called from the bench?

[dgalehouse]

Pitchers continue to drop like flies in this strangest of seasons . Disproves the idea that spring training is overrated.

[Kimmi]

It really is ironic; since no one disputes that modern players are bigger/stronger/faster, why don't starters have the stamina to throw more than six innings? Some modern analysts may present scientific data that shows a correlation of increased velo with more trauma to shoulders and elbows, while others will undoubtedly argue against high pitch counts and innings pitched when protecting their investment in elite starters.

 

It's funny how modern leaders in IP are happy to break 200 -- remember, that was ERod's goal to reach for the first time in 2019 -- when aces half a century ago regularly broke 300. Nearly all those guys were smaller/weaker/slower...

 

It is kind of interesting that technology and advancements in medicine/health are improving the performances of athletes in almost every area, but not in IP for starters. I am sure you hit on the two key points you mentioned in your post.

 

I don't go back as far as some of you do, but I miss the days of complete games thrown by starters, or at least having the starter go 7 innings, then turning the game over to the set up man and the closer. I hate that the bullpen is responsible for such a large part of most games.

[mvp 78]

It really is ironic; since no one disputes that modern players are bigger/stronger/faster, why don't starters have the stamina to throw more than six innings? Some modern analysts may present scientific data that shows a correlation of increased velo with more trauma to shoulders and elbows, while others will undoubtedly argue against high pitch counts and innings pitched when protecting their investment in elite starters.

 

It's funny how modern leaders in IP are happy to break 200 -- remember, that was ERod's goal to reach for the first time in 2019 -- when aces half a century ago regularly broke 300. Nearly all those guys were smaller/weaker/slower...

 

And so were the hitters.

[Kimmi]

It’s been going on for your entire life.

 

As 5GG said, 200 IP is an accomplishment nowadays.

 

Going back even further than he did, there used to be no such thing as a pitching rotation. You pitched when you felt good. And if you weren’t starting, you went to the bullpen. Christy Mathewson and Joe McGinnity used combine to to give the Giants 100 appearances and 80-90 starts year in and year out.

 

Nowadays, not only do we have dedicated relief pitchers, they have clearly defined roles. Some of them insanely specialized, like facing tough left-handed hitters, and no one else. (Until recent stupid rules were implemented.)

 

First off, thank goodness for the implementation of the above mentioned stupid rule. As I mentioned in my previous post, I really dislike the role the bullpen has taken on in recent years. In terms of pitching, I would love to go back to the days of Nolan Ryan (though I never saw him pitch in his prime) when pitchers were actually intimidating and could pitch very deep into games.

 

We are such wusses these days.

[mvp 78]

It is kind of interesting that technology and advancements in medicine/health are improving the performances of athletes in almost every area, but not in IP for starters. I am sure you hit on the two key points you mentioned in your post.

 

I don't go back as far as some of you do, but I miss the days of complete games thrown by starters, or at least having the starter go 7 innings, then turning the game over to the set up man and the closer. I hate that the bullpen is responsible for such a large part of most games.

Medecine may be improving, but the human body is still the same. It's not really built to throw 100 mph. These pitchers are pushing their bodies to their physical limits and often paying the price for it.

[Kimmi]

Pitchers continue to drop like flies in this strangest of seasons . Disproves the idea that spring training is overrated.

 

I saw an interesting tweet from Olney this morning:

 

Buster Olney

 

@Buster_ESPN

·

34m

 

 

The explosion of IL numbers:

Pitchers On IL - First 28 Days of Season Since 2018

2020 108

2019 41

2018 38

>20 for coronavirus

Wrote in Sunday column many execs assume a big part of the increase is players/teams choosing to focus on 2021, w/o formally opting out.

 

He acknowledges that many of the IL stints are due to the coronavirus, but that is still a significant increase.

 

That said, Olney's last sentence really caught my attention. Am I interpreting this correctly as saying that many players are going on the IL to bypass opting out, so that they can still get paid?

[Kimmi]

Medecine may be improving, but the human body is still the same. It's not really built to throw 100 mph. These pitchers are pushing their bodies to their physical limits and often paying the price for it.

 

I mostly agree with this, but while the human body may still be the same, training and strength and conditioning methods have improved, which should allow pitchers bodies to better withstand the strain. Or at least, I would think so.

 

Athletes can run faster, jump higher, etc. So why can't they throw harder?

[mvp 78]

I saw an interesting tweet from Olney this morning:

 

Buster Olney

 

@Buster_ESPN

·

34m

 

 

The explosion of IL numbers:

Pitchers On IL - First 28 Days of Season Since 2018

2020 108

2019 41

2018 38

>20 for coronavirus

Wrote in Sunday column many execs assume a big part of the increase is players/teams choosing to focus on 2021, w/o formally opting out.

 

He acknowledges that many of the IL stints are due to the coronavirus, but that is still a significant increase.

 

That said, Olney's last sentence really caught my attention. Am I interpreting this correctly as saying that many players are going on the IL to bypass opting out, so that they can still get paid?

 

I think he's inferring that people are just getting a little banged up and realizing that it may not be worth while to pitch through it when this season is meaningless and one big outbreak could doom the league. I don't think they are intentionally trying to skirt the opting out stuff. Let's say you go on the 10 day IL and then need to rehab for 2 weeks after. That's already a third of the season out the window.

[Kimmi]

I think he's inferring that people are just getting a little banged up and realizing that it may not be worth while to pitch through it when this season is meaningless and one big outbreak could doom the league. I don't think they are intentionally trying to skirt the opting out stuff. Let's say you go on the 10 day IL and then need to rehab for 2 weeks after. That's already a third of the season out the window.

 

That makes sense.

[Bellhorn04]

Athletes can run faster, jump higher, etc. So why can't they throw harder?

 

Maybe because throwing a baseball harder falls in the unnatural strain category.

 

Throwing baseballs has always done an extraordinary amount of damage to pitchers' arms. So many careers have been ended early by injury.

 

And a guy like Nolan Ryan has always been a true exception, a physical freak.

[mvp 78]

Maybe because throwing a baseball harder falls in the unnatural strain category.

 

Throwing baseballs has always done an extraordinary amount of damage to pitchers' arms. So many careers have been ended early by injury.

 

And a guy like Nolan Ryan has always been a true exception, a physical freak.

 

And the pitchers we all remember from 1900 - 1980 are the guys who lasted a long time. We don't talk about guys that flamed out due to injury all that often. It's the rose colored glasses of looking at how things once were.

[moonslav59]

And the pitchers we all remember from 1900 - 1980 are the guys who lasted a long time. We don't talk about guys that flamed out due to injury all that often. It's the rose colored glasses of looking at how things once were.

 

True, but nobody pitches over 240 IP every year or even 220 IP for 10 years, like many did in the past.

[mvp 78]

True, but nobody pitches over 240 IP every year or even 220 IP for 10 years, like many did in the past.

 

How many? What %?

 

What do you think changed in the game?

[notin]

How many? What %?

 

What do you think changed in the game?

 

A deeper talent pool...

[Kimmi]

Maybe because throwing a baseball harder falls in the unnatural strain category.

 

Throwing baseballs has always done an extraordinary amount of damage to pitchers' arms. So many careers have been ended early by injury.

 

And a guy like Nolan Ryan has always been a true exception, a physical freak.

 

I suppose that's true. I'm thinking about figure skaters (female in this case), who not too long ago were completing double jumps when at the top of their games. These days, it's hard to compete if you're not doing a quad. That seems like an unnatural strain on one's body.

[notin]

How many? What %?

 

 

Cy Young, for example, threw at least 300 IP for 17 consecutive years. The streak broke for him at age 40, when he was limited to 299 IP...