A Realistic View at 2020: Part II

[dgalehouse]

Right. Because if they don’t have. Cy Young Award by the time they’re 23, their obviously Career Minor League Material...

 

That is so typical of your type of responses that we have come to know and love . The " gross exaggeration defense " .

[moonslav59]

What evidence suggests the trade could be made without including Logan Allen?

 

Negotiations typically include numerous permutations and the resulting trade represents the product of that give-and-take,

 

I remember reading it some where, but who knows if it's true.

[Nick]

The worst part about that, is that the deal could probably have been made without adding him.

 

All in all, though, not many of these deals look bad. The Thornburg deal sucked due to injury, and Espinoza has been hurt, so that deal does not look bad.

 

I wish we had Allen, Buttrey and Dubon, but none of them would have made us a winner, this year.

 

The Peacre & Eovaldi trades were a big part of the 2018 championship season.

 

The Nunez and Ziegler trades worked well for us but did not really contribute to a ring. (One could argue the Sale & Kimbrel deals were not essential to the 2018 ring, either.)

 

Ding, ding, ding, we have a winner. All in all, though, not many of these deals look bad.

 

Chris Sale trade was good and I'd still do it. In hindsight, extending him early was the mistake. We could have gotten him cheaper had we waited.

Edited September 8, 2020 by Nick

[notin]

That is so typical of your type of responses that we have come to know and love . The " gross exaggeration defense " .

 

As opposed to the “His stats were unexviting for the first 35 innings so clearly he was nothing” argument?

[notin]

He might yet figure it out . It's just that I don't get the regret about moving him.

 

He’d still be better than 4/5 of the Sox current rotation...

[Larry Cook]

Kind of an odd love / fascination being shown for Logan Allen. San Diego has since re-packaged him to Cleveland . As far as I know , Padre fans are not lamenting this . He is currently not on the Guardians active roster . His somewhat less than illustrious MLB career so far : 2-3 record . 5.86 ERA . 35 innings pitched . 45 hits allowed . 20 strikeouts . 19 walks . He is now 23 years old , and on his way to Jabroniville . I do agree that he would fit right in with our current crop of jabronis . But I do not miss him at all.

 

Very sad! Hopefully he puts it all together because his stuff looked good.

[dgalehouse]

He’d still be better than 4/5 of the Sox current rotation...

 

So would my grand nephew , Vinnie . I'll send his number to Chaim.

[Kimmi]

Ding, ding, ding, we have a winner. All in all, though, not many of these deals look bad.

 

Chris Sale trade was good and I'd still do it. In hindsight, extending him early was the mistake. We could have gotten him cheaper had we waited.

 

Any of the deals taken individually were okay, except for the Kimbrel deal. I thought that the trade for Sale was excessive, though taken in a vacuum, it was perfectly fine. It was the totality of his trades that was the problem.

[Bellhorn04]

He might yet figure it out . It's just that I don't get the regret about moving him.

 

Rightly or wrongly, Logan Allen has become sort of the poster boy for DD's giving up too much in trades.

[notin]

Rightly or wrongly, Logan Allen has become sort of the poster boy for DD's giving up too much in trades.

 

.... alongside Mauricio Dubon.

 

Although the “regrettable trade” with Milwaukee was actually one of his fairer deals upfront. It was just killed by an injury...

[mvp 78]

What evidence suggests the trade could be made without including Logan Allen?

 

Negotiations typically include numerous permutations and the resulting trade represents the product of that give-and-take,

 

Per Alex Speier, the Padres asked for Allen at the very last second. DD just said whatever and just threw him in the deal.

[mvp 78]

Ding, ding, ding, we have a winner. All in all, though, not many of these deals look bad.

 

Chris Sale trade was good and I'd still do it. In hindsight, extending him early was the mistake. We could have gotten him cheaper had we waited.

 

The only bad deal was the Shaw/Dubon for Thornburg. The others were fine.

[Nick]

Any of the deals taken individually were okay, except for the Kimbrel deal. I thought that the trade for Sale was excessive, though taken in a vacuum, it was perfectly fine. It was the totality of his trades that was the problem.

 

He did give us 3 pretty good years, no?

 

Moncada became expendable because of Devers and the belief that Dustin would play 2nd base for the Sox until 2021.

 

I really hated to see Kopech go.

 

Sale's contract was also team friendly.

 

Not sure what we would have done to make the team as competitive those first two years absent Chris Sale.

 

I'm really interested to hear what the Sox would have done to improve had we not done the deal with the White Sox. What was available then?

Edited September 8, 2020 by Nick

[mvp 78]

.... alongside Mauricio Dubon.

 

Although the “regrettable trade” with Milwaukee was actually one of his fairer deals upfront. It was just killed by an injury...

 

Yeah, both deals could have probably been done without Dubon and Allen.

 

Even if Allen isn't a frontline starter right now, he'd be the #3 guy this year and would save a bunch of innings for the pen.

[mvp 78]

He did give us 3 pretty good years, no?

 

Moncada became expendable because of Devers and the belief that Dustin would play 2nd base for the Sox until 2021.

 

I really hated to see Kopech go.

 

Sale's contract was also team friendly.

 

Not sure what we would have done to make the team as competitive those first two years absent Chris Sale.

 

I'm really interested to hear what the Sox would have done to improve had we not done the deal with the White Sox. What was available then?

 

Not a lot of good FA SP's in that time frame (Darvish, Tanaka, Hellickson, Arrietta, Sababthia).

[Nick]

I do hope he gets well.....I never wish any player any harm to his career.....Betts included (he didn't love us anymore...that happens in life)

 

Kopech is still under team control for four additional years. Moncada had signed a new deal that will keep him with White Sox until 2025.

 

White Sox pitching coach concerned about Michael Kopech

Jul 12, 2020

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Chicago White Sox pitching coach Don Cooper says he is concerned about right-hander Michael Kopech, who recently opted out of the upcoming 2020 season.

 

Kopech, 24, missed the entire 2019 season while recovering from Tommy John surgery but was expected to contend for a spot in Chicago's rotation this year. He has publicly discussed his anxiety and depression, which Cooper cited Saturday in an interview with the Chicago Sun-Times.

 

"I don't know what is going on with Michael, but I know he deals with some anxiety and depression, and my thought is, I sure hope he's OK," Cooper told the Sun-Times. "And I hope he gets to where he needs to be, where he's feeling good and wants to come back, because we will welcome him back with open arms."

 

Kopech also missed the start of summer camp earlier this month because of what the White Sox called a personal matter.

 

EDITOR'S PICKS

 

White Sox RHP Kopech opts out of 2020 season

 

MLB players who are opting out of the 2020 season

"Last time I saw him in spring training, he was in a great place," Cooper told the Sun-Times. "But let me put it this way: I sure hope the kid is OK. I'm concerned that he's not OK."

 

Kopech, who touched 100 mph during spring training this past March, has not made any public comments about his decision to opt out of the season.

 

The White Sox did not announce Friday whether Kopech has tested positive for COVID-19 or has been exposed to the virus, with general manager Rick Hahn saying in a statement that "reaching this decision is incredibly difficult for any competitive athlete, and our organization is understanding and supportive."

 

"Michael has been pretty open and available to [the media] on a lot of tough topics, but he's not in the mood to talk right now," Cooper told the Sun-Times. "When Michael is ready to talk, then you are going to get the real deal."

 

White Sox left-hander Carlos Rodon also expressed support for Kopech.

 

"It's Michael's decision, and we have no idea what's going on in his world, and as a team, we support him 100 percent," Rodon told the paper. "It's a tough loss. He's a guy who can boost our rotation or wherever he would line up in the row of arms. But looking forward to having him back next year."

 

Kopech, who made four starts in 2018 before suffering the elbow injury, was a key part of the five-player trade that sent All-Star pitcher Chris Sale to the Boston Red Sox after the 2016 season.

Edited September 8, 2020 by Nick

[mvp 78]

If I was Kopech, I'd be pretty pissed off about a coach of mine talking about me in this way in the press. Not that the White Sox have been known to have a good culture.

[Nick]

Position Players-looking ahead

 

C Vazquez 2022

1B Dalbec (?) 2025

2B

3B Devers 2023

SS Xander 2026

OF Verdugo 2024

OF Beni 2022

OF Duran (?) 2026 (?)

DH JD 2022 (probably can't move the contract)

 

When will our #1 prospect Casas be ready? What about Chatam?

Edited September 8, 2020 by Nick

[notin]

Position Players-looking ahead

 

C Vazquez 2022

1B Dalbec (?) 2025

2B

3B Devers 2023

SS Xander 2026

OF Verdugo 2024

OF Beni 2022

OF Duran (?) 2026 (?)

DH JD 2022 (probably can't move the contract)

 

When will our #1 prospect Casas be ready? What about Chatam?

 

Casas has 7 plate appearances in high A ball and basically lost this year. Two years would be optimistic, but not impossible.

 

Chatham is probably a utility infielder...

[moonslav59]

Casas has 7 plate appearances in high A ball and basically lost this year. Two years would be optimistic, but not impossible.

 

Chatham is probably a utility infielder...

 

My guess is Chavis, Arauz & Lin all have a better chance of playing 2B or being our utility IF'er in 2021 than Chatham. Downs will likely pass him at some point in 2021 or early 2022.

[Nick]

Casas has 7 plate appearances in high A ball and basically lost this year. Two years would be optimistic, but not impossible.

 

Chatham is probably a utility infielder...

 

The sage one puts me in my time out chair.....and I'm good with it when I'm talking stupid.

[moonslav59]

He did give us 3 pretty good years, no?

 

Moncada became expendable because of Devers and the belief that Dustin would play 2nd base for the Sox until 2021.

 

I really hated to see Kopech go.

 

Sale's contract was also team friendly.

 

Not sure what we would have done to make the team as competitive those first two years absent Chris Sale.

 

I'm really interested to hear what the Sox would have done to improve had we not done the deal with the White Sox. What was available then?

 

Quintanna was traded away shortly after Sale.

[notin]

Quintanna was traded away shortly after Sale.

 

Ditto Eaton.

 

They did hold on to Abreu, which surprised many...

[Nick]

Quintanna was traded away shortly after Sale.

 

Not sure if his career has taken off as some expected.

 

We paid Sale $39.5M over 3 years. I think we'd look at him differently had we not extended at beginning of 2019. I still think we would have signed him but not for as much as shorter duration.

 

I would continue to shop Devers and ask for the moon. 2 or 3 solid, player controlled major league ready players would help the Sox. We have the money to get us over the hump but we're not close to that hump. We need more better than average players at this point.

[notin]

Not sure if his career has taken off as some expected.

 

We paid Sale $39.5M over 3 years. I think we'd look at him differently had we not extended at beginning of 2019. I still think we would have signed him but not for as much as shorter duration.

 

I would continue to shop Devers and ask for the moon. 2 or 3 solid, player controlled major league ready players would help the Sox. We have the money to get us over the hump but we're not close to that hump. We need more better than average players at this point.

 

I don't like the ideaof trading Devers. Per BTV, one might expect a package like the following teams among the lowest in team fWAR at 3B in 2020.

 

From Atlanta - OF Drew Waters, RHP Ian Anderson, RHP Kyle Wright. It is a good return assuming they all pan out. Not sure Atlanta is that keen on including Anderson.

From Milwaukee - RHP Corbin Burnes, RHP Freddy Peralta, SS/2B Luis Urias. milwaukee would undoubtedly love Devers, but would they include 2 MLB pitchers?

From Washington - SS/3B Carter Kieboom, RHP Jackson Rutledge, RHRP Tanner Rainey. I think they do it, but should Boston?

From Arizona - C Daulton Varsho, OF Alek Thomas, OF Krisitian Robinson. The only pitcher who fits the trade is the (very likely) Untouchable Zac Gallen.

 

Of these 4, the Atlanta package is the one I give the most thought to...

[Nick]

Potts homers

 

Hudson Potts — who the Boston Red Sox acquired with Jeisson Rosario in the Mitch Moreland trade — also homered against Houck. (intra squad game where Casas hit a two run homer)

 

Potts is a power-hitting 21-year-old third baseman. The 6-foot-3, 218-pound right-handed hitter, who reached Double A last year, has batted .256 with a .315 on-base percentage, .428 slugging percentage, .743 OPS, 57 homers, 94 doubles, nine triples and 224 RBIs in 423 minor league games.

[Kimmi]

He did give us 3 pretty good years, no?

 

Moncada became expendable because of Devers and the belief that Dustin would play 2nd base for the Sox until 2021.

 

I really hated to see Kopech go.

 

Sale's contract was also team friendly.

 

Not sure what we would have done to make the team as competitive those first two years absent Chris Sale.

 

I'm really interested to hear what the Sox would have done to improve had we not done the deal with the White Sox. What was available then?

 

The Sale trade, in and of itself, has been fine. He has pitched well enough for us when he stays healthy.

[Nick]

The Sale trade, in and of itself, has been fine. He has pitched well enough for us when he stays healthy.

 

I want us to have the best team, then go out and sign the best pitcher on top of it simply because we can and piss off the Yankees. That's my dream season.

Edited September 9, 2020 by Nick

[Kimmi]

I want us to have the best team, then go out and sign the best pitcher on top of it simply because we can and piss off the Yankees. That's my dream season.

 

My dream is to field a team of mostly home grown, cost controlled players, then fill the gaps with inexpensive, yet very productive free agents, then beat up on the Yankees year after year with a team that costs a fraction of what the Yankees spend.

[oldtimer]

My dream is to field a team of mostly home grown, cost controlled players, then fill the gaps with inexpensive, yet very productive free agents, then beat up on the Yankees year after year with a team that costs a fraction of what the Yankees spend.

 

Your talking about building a Rays like team. We have the right guy in Bloom to do it.

 

We have a couple of impediments. We haven't had a decent draft position in years and we traded away a lot of quality prospects.

 

I also wonder about the quality of our player development. Case in point being Dalbec, who came up with years in the minors with a reputation as a power hitter with a high strike out rate. His first period seemed to confirm the book on him and then after a few days coaching he seems to have found a way to improve significantly. If coaching was what this kid needed, was it lacking in the minors? Probably the answers are more complex but it begs the question Are we lacking in the player development area?