Fire Chaim Bloom!

[mvp 78]

Interestingly, Fangraphs listed Bonds as having 4 of the top ten seasons in fWAR, but he only made the postseason in one (2002) of those 4 seasons.

 

Of course, if you go back before 2002 (I think) for fWAR, the numbers are calculated a bit differently because of the lack of the same type of defensive data. And if you go back before the 1990's, it does mess with your entire premise because teams were a bit more balanced economically. Johnny Bench and Willie Stargell did not monopolize a payroll the way Betts can...

 

Yup. And if you tell me that if having the top fWAR season gives you a 40% chance to be in the postseason, well teams only have a 27% chance to get in the postseason anyway. Seems that you are more likely to get into the postseason with the top fWAR guy than if you don't have the top fWAR guy.

[5GoldGlovesOF,75]

It takes a complete team to get to the postseason. Spending all or most of your resources on one player is not the best way to build a team.

 

My original post was from looking at annual WAR Top 10s, so when I said "best players" I meant plural, as more than one -- which brings us back to a star core. It's not unusual for the best teams to have many of the best players. For example, the 2018 Red Sox had three guys in the AL's Top 10 Offensive WAR-- 2. Betts, 6. JD, 10. Bogie; plus two in the Top 10 WAR for Pitchers-- 2. Sale and 8. Price.

 

Such data helps explain a great team. Of course, no one comes close in our lifetimes to the mid-70s Cincinnati Reds, who had the NL's top three WAR leaders for the decade -- Morgan, Bench, Rose -- and six of the top 15, with Perez, Foster and Concepcion. Imagine having 40% of your league's best players... and then free agency breaks out.

[notin]

Yup. And if you tell me that if having the top fWAR season gives you a 40% chance to be in the postseason, well teams only have a 27% chance to get in the postseason anyway. Seems that you are more likely to get into the postseason with the top fWAR guy than if you don't have the top fWAR guy.

 

And looking at Johnny Bench. He lead the NL in fWAR in 1972. But teammates Joe Morgan (2nd) and Pete Rose (8th) were among the league leaders as well. Not to mention Tony Perez (26th) and Bobby Tolan (27th) had great seasons. Can teams afford to pay what those veterans would cost today? Five of the 27 best position players?

 

The 1972 Reds, interestingly, had only one pitcher (Jack Billingham) in the top 50 in fWAR, and he was number 50...

[mvp 78]

And looking at Johnny Bench. He lead the NL in fWAR in 1972. But teammates Joe Morgan (2nd) and Pete Rose (8th) were among the league leaders as well. Not to mention Tony Perez (26th) and Bobby Tolan (27th) had great seasons. Can teams afford to pay what those veterans would cost today? Five of the 27 best position players?

 

The 1972 Reds, interestingly, had only one pitcher (Jack Billingham) in the top 50 in fWAR, and he was number 50...

 

In today's game, Tolan and Bench would be cheap. The Reds would probably have to pick 2 out of 3 for Rose/Morgan/Perez. Guys like Concepcion and Foster were still cheap and a year away from breaking out. They would have definitely saved money on that pitching staff.

[5GoldGlovesOF,75]

In today's game, Tolan and Bench would be cheap. The Reds would probably have to pick 2 out of 3 for Rose/Morgan/Perez. Guys like Concepcion and Foster were still cheap and a year away from breaking out. They would have definitely saved money on that pitching staff.

 

No doubt. Sparky "Captain Hook" Anderson was ahead of his time using his bullpen arms.

[notin]

In today's game, Tolan and Bench would be cheap. The Reds would probably have to pick 2 out of 3 for Rose/Morgan/Perez. Guys like Concepcion and Foster were still cheap and a year away from breaking out. They would have definitely saved money on that pitching staff.

 

In an era where Jackie Bradley costs $11mill and Kevin Kiermaier has a 6 year $53.5 mill contract, what is your definition of cheap as it applies to Tolan?

 

Bench also had 4 Gold Gloves and an MVP under his belt prior to 1972 (when he got his 5th Gold Glove and 2nd MVP). Comparable recent catchers might be Posey or Mauer, neither of whom were/are cheap...

[mvp 78]

In an era where Jackie Bradley costs $11mill and Kevin Kiermaier has a 6 year $53.5 mill contract, what is your definition of cheap as it applies to Tolan?

 

Bench also had 4 Gold Gloves and an MVP under his belt prior to 1972 (when he got his 5th Gold Glove and 2nd MVP). Comparable recent catchers might be Posey or Mauer, neither of whom were/are cheap...

 

Are Posey/Mauer still arb eligible as Bench would have been?

[mvp 78]

Also, Tolan would probably have been fairly cheap:

 

Tolan missed the 1971 season after rupturing his Achilles tendon playing basketball, which violated a specific clause in his contract barring him from that activity.

[notin]

Also, Tolan would probably have been fairly cheap:

 

Tolan missed the 1971 season after rupturing his Achilles tendon playing basketball, which violated a specific clause in his contract barring him from that activity.

 

In today's game, that qualifies him to manage the New York Yankees...

[notin]

Are Posey/Mauer still arb eligible as Bench would have been?

 

Both signed extensions prior to reaching free agency, which Bench would have likely done before his sixth season...

[mvp 78]

Both signed extensions prior to reaching free agency, which Bench would have likely done before his sixth season...

 

Considering service time, it would have been his fifth season I believe.

[dgalehouse]

Cherington: One world championship. Three last place finishes. TalkSox report card : A. Dombrowski: One world championship. An unprecedented three straight A.L. East titles . One third place finish . TalkSox report card: F . Bloom : So far , the worst record in the league. ( Still early ). TalkSox report card : A +. ( TalkSox has a very unique evaluation system ).

[Bellhorn04]

Cherington: One world championship. Three last place finishes. TalkSox report card : A. Dombrowski: One world championship. An unprecedented three straight A.L. East titles . One third place finish . TalkSox report card: F . Bloom : So far , the worst record in the league. ( Still early ). TalkSox report card : A +. ( TalkSox has a very unique evaluation system ).

 

What was Theo's record in his first couple of seasons with the Cubs?

 

Can't always go just by the W-L record, Den.

[Bellhorn04]

Also, those "report card grades" are a wee bit exaggerated.

[dgalehouse]

What was Theo's record in his first couple of seasons with the Cubs?

 

Can't always go just by the W-L record, Den.

 

Bell , Well , in sports , they unfortunately do go by the W-L record . It means everything. As for Theo , he made his bones in 2004 , and cemented his place in Cooperstown in 2007 and 2016 . He is off the hook for anything else.

[dgalehouse]

Also, those "report card grades" are a wee bit exaggerated.

 

A wee bit exaggerated only to make the point.

[notin]

Cherington: One world championship. Three last place finishes. TalkSox report card : A. Dombrowski: One world championship. An unprecedented three straight A.L. East titles . One third place finish . TalkSox report card: F . Bloom : So far , the worst record in the league. ( Still early ). TalkSox report card : A +. ( TalkSox has a very unique evaluation system ).

 

You like to draw grades solely on the seasons these GMs were in charge with no thought into what the condition was of the team they inherited or left behind, like they are all running fantasy baseball teams in a re-draft league.

 

Dombrowski does not win 3 titles without what he inherited from Cherington. He absolutely doesn't. And his spending habits absolutely did leave the team in the shape it is in today for Bloom to clean up. Both Bloom and Cherington inherited messy teams and were not allowed to spend any money, unlike Dombrowski. For someone who believes spending is the best way to win, why not take into consideration whether or not they were allowed to do so in the first place?

 

I do try to take these factors into consideration when evaluating a GM, which is why I would score Dombrowski lower than you might and Cherington higher. I think it is an easier job for a GM when they have more resources. Bloom has to be given an INC grade so far because he really has not been allowed to do anything...

[Bellhorn04]

Bell , Well , in sports , they unfortunately do go by the W-L record . It means everything. As for Theo , he made his bones in 2004 , and cemented his place in Cooperstown in 2007 and 2016 . He is off the hook for anything else.

 

In that case, Cherington's 2013 ring should get him off the hook for everything else too.

[Kimmi]

Per Soxprospects.com, the current Red Sox 40 man roster has 39 players on it, and 21 were in the organization prior to Bloom's hire. He has added 18 players to the 40 man roster.

 

The bulk of his adds have been borderline pitchers (Mazza, Springs, Hall, Leyer, Kickham, Stock, Triggs, Covey, Valdez, Godley, Brice ) and utility infielders (Arauz, Munoz, Peraza). The remaining adds have been 2 SPs (Perez, Pivetta), a starting outfielder (Verdugo), and a backup catcher (Plawecki)...

 

I did not realize that he had added so many players until I read that this morning. Dude has been busy!

[Kimmi]

Batting 1 for 18...

 

Actually, Valdez, Perez and Plawecki have been fine too.

 

LOL

 

The jury is still out.

[Kimmi]

My original post was from looking at annual WAR Top 10s, so when I said "best players" I meant plural, as more than one -- which brings us back to a star core. It's not unusual for the best teams to have many of the best players. For example, the 2018 Red Sox had three guys in the AL's Top 10 Offensive WAR-- 2. Betts, 6. JD, 10. Bogie; plus two in the Top 10 WAR for Pitchers-- 2. Sale and 8. Price.

 

Such data helps explain a great team. Of course, no one comes close in our lifetimes to the mid-70s Cincinnati Reds, who had the NL's top three WAR leaders for the decade -- Morgan, Bench, Rose -- and six of the top 15, with Perez, Foster and Concepcion. Imagine having 40% of your league's best players... and then free agency breaks out.

 

It makes sense that the teams with the best players are more likely to get to the postseason. I'm just saying that the best players don't have to be the most expensive players.

[Kimmi]

Cherington: One world championship. Three last place finishes. TalkSox report card : A. Dombrowski: One world championship. An unprecedented three straight A.L. East titles . One third place finish . TalkSox report card: F . Bloom : So far , the worst record in the league. ( Still early ). TalkSox report card : A +. ( TalkSox has a very unique evaluation system ).

 

Dombrowski's record with the Sox is very largely a result of the great work done by Theo and Ben.

 

Bloom's record with the Sox to date is very largely a result of the work done by Dombrowski.

 

Thus, the report card grades.

[Kimmi]

You like to draw grades solely on the seasons these GMs were in charge with no thought into what the condition was of the team they inherited or left behind, like they are all running fantasy baseball teams in a re-draft league.

 

Dombrowski does not win 3 titles without what he inherited from Cherington. He absolutely doesn't. And his spending habits absolutely did leave the team in the shape it is in today for Bloom to clean up. Both Bloom and Cherington inherited messy teams and were not allowed to spend any money, unlike Dombrowski. For someone who believes spending is the best way to win, why not take into consideration whether or not they were allowed to do so in the first place?

 

I do try to take these factors into consideration when evaluating a GM, which is why I would score Dombrowski lower than you might and Cherington higher. I think it is an easier job for a GM when they have more resources. Bloom has to be given an INC grade so far because he really has not been allowed to do anything...

 

Amen, brother Notin.

[5GoldGlovesOF,75]

You can argue that all Red Sox GMs this century have succeeded in what they were hired to do: Epstein to produce a club equal to NY that could break The Curse, Dombro to spend resources to put Boston back on top, and Bloom to cut salary in order to reset and retool. The biggest failure -- when looking at standings -- was Ben, but his first job was to continue to expand the farm, then orchestrate the first major Sox sell-off, and finally rebuild a contender (check, check, check).

[Larry Cook]

You like to draw grades solely on the seasons these GMs were in charge with no thought into what the condition was of the team they inherited or left behind, like they are all running fantasy baseball teams in a re-draft league.

 

Dombrowski does not win 3 titles without what he inherited from Cherington. He absolutely doesn't. And his spending habits absolutely did leave the team in the shape it is in today for Bloom to clean up. Both Bloom and Cherington inherited messy teams and were not allowed to spend any money, unlike Dombrowski. For someone who believes spending is the best way to win, why not take into consideration whether or not they were allowed to do so in the first place?

 

I do try to take these factors into consideration when evaluating a GM, which is why I would score Dombrowski lower than you might and Cherington higher. I think it is an easier job for a GM when they have more resources. Bloom has to be given an INC grade so far because he really has not been allowed to do anything...

 

Front offices manage a complicated game of resources.

 

Resources are spread among baseball operations, scouting, coaching, player inventory and minor league system.

 

The true test for hang’em Chaim is how does he maximize resources to maximize results on the field!

 

Coming into the nuclear waste dump left by desperate dave had to be scary for him. The entire minor league system, baseball analytics department and scouting departments decimated due to desperate Dave’s incompetence. Plus a major league roster bloated with bad contracts.

 

Thus far hang’em Chaim has struggled to rebuild the analytics department which has led to some really questionable pitching signings, hence our current miserable performance.

 

Have we hit the nadir under hang’em Chaim? We all hope so, but hope is never an effective strategy!

[5GoldGlovesOF,75]

Front offices manage a complicated game of resources.

 

Resources are spread among baseball operations, scouting, coaching, player inventory and minor league system.

 

The true test for hang’em Chaim is how does he maximize resources to maximize results on the field!

 

Coming into the nuclear waste dump left by desperate dave had to be scary for him. The entire minor league system, baseball analytics department and scouting departments decimated due to desperate Dave’s incompetence. Plus a major league roster bloated with bad contracts.

 

Thus far hang’em Chaim has struggled to rebuild the analytics department which has led to some really questionable pitching signings, hence our current miserable performance.

 

Have we hit the nadir under hang’em Chaim? We all hope so, but hope is never an effective strategy!

 

They're also responsible for the Sox getting burned on shifts seemingly every night. I swear if Boston had just played defense straight up all summer there would be less runs against. Of course, our hitters line one hoppers right up the middle whenever there's a fielder stationed right behind the bag... and can't save their lives by just bouncing a routine grounder through an empty oppo side.

[mvp 78]

You can argue that all Red Sox GMs this century have succeeded in what they were hired to do: Epstein to produce a club equal to NY that could break The Curse, Dombro to spend resources to put Boston back on top, and Bloom to cut salary in order to reset and retool. The biggest failure -- when looking at standings -- was Ben, but his first job was to continue to expand the farm, then orchestrate the first major Sox sell-off, and finally rebuild a contender (check, check, check).

Ben didn’t do all that great with the draft. Betts was drafted in 2011. Ben botched the Trey Ball pick, his first shot to put a real stamp on this system. He also was in charge when the Sox got in trouble with their international spending which set them back.

[Kimmi]

Front offices manage a complicated game of resources.

 

Resources are spread among baseball operations, scouting, coaching, player inventory and minor league system.

 

The true test for hang’em Chaim is how does he maximize resources to maximize results on the field!

 

Coming into the nuclear waste dump left by desperate dave had to be scary for him. The entire minor league system, baseball analytics department and scouting departments decimated due to desperate Dave’s incompetence. Plus a major league roster bloated with bad contracts.

 

Thus far hang’em Chaim has struggled to rebuild the analytics department which has led to some really questionable pitching signings, hence our current miserable performance.

 

Have we hit the nadir under hang’em Chaim? We all hope so, but hope is never an effective strategy!

 

While you post in hyperbole, I agree with the overall gist of what you're saying.

 

However, in fairness to Bloom about the questionable pitching signings this season, those signings were not meant to fill 3 to 4 rotation spots. And Eovaldi was never meant to be our #1. If we had a healthy Sale, ERod, and Eovaldi as our #1-3 guys, Perez is more than fine as a #4 and the slew of other pitchers would be fine as our #5.

[Kimmi]

They're also responsible for the Sox getting burned on shifts seemingly every night. I swear if Boston had just played defense straight up all summer there would be less runs against. Of course, our hitters line one hoppers right up the middle whenever there's a fielder stationed right behind the bag... and can't save their lives by just bouncing a routine grounder through an empty oppo side.

 

As much as I'm a fan of analytics, I am not a fan of the drastic shifts. Not because they don't work, but because it just doesn't sit well with me aesthetically. We have seemingly been burned by the shift a lot this year, but the bottom line is that they do work on the whole.

 

On a side note, one of my favorite Mookie moments is when he waved his "cheat" card after catching a Joe Mauer fly ball that was hit right to him when he was positioned in right center, way off the line. Good stuff.

[mvp 78]

Sox are 24th in the league in shifting. Maybe they aren't doing it enough!

 

However, the Braves/A's/Padres have all been pretty good and they are at the bottom in terms of shifting.