Red Sox have fired GM Dave Dombrowski

[moonslav59]

Nobody said anything about Kopech, at least I certainly didn't. He was a highly rated prospect.

 

No, but you responded to a post that mentioned Allen & Kopech, and Allen does offer more hope than a lot of pitchers on the Sox roster, right now..

[mvp 78]

Nobody said anything about Kopech, at least I certainly didn't. He was a highly rated prospect.

 

Allen was a top 100 guy in 2018. He wasn't a nobody.

[Bellhorn04]

Logan Allen is 23 years old. There is actually a really good chance that the first 35 innings - and that is all he has at the MLB level - of his career are actually not representative of the remainder of his career.

 

Michael Kickham is 31 years old. There is a really good chance thatt he first 42 innings - and again, that is all he has - are actually going to get worse if he ever pitches in MLB again.

 

So your analogy really isn't very good, unless you think s*** with whipped cream will taste better if you leave it out longer...

 

Well, you did use the word "now" in your post.

[moonslav59]

No doubt, the DD trades made us very good to great for 3 years. We won a ring and had exciting teams to watch.

 

That being said, would today's and tomorrows teams be better, if we added these players to our roster and farm?

 

Moncada

Buttrey

Kopech

Dubon

Margot

Allen

Beeks

Noe Ramirez

 

Bautista

Basabe

Espinoza

Nogosek

Santos

and others

 

[moonslav59]

Well, you did use the word "now" in your post.

 

The team would be better now with Allen over Kickham and Springs.

 

Better now and maybe even better going forward.

 

2020 ERA

4.70 Allen

7.13 Springs

8.49 Kickham

18.69 Hall

6.55 Covey

6.27 Brice

[Bellhorn04]

No doubt, the DD trades made us very good to great for 3 years. We won a ring and had exciting teams to watch.

 

That being said, would today's and tomorrows teams be better, if we added these players to our roster and farm?

 

Moncada

Buttrey

Kopech

Dubon

Margot

Allen

Beeks

Noe Ramirez

 

Bautista

Basabe

Espinoza

Nogosek

Santos

and others

 

 

The 2020 team would be marginally better. That's the only thing that can be said with any certainty.

[Bellhorn04]

The team would be better now with Allen over Kickham and Springs.

 

But not by much.

[notin]

That's a more revealing question, to me, and gets at the crux of how to view DD's legacy.

 

Well, his legacy will carry division 3 titles and a WS trophy. But he is getting a reputation for crippling teams on his way out the door. The Tigers are still a mess

[notin]

The 2020 team would be marginally better. That's the only thing that can be said with any certainty.

 

While it is true this team is not one Logan Allen away from competing, his presence would still create one less void on the staff going forward...

[Bellhorn04]

Well, his legacy will carry division 3 titles and a WS trophy. But he is getting a reputation for crippling teams on his way out the door. The Tigers are still a mess

 

The Tigers have been bad a long time. He was there for one of their more successful stretches. So maybe not his fault.

[Bellhorn04]

While it is true this team is not one Logan Allen away from competing, his presence would still create one less void on the staff going forward...

 

That's a possibility.

[mvp 78]

Well, his legacy will carry division 3 titles and a WS trophy. But he is getting a reputation for crippling teams on his way out the door. The Tigers are still a mess

 

Before he went there, the Tigers didn't hadn't been over .500 the prior 8 years.

 

I don't think you can lay the current state of the Tigers entirely on Dombrowski.

 

Mike Illitch took over in '92:

only one season above .500 in the 90's

Tigers averaged 88 wins from 06-14 (thanks to Dombrowski)

Tigers won 86 games in 2016 largely due to Dombrowski guys

suckage for the 4 years since then

 

I think the biggest problem in Detroit is the owner not whoever has been the GM.

[moonslav59]

The 2020 team would be marginally better. That's the only thing that can be said with any certainty.

 

Agreed, and certainly not better enough to compete, but our farm would be rated slightly better, and our longer term outlook and 40 man roster depth would be improved, especially looking forward, which is all hypothetical, of course.

[dgalehouse]

I think that when you win an unprecedented three straight A.L. East titles and one World Championship , it should be considered a success . No real need to follow up with " but , but this , that and the other thing.

[notin]

The Tigers have been bad a long time. He was there for one of their more successful stretches. So maybe not his fault.

 

He did there almost exactly what he did here. He went on a spending spree with players like Victor Martinez and Prince Fielder and his massive extensions to Justin Verlander and then the phenomenal one to Miguel Cabrera, who is still owed $94 mill for the next 3 seasons, which is an awful lot for a beaten-down league average (OPS+ of 100 since 2017) hitter with no defensive abilities to speak of.

 

They had a very good run, but when it comes to Dombrowski, that type of run ends with a smattering of blood, guts and aging mega-million dollar contracts. He just seems to make every deal with only "the now" in mind and then hopes tomorrow never comes...

[mvp 78]

He did there almost exactly what he did here. He went on a spending spree with players like Victor Martinez and Prince Fielder and his massive extensions to Justin Verlander and then the phenomenal one to Miguel Cabrera, who is still owed $94 mill for the next 3 seasons, which is an awful lot for a beaten-down league average (OPS+ of 100 since 2017) hitter with no defensive abilities to speak of.

 

They had a very good run, but when it comes to Dombrowski, that type of run ends with a smattering of blood, guts and aging mega-million dollar contracts. He just seems to make every deal with only "the now" in mind and then hopes tomorrow never comes...

 

At the time, it was reported that Illitch wanted the Prince Fielder extension not Dombo.

[cp176]

I think that when you win an unprecedented three straight A.L. East titles and one World Championship , it should be considered a success . No real need to follow up with " but , but this , that and the other thing.

 

it really is a done deal. Some interesting posts to read today. It seems that in hindsight there is at least a little agreement thinking that we likely would not have accomplished what we did without the trades made by DD. it also seems that some feel that if none of the trades were made we might be better today than we currently are but still not all that good. Most seem to think that our farm system would look stronger. This is where things get interesting for me. If your farm does not develop the quality that it takes to win, then trades need to be made. That is one of the purposes the farm serves. Stockpiling mediocrity just isn't good enough. pretty sure Bloom knows this just as well as he knows that we are in a search for quality pitching.

[notin]

At the time, it was reported that Illitch wanted the Prince Fielder extension not Dombo.

 

Well, just as I blame Cherington for Sandoval and Hanley, I blame Dombrowski for Fielder.

 

And Fielder lingered on the market forever that off-season. Dombrowski did not even sign him until Victor Martinez was ruled out for the year, which was in February, I believe. So if Ilitch got involved, he got involved really late.

 

It seemed a little odd to go all in on a replacement player with a deal twice as long as the guy he was replacing. (And forced the most awful position alignment seen in the AL in decades when Miguel Cabrera was moved back to 3B.)

[harmony]

Allen was a top 100 guy in 2018. He wasn't a nobody.

To be precise, Logan Allen cracked the preseason Top 100 prospect lists in 2019 some three years after the Red Sox traded the lefthander in November 2015.

 

https://www.baseball-reference.com/register/player.fcgi?id=allen-000log

 

https://www.baseball-reference.com/players/a/allenlo01.shtml#all_transactions_other

[moonslav59]

I think that when you win an unprecedented three straight A.L. East titles and one World Championship , it should be considered a success . No real need to follow up with " but , but this , that and the other thing.

 

Is that why you hold all of this recent misery over Bloom?

[moonslav59]

To be precise, Logan Allen cracked the preseason Top 100 prospect lists in 2019 some three years after the Red Sox traded the lefthander in November 2015.

 

https://www.baseball-reference.com/register/player.fcgi?id=allen-000log

 

https://www.baseball-reference.com/players/a/allenlo01.shtml#all_transactions_other

 

Well, if people are going to make the point that some of the highly valued prospects we traded were flops, then we should also count some of the lower valued prospects that moved up in value, too.

 

I remember there was talk about Allen during the trade and how many felt he has a lot of promise, and how maybe the deal might have been done without him.

 

[moonslav59]

There's always a "but."

 

Theo had one.

Ben had a few.

Tito had one.

DD deserves one, too.

 

"Buts" don't negate the good things, but they also should not be buried or made unspeakable just because the great moments were so wonderful.

 

I'm still thrilled and grateful for what DD did, but that doesn't mean I have to sweep the consequences under a rug.

[5GoldGlovesOF,75]

My Dombro post: I'm still satisfied the Red Sox finished first three straight years, improving each year until they had their best season ever -- which never would have culminated with ultimate success without the Pearce and Eovaldi trades. Argue all you want about subsequent signings after the 2018 World Series, but the facts are Pearce was the WS MVP, while Eovaldi -- statistically, for those who forget -- was Boston's best pitcher through the entire '18 postseason (in the past half century, of all hurlers appearing in 6 games and a minimum of 22 innings in a postseason, only two had a lower ERA, Opponent BA and WHIP – Schilling and Johnson in ’01).

 

As for those who suspect Dombrowski's spendings on others led to the eventual trade of Mookie, I'm not so sure. I always wondered about DD's quote -- "You can't sign'em all" -- and hoped (against all hope, as it turned out), that he wasn't referring to Betts. I sense Dave knew Mookie wouldn't be signing back in Boston, and that's maybe what drove the contracts for others instead. As has been well chronicled, Dombro knows and appreciates talent; remember, Max Scherzer turned down a massive offer in 2014, and yes, Miguel Cabrera got a massive extension. But Miggie is also a first-ballot Hall of Famer...

 

So is/wiil be Mookie. And it's hard to believe someone in the business as long as Dave Dombrowski didn't see and/or plan for this. After all, Betts was the best player on the best team that DD ever GMed...

[Kimmi]

They have now reached the bottom of the barrel. All they need to do is launch madden and hire valentine and desperate Dave!

 

Better the Angels than the Red Sox!

[Kimmi]

More likely that Sox had many top prospects that didn't pan out. Our 7th pick, Trey Ball for example. You need a major league player when drafting that high.

 

Let's see how Bloom does with next year's 1st round pick. I like the guy. Kimmi, will he be another Theo?

 

Bloom and Theo operate under the same philosophy. How well Bloom implements that philosophy remains to be seen. Based on what I've seen in Tampa and what I've seen Friedman do with the Dodgers, I am very optimistic.

[Kimmi]

I think the question is : Would the Red Sox have been better off if Dombrowski did not make the trades that he did ? To me the answer is a resounding , " No Way . " Knowing what we knew then and what we know now , I would absolutely make the trades all over again.

 

The question for me is, did Dombrowski have to make all of the trades that he did early in his tenure here for the Sox to be successful? The answer for is is a resounding NO.

 

We could have had the best of both worlds.

[Kimmi]

I think that when you win an unprecedented three straight A.L. East titles and one World Championship , it should be considered a success . No real need to follow up with " but , but this , that and the other thing.

 

Thanks Ben!

[Kimmi]

My Dombrowski thought: I would have preferred we never hired him.

[moonslav59]

My Dombrowski thought: I would have preferred we never hired him.

 

I'd like to have given Ben one more year.

[notin]

Is that why you hold all of this recent misery over Bloom?

 

Also dgalehouse cannot handle it if anyone says anything bad about Dombrowski or good about Cherington