Red Sox have fired GM Dave Dombrowski

[cp176]

I don't disagree with anything here, but I'd like to add:

 

1) To sign the best FAs, you have to go with longer deals than you want. Otherwise, you don't get the man you really want.

 

2) On the prospects we traded, most have yet to reach prime or are just breaking into the majors now, so lets wait on the "what have they accomplished" part of the judgment.

 

3) For many of us, it was not about wanting to hoard all our prospects, and I don't think Ben was going to keep even half of them.It was about trying to make deals like the Sale one- not the Kimbrel and Pom ones.

 

I agree -

though I was actually in favor of acquiring Pomranz and Kimbrel . The only hindsight part of this one is that no one really does know how much it would have taken to get either one of them.

 

I would also add that for the best performing free agents that he signed, they were not broken down old guys. There was reason to think that they would be able to perform at a high level for a few years.

[S5Dewey]

a great post - this is what we see too often in today's world. Notin's opinion is no better nor is it any worse than anyone elses. i don't agree at all with him with respect to the way John Henry does business. Since it is a guess, i'm going with the concept that he is very much in tune with what goes on with respect to any major contract given to any player on any team that he owns.

 

Agree. Completely. JH didn't become a millionaire by turning his big decisions over to someone else, and no matter how much money one has $145M to Chris Sale, $217M to David Price and a projected ~$250M or more to Mookie Betts is a lot of money.

My opinion (FWIW) is that DD was given a framework within which to work and JH didn't want to be bothered with rubber stamping contracts like $2.6M to Sandy Leon, $1.6M to Matt Barnes or even $6.5M to Mitch Moreland but when those salaries start to run into nine figures he damn well wants to be consulted!

[oldtimer]

also...where is my Fire Cora thread? i need to bump that. the way the team has performed since the DD firing has me believing that we axed the wrong guy......

 

Clearly the team is performing poorly but I'm not willing to ascribe it to Cora, the coaches or the players. I don't have enough information to really blame anyone in particular but something is definitely wrong and you can't blame those who are gone. It's got to originate with some of the above.

 

Yes, the pitching has been poor with the exception of E-Rod who has done his job when called upon. The defense looks shaky at times. We have rested key players in games where we had a chance to win. We have mixed up lineups so there has been a lack of stability. Guys like Beni, who really looked like he had solved his slumping problems with a great performance for a while is now slumping again. Devers who you couldn't get a ball by now looks average. JDM isn't impressive. The only guy who really looked aggressive and on top of his game is Mookie, and he sat last night. These are symptoms but its difficult to identify a cause. Do we really think starting off next season with this same crew will be a prescription for success? Repeating the same actions over and over and exxpecting different results is madness.

 

How many of these guys are going through the motions and how many are out there with the Refuse To Lose attitude? We need some fire or we need to fire.

[notin]

in all honesty with respect to the large deals and trades made by DD, I was and still would be on board with most. My only question might possibly be with respect to the number of years given to some. I think that going out and acquiring high end fairly young talent with very good potential is a great idea. It obviously takes something to get something. i think that looking back at the deals made simply based on hindsight is ridiculous. When i hear that constant wail about the way DD depleted our farm, i tend to get perplexed because I can't recall any of the guys traded other then Moncada who really have to date accomplished much in the way of great things. really my only complaint this year was and would continue to be that more effort should have been spent on strenghthening the bullpen. i think that he had too much faith in the guys we had out there. In Dombrowski's case, his firing has allowed his detractors to take some fairly good shots at him. If any of the players he traded should blossom into front line players (Moncada not included), maybe I'll reconsider my opinion. As for now, i'm pretty sure that trading less for a whole lot more is ever a bad idea.

 

There's nothing wrong with liking his trades, especially after 2018.

 

I liked several of them myself, including the Thornburg trade, as i didn't see any reason why it would be the absolute disaster that it was. Had Thornburg actually pitched like he did in Milwaukee, would anyone really be complaining about Dubon? Getting a pre-arbitration closer should cost a bit. Look at other teams prices for them. (Ken Giles to Houston, for example.)

 

But I am wondering if Henry really signed off on any of this beforehand. Did he just let DD do things, as long as they worked out? After 3 straight division titles and a WSC, one has to think DD should have some autonomy.

 

Carson Smith? Reportedly Seattle was happy to deal him due to their fear of arm troubles. DD really didn't give up much, but he also got nothing.

 

Kimbrel was an overpay IMO based on that we gave up two top 100 prospects at the time, plus a third who eventually became one, and also took on the entire contract. Usually if you pay full fair, the trade price goes down.

 

For Sale, Moncada was a lot and so was Kopech. But Sale was on one of the best contracts in MLB. He was supposed to cost a lot. Sort of the opposite of the Kimbrel deal where Kimbrel's contract was, at the very least, fair to high for his position.

 

Espinoza for Pomeranz seemed stupid at the time, but given how Espinoza fell apart, one has to wonder maybe DD had some inkling of his condition? I mean, maybe he at the very least figured "High ceiling, but the arm is risky." I can see that. And Pomeranz pitched very well for the Sox for a while, and even made an All Star team. Not a bad trade, IMO.

 

It did seem like the funds suddenly dried up this offseason. Like Henry finally said "Whoa. you're spending how much? We have limits here. high limits, but still limits." And DD thought "Wait. I need a closer. Oh well. At least I got Colten Brewer finally ." Otherwise, why bring back Pearce and Eovaldi for the whole off-season budget while letting Kimbrel and Kelly walk without replacement, unless there was a change in the plans midstream?

 

That's why I don't think Henry was even involved until he started getting the bill. Really the only other option is that DD is an idiot...

Edited September 12, 2019 by notin

[Slasher9]

Agree. Completely. JH didn't become a millionaire by turning his big decisions over to someone else, and no matter how much money one has $145M to Chris Sale, $217M to David Price and a projected ~$250M or more to Mookie Betts is a lot of money.

My opinion (FWIW) is that DD was given a framework within which to work and JH didn't want to be bothered with rubber stamping contracts like $2.6M to Sandy Leon, $1.6M to Matt Barnes or even $6.5M to Mitch Moreland but when those salaries start to run into nine figures he damn well wants to be consulted!

 

bingo.

[notin]

Agree. Completely. JH didn't become a millionaire by turning his big decisions over to someone else, and no matter how much money one has $145M to Chris Sale, $217M to David Price and a projected ~$250M or more to Mookie Betts is a lot of money.

My opinion (FWIW) is that DD was given a framework within which to work and JH didn't want to be bothered with rubber stamping contracts like $2.6M to Sandy Leon, $1.6M to Matt Barnes or even $6.5M to Mitch Moreland but when those salaries start to run into nine figures he damn well wants to be consulted!

 

 

Oh I wouldn't be surprised at all if even the 9 figure deals were left to DD alone. I would posit the alternative, that he didn't get to be a billionaire by not hiring people to help him run his ventures properly. He's got a lot of diversity, and paying attention to everything seems like a lot. But, like any manager, he hires people who can do the job, and then lets them, as long as it is working out. DD would have bought himself a longer leash with 3 straight division titles and WSC. And certainly, as DD had gotten Henry a title before in Florida, I can see Henry simply trusting DD to run things in a manner DD seems fit. Why is that so outrageous?

[notin]

We actually had more than clues before Kennedy became the CEO. Now its unclear at least to me whether the Pres of Baseball Ops makes his case to Kennedy and then its Kennedy that decides if he will take major signing's to Henry himself for Henry's approval or if the CEO brings the Pres of Ops along and allows him to make his case in person.

 

Based on what we "knew" before Kennedy became CEO, it appeared obvious that the Pres of baseball ops (or GM if there was nobody titled as Pres of Ops) would go directly to Henry to get final approval for high ticket contracts with Larry Lucchino along for the ride while he was around, throwing his weight one way or the other.

 

We also no longer know where the cutoff is in a definition of a signing as high ticket.

 

I would think that the organization would have had to go to Henry for a final approval on the Sale extension but not the Eovaldi or the Pearce signings. To be clear, keeping ownership in the loop is not the same thing as seeking approval for a big deal. I would expect the owner to be kept in the loop for Major League signings....all of them.

 

This is not to say that rejecting a proposal for a high ticket contract from the organization to the owner in this town is an easy decision to come to. NOT IN THIS TOWN.

 

Lets say Henry rejected the Sale extension. Does anybody think that would not have gotten out in the media eventually and picked over in painful detail if that went wrong?

 

If it were me in Henry's position, I would have preferred that my Pres of Baseball Ops and my CEO figure out that the Sale extension in light of his issues with wear on his arm and his recent late season issues was premature and whatever money it cost to let the 2019 season play out was better than being stuck with that contract for 5 years given that better information, more complete information was only months away.

 

OK, that;s something

[notin]

All we know is what's come out to the public. But there is some evidence of Henry being involved in certain big transactions.

 

Just a few examples that come to mind:

 

1) When the Red Sox met with Teixeira and Boras, it was Henry who announced afterward, rather disgustedly, that the Sox were not going to be signing him.

 

2) He made the statement about it not being a good idea to sign long term deals with pitchers over 30, or words to that effect.

 

3) Regarding the Sale extension, he said that the team made a mistake in how they handled the Lester negotiations and that they didn't want to do the same thing with Sale.

 

OK so there is some public events that indicate his involvement. While we don't know when he gets involved, he does. There are certainly some owners whose involvement is nothing more than simply giving up a budget, and some even less involved. For example, I have a hard time believing Jerry Reinsdorf approves every big deal the White Sox and Bulls both make, beyond maybe judging everything by the team's results vs the budget.

[S5Dewey]

Oh I wouldn't be surprised at all if even the 9 figure deals were left to DD alone. I would posit the alternative, that he didn't get to be a billionaire by not hiring people to help him run his ventures properly. He's got a lot of diversity, and paying attention to everything seems like a lot. But, like any manager, he hires people who can do the job, and then lets them, as long as it is working out. DD would have bought himself a longer leash with 3 straight division titles and WSC. And certainly, as DD had gotten Henry a title before in Florida, I can see Henry simply trusting DD to run things in a manner DD seems fit. Why is that so outrageous?

 

No more - or less - outrageous than I what I said.

 

I've often said that I'd like to be a fly on the wall during some of the discussions between JH, DD. Lucchino, Theo, Farrell, Cora, etc. that involved the Red Sox. "What? You signed WHO... for HOW MUCH MONEY?? This damn well better work!!" LOL

[notin]

No more - or less - outrageous than I what I said.

 

I've often said that I'd like to be a fly on the wall during some of the discussions between JH, DD. Lucchino, Theo, Farrell, Cora, etc. that involved the Red Sox. "What? You signed WHO... for HOW MUCH MONEY?? This damn well better work!!" LOL

 

Oh that might be a verbatim quote. But DD certainly has some level of autonomy. Just no idea what it is if it exists....

[sk7326]

The firing is both strange and kind of understandable. I mean Dombrowski and Henry go way back - Henry can't pretend that he did not know what Dombrowski would do. Indeed, Henry probably ordered it. So it's weird when Henry complained about profitability and plundering the farm. He told Dombrowski to do it - and Dombrowski's moves contributed to the single most dominant Red Sox team ever.

 

Did Dombrowski do a good job? Relative to Henry's charge - absolutely. He traded a lot of the farm for major league help - but for the most part he got the help he was looking for. He also identified the gems in the system and promoted them aggressively. I'm not sure every GM would have thrown Devers and Benintendi into the fire like he did, and he was vindicated.

 

There are a lot of good candidates - indeed many of them Red Sox alums. The new guy will have some big decisions - so it is a good time to put him in charge. Either way, the whiplash shown by Henry here is not really a healthy way to run a club.

[dgalehouse]

John Henry has often been heralded as a great owner . But let's be real ; his success is largely due to his willingness to spend big . Now , he seems to be backing off the spending a bit . For the owners to be scared off by the " Luxury Tax " that they themselves insisted on putting in , is laughable indeed . The putrid Kansas City Royals just sold for two billion , for heavens sake . These guys are soaking the fans , raking in the money , always looking for ways to hold down salaries and many always have their hand out for " revenue sharing " dollars .

[dgalehouse]

The Sox organization seems a little dysfunctional to me . They brought in Theo , who had great success and put an end to the dreaded curse . Then they irritated him so much that he left for a new challenge . Ben came in and tried to emulate Theo . He had some success , but then made some mistakes and faltered . They stripped him of most of his authority and pretty much forced his resignation too . Enter Dombrowski . D.D. had tremendous success until stumbling this year . He was summarily fired at midnight , during a Patriots game .And we weren't even given a reason . No press conference . No explanation . No nothing . Not a very good scene .

[Slasher9]

4 parades in 15 years with Chaos.

I will ride or die with it....

[Bellhorn04]

4 parades in 15 years with Chaos.

I will ride or die with it....

 

Yeah, that's my kind of Chaos too.

[moonslav59]

There's a method to the madness.

[Nick]

Now that we got rid of our biggest problem, DD, we should win in 2020?

 

We still line up

 

Betts

Devers

JD

Xander

Beni

Chavis

Vaz

Hernadez

JBJ

 

If healthy, E Rod, Sale, Price and Eovaldi should be above average.

 

Our bullpen can only get better I would think.

[cp176]

There's nothing wrong with liking his trades, especially after 2018.

 

I liked several of them myself, including the Thornburg trade, as i didn't see any reason why it would be the absolute disaster that it was. Had Thornburg actually pitched like he did in Milwaukee, would anyone really be complaining about Dubon? Getting a pre-arbitration closer should cost a bit. Look at other teams prices for them. (Ken Giles to Houston, for example.)

 

But I am wondering if Henry really signed off on any of this beforehand. Did he just let DD do things, as long as they worked out? After 3 straight division titles and a WSC, one has to think DD should have some autonomy.

 

Carson Smith? Reportedly Seattle was happy to deal him due to their fear of arm troubles. DD really didn't give up much, but he also got nothing.

 

Kimbrel was an overpay IMO based on that we gave up two top 100 prospects at the time, plus a third who eventually became one, and also took on the entire contract. Usually if you pay full fair, the trade price goes down.

 

For Sale, Moncada was a lot and so was Kopech. But Sale was on one of the best contracts in MLB. He was supposed to cost a lot. Sort of the opposite of the Kimbrel deal where Kimbrel's contract was, at the very least, fair to high for his position.

 

Espinoza for Pomeranz seemed stupid at the time, but given how Espinoza fell apart, one has to wonder maybe DD had some inkling of his condition? I mean, maybe he at the very least figured "High ceiling, but the arm is risky." I can see that. And Pomeranz pitched very well for the Sox for a while, and even made an All Star team. Not a bad trade, IMO.

 

It did seem like the funds suddenly dried up this offseason. Like Henry finally said "Whoa. you're spending how much? We have limits here. high limits, but still limits." And DD thought "Wait. I need a closer. Oh well. At least I got Colten Brewer finally ." Otherwise, why bring back Pearce and Eovaldi for the whole off-season budget while letting Kimbrel and Kelly walk without replacement, unless there was a change in the plans midstream?

 

That's why I don't think Henry was even involved until he started getting the bill. Really the only other option is that DD is an idiot...

 

Honestly notin about the only place here where i think differently is that I cannot imagine remotely JH not having his finger on the money bag pouch. As for the rest, yes I get it.

I do have to wonder why though on occasion so many talk so much about how this man has single handedly decimated our farm. I think that he did lighten the load in an attempt to bring in some real quality but if the majority of the guys that were traded represent a farm decimation, I would have to say that there really wasn't a great deal of real quality when Dd came on board. The good ones are playing for us for the most part.

[oldtimer]

Now that we got rid of our biggest problem, DD, we should win in 2020?

 

We still line up

 

Betts

Devers

JD

Xander

Beni

Chavis

Vaz

Hernadez

JBJ

 

If healthy, E Rod, Sale, Price and Eovaldi should be above average.

 

Our bullpen can only get better I would think.

 

A lot of them are playing now and not just the pitching is weak but the offense is flat and the players look disinterested. I'll be interest to see which of your listed players returns for the 2020 season.

[dgalehouse]

A lot of them are playing now and not just the pitching is weak but the offense is flat and the players look disinterested. I'll be interest to see which of your listed players returns for the 2020 season.

 

The new boss may make a lot of changes or maybe just a few tweaks . It should make for an interesting off season .

[notin]

The new boss may make a lot of changes or maybe just a few tweaks . It should make for an interesting off season .

 

Just like the last two

[Bellhorn04]

Just like the last two

 

Well, we are guaranteed some news items this time around.

[TylerD]

Bring in Tony Larussa. Someone suggested it on another board, I like it.... that or Van Damme, he knows how to kick ass. Either one works.

[moonslav59]

Honestly notin about the only place here where i think differently is that I cannot imagine remotely JH not having his finger on the money bag pouch. As for the rest, yes I get it.

I do have to wonder why though on occasion so many talk so much about how this man has single handedly decimated our farm. I think that he did lighten the load in an attempt to bring in some real quality but if the majority of the guys that were traded represent a farm decimation, I would have to say that there really wasn't a great deal of real quality when Dd came on board. The good ones are playing for us for the most part.

 

Our farm was one of the best in MLB when DD joined the team. Almost every one who ranks farm systems had us in the top 5 or 6, maybe top 10, at worst.

 

One can argue they were overrated and DD got the best or near the best anyone could possibly get for them, but the fact is it was ranked highly.

 

In hindsight, several of the top prospects have already shown they are flops- like Guerra. Other are showing or starting to show promise- like Moncada. Others got hurt or are still not ready for the bigs, yet.

 

Here's the soxprospects.com top 20 rankings at the end of 2015:

 

Moncada

Devers

Espinoza

Margot

Beni

Guerra

Kopech (was 5th when traded)

Johnson

Travis

Marrero

Chavis

Basabe (was 7th when traded)

Allen

Ball

Rijo

Longhi

Marco

Dubon (was 10th when traded)

Light

Stanki

 

Red= Traded

 

It wasn't a total gut, but it was pretty massive.

 

I'm glad he won a ring for us, but we are paying for it, now.

 

#4 Bleacher Report:

https://bleacherreport.com/articles/2564903-re-ranking-all-30-mlb-farm-systems-after-the-2015-milb-season#slide26

 

#6 Baseball Prospectus: https://www.baseballprospectus.com/prospects/article/25592/2015-prospects-2015-organizational-rankings/

 

#1 MLB.com

Red Sox head list of Top 10 Minor League systems | MLB.com

WWW.MLB.COM

---

The Official Site of Major League Baseball

Edited September 12, 2019 by moonslav59

[jad]

Bring in Tony Larussa. Someone suggested it on another board, I like it.... that or Van Damme, he knows how to kick ass. Either one works.

 

Or Bobby Valentine! Ass-kicking is just what this team needs.

[oldtimer]

Betts is playing well, beni is not. Hard to understand slumps and hot streaks. Will some coach help Beni?

[notin]

Well, we are guaranteed some news items this time around.

 

Other than hiring a GM? Which isn’t guaranteed either as the Sox could theoretically continue with the status quo...

[OH FOY]

Think about this, last night the guy who started against us was the last guy we developed in the Minors as a Competent Starting Pitcher. He's 34 or 35 years old.

Dodgers are the #1 team that invests in Scouting. #2 Houston, #3 Yankees. Sox are #24. With Theo we were #1 for years. He knew the importance of Scouting.

You can twist yourself into a knot anyway you want.

It Starts with Pitching.

Keep it simple.

Simple is genius.

Edited September 13, 2019 by OH FOY!

[OH FOY]

I pay for PerfectGame it is the #1 site for Scouting and Prospects, unfortunately I cannot post the numbers, how much teams invest in Scouting, (wont let me). So just have to take my word. Just like BSJ. (Boston Sports Journal)

[Bellhorn04]

Other than hiring a GM? Which isn’t guaranteed either as the Sox could theoretically continue with the status quo...

 

You're a killjoy, man. You know there are going to be news items.

 

-New head of baseball ops.

-Will JDM opt out or not?

-Will Betts be traded or stay?

-What will they do about JBJ?

-Will Holt be re-signed or let go?

-Who will replace Porcello?

 

For starters.