The Pen

[OH FOY]

If I were the Sox I would sign him, this year's money wont be for a full year, you'll pay some Luxury Tax, but next year some money will come off the books, heck Pedey might retire, we should be able to afford him, and get a Closer. Were not getting a Draft Pick, so a little penalty now, and get the 9th inning shut down. Regular season we need Kimbrel, against the many bum teams in Major League baseball, including the Guardians.

[notin]

If I were the Sox I would sign him, this year's money wont be for a full year, you'll pay some Luxury Tax, but next year some money will come off the books, heck Pedey might retire, we should be able to afford him, and get a Closer. Were not getting a Draft Pick, so a little penalty now, and get the 9th inning shut down. Regular season we need Kimbrel, against the many bum teams in Major League baseball, including the Guardians.

 

Why would Pedroia retire?

 

If you were owed $50,000 from your employer for not working and all you had to do to collect it was not retire, would you?

 

Now imagine that instead of $50,000, it was $25,000,000...

[jacksonianmarch]

Oh foy, if the Sox sign Kimbrel and shoot past the final barrier, their 2020 first rounder will drop by ten spots as well. Losing a 4th rounder is annoying for the Sox, but losing what will amount to $500K in draft pool and ten spots for a second year in a row is a big issue

[notin]

Oh foy, if the Sox sign Kimbrel and shoot past the final barrier, their 2020 first rounder will drop by ten spots as well. Losing a 4th rounder is annoying for the Sox, but losing what will amount to $500K in draft pool and ten spots for a second year in a row is a big issue

 

Eh. Not really. Not with how Dombrowski drafts...

[notin]

It's hard to know how much just one GM values Dalbec or Ockimey or Scherf or anyone not named D Hernandez, Chatham, Casas or Duran.

 

Ockimey was available to everybody last December for nothing more than a roster spot reserved for a backup utility infielder. And every team passed.

 

No one is giving up anything the Sox need just for the ability to stick Ockimey in AAA...

[OH FOY]

Why would Pedroia retire?

 

If you were owed $50,000 from your employer for not working and all you had to do to collect it was not retire, would you?

 

Now imagine that instead of $50,000, it was $25,000,000...

 

OK so he doesn't retire, you got Sandoval, Porcello, Pearce, coming off. Don't worry about 1st Round Picks, crap shoot anyway. Trey Ball's name ring a bell. Sox need to lengthen their BP, for the Starters this year.

[OH FOY]

Ockimey was available to everybody last December for nothing more than a roster spot reserved for a backup utility infielder. And every team passed.

 

No one is giving up anything the Sox need just for the ability to stick Ockimey in AAA...

 

Agree, not much in the Minors for Trade bait. Besides you have to think other teams might be looking too, and they might have better Prospects to offer.

Edited May 30, 2019 by OH FOY!

[notin]

OK so he doesn't retire, you got Sandoval, Porcello, Pearce, coming off. Don't worry about 1st Round Picks, crap shoot anyway. Trey Ball's name ring a bell. Sox need to lengthen their BP, for the Starters this year.

 

Oh I wouldn’t sweat the draft pick. The guy running the Sox draft took Kyle Sleeth with the #2 overall pick. (Of course he used another #2 pick to get Verlander. He does have some hits.)

 

The Sox will lose Porcello, Sandoval, Pearce, Moreland, and Thornburg off the books, which is about $54mill in AAV. But they will see raises to a few players, notably Betts, that cut into that. (Also bringing back Porcello might be a good idea.)

 

On the trade market, the best chips the Sox can part with are probably Dalbec and Chatham, since both are close to MLB but blocked long term. (Although the Sox could squeeze one in depending on where Chavis plays.)

 

But no one will be making any big moves yet, because other teams will want all the offers on the table.

 

So for now, internal options and the waiver wire are the best bets. While moved like these are typically less likely to make an impact, unlike trades, they can easily be undone.

 

That’s why the Sox might be better off right now getting Rodney and promoting Mejia. If either is no better than what they have, release the deadweight for minimal cost. The Sox would only need to clear one 40 man roster spot, but that could happen with a DFA of 31yo career minor leaguer Josh Smith...

[OH FOY]

Oh I wouldn’t sweat the draft pick. The guy running the Sox draft took Kyle Sleeth with the #2 overall pick. (Of course he used another #2 pick to get Verlander. He does have some hits.)

 

The Sox will lose Porcello, Sandoval, Pearce, Moreland, and Thornburg off the books, which is about $54mill in AAV. But they will see raises to a few players, notably Betts, that cut into that. (Also bringing back Porcello might be a good idea.)

 

On the trade market, the best chips the Sox can part with are probably Dalbec and Chatham, since both are close to MLB but blocked long term. (Although the Sox could squeeze one in depending on where Chavis plays.)

 

But no one will be making any big moves yet, because other teams will want all the offers on the table.

 

So for now, internal options and the waiver wire are the best bets. While moved like these are typically less likely to make an impact, unlike trades, they can easily be undone.

 

That’s why the Sox might be better off right now getting Rodney and promoting Mejia. If either is no better than what they have, release the deadweight for minimal cost. The Sox would only need to clear one 40 man roster spot, but that could happen with a DFA of 31yo career minor leaguer Josh Smith...

 

Weekend series could be the evaluation the Sox need.

[jung]

Teams didn't want to give him more than what Britton got. By the time he lowered his demands, the teams had already filled their slots

 

So his agent isn't gauging the market, understanding who is signed and who is not and advising you accordingly. That would be hard to imagine.

 

Kimbrel is NEVER going to make up the money for putting himself on the shelf for this year and I don't see a team including the Sox desperate enough to give Kimbrel years....not IMO happening. Seems to me that Kimbrel is on the shelf because he put himself on the shelf.

 

Kimbrel is a 31 year old hard throwing reliever with everything going in the wrong direction that was basically pulled off closer duties by the end of post season last year. If he is lucky, he ends up with a deal that takes him through whatever is left of this season and next season. He needs to get real about his expectations or he is going to spend the entire year on the shelf. Nobody is giving him the 5 years he wanted originally and there is no indication that he is even at this moment interested in a 1 or 2 or even 3 year deal.

[jacksonianmarch]

If I were Kimbrel, I’d mandate at least a deal for this year and next. These shelf guys who come in for June almost always suck in the year they return then get back to career norms the following season

[dgalehouse]

The foundation of a strong bullpen is a lights out closer. Then , a good eighth inning set up man . Then a good lefty / righty combination to match up in the seventh . Throw in a couple of other good arms and you have a strong bullpen. This is a tried and true system. You don't need the boys in the dweeb room sorting through their multitude of stats and coming up with some cockamamie new ideas about bullpens and " leverage situations."

[notin]

The foundation of a strong bullpen is a lights out closer. Then , a good eighth inning set up man . Then a good lefty / righty combination to match up in the seventh . Throw in a couple of other good arms and you have a strong bullpen. This is a tried and true system. You don't need the boys in the dweeb room sorting through their multitude of stats and coming up with some cockamamie new ideas about bullpens and " leverage situations."

 

So no one had a good bullpen before 1995?

[Bellhorn04]

The foundation of a strong bullpen is a lights out closer. Then , a good eighth inning set up man . Then a good lefty / righty combination to match up in the seventh . Throw in a couple of other good arms and you have a strong bullpen. This is a tried and true system. You don't need the boys in the dweeb room sorting through their multitude of stats and coming up with some cockamamie new ideas about bullpens and " leverage situations."

 

So all you need is 6 good relievers!

 

Getting that many good relievers is sort of the hard part...

[moonslav59]

So all you need is 6 good relievers!

 

Getting that many good relievers is sort of the hard part...

 

Especially after you spent your wad and then some to build as great team around the pen.

[jacksonianmarch]

I think what he is saying is you don't build a house by making the roof first. Your best guy is the one who pitches when it matters most. Close game, final outs. Then you build back from there. Well, the best pen arm is Barnes and he hasn't been sniffing the closers role. He does have 3 blown saves like Brasier, but I think all of his are in the 8th inning role. Brasier has been seeing the lion's share of save opportunities and has clearly not been up to the task.

[dgalehouse]

Especially after you spent your wad and then some to build as great team around the pen.

 

Might not be the smartest thing to spend your wad and then some building a great team , then have nothing left for the pen . After all , just about every close game comes down to depending on the bullpen. A third of the way into the season , we have nine blown saves , even though many think they have done well so far . We are currently in third place , eight games out . We have won three straight A.L. East titles . I would like another .

[moonslav59]

Might not be the smartest thing to spend your wad and then some building a great team , then have nothing left for the pen . After all , just about every close game comes down to depending on the bullpen. A third of the way into the season , we have nine blown saves , even though many think they have done well so far . We are currently in third place , eight games out . We have won three straight A.L. East titles . I would like another .

 

You may be right, but many games wouldn't end up being close, if the rest of the team was worse.

[fxkatt]

Re: trad. stopper in 9th vs. best hitters inning. It's funny for all these years I've heard that the reason there is an actual stopper is that the 9th inning is the pressure inning and only certain pitchers match up to that final inning. Suddenly this 9th inning is portable, so now you can have your less heroic reliever on in the actual 9th inning, which is often no longer the pressure inning. Got it? Who's on first?

 

I think that when you jerk your best reliever around from 6-9th inning, what you're doing is jerking all the relievers around so that none have a natural position or expectation. Each becomes more of a puppet to be yanked and pulled by the hands of the manager.

Edited May 30, 2019 by fxkatt

[notin]

I think what he is saying is you don't build a house by making the roof first. Your best guy is the one who pitches when it matters most. Close game, final outs. Then you build back from there. Well, the best pen arm is Barnes and he hasn't been sniffing the closers role. He does have 3 blown saves like Brasier, but I think all of his are in the 8th inning role. Brasier has been seeing the lion's share of save opportunities and has clearly not been up to the task.

 

That’s because the ninth inning isn’t always the toughest.

 

Like in Tuesday’s loss. Barnes came in and faced the 3-4-5 hitters in the Cleveland lineup in the eighth. Sure, they could have saved him for the ninth to face Roberto Perez (career .208 hitter), Jake Bauers, and Greg Allen (.087 BA). But then who was going to face Santana, Luplow and Jose Ramirez? Ryan Brasier? The guy couldn’t retire the hitters at the bottom of the order, but he’s going to be successful against the heart of the order?

 

If you don’t have good relievers, the roles don’t matter and rigidly assigning them roles just because isn’t going to work. Because they aren’t very good. All you’re doing is deciding to get beaten in the 8th inning instead of the 9th.

 

And if you have a lot of good relievers, roles don’t matter because, well, everyone is good...

[Maxbialystock]

One more time. Last night was the 13th straight game without a day off. Those 13 games include one 13 inning game, one start that lasted 1 out, and another that lasted 2 outs. Six of those games were vs. the Astros, who are having another great year, and three vs. the Guardians, who have a winning record.

 

Last year's bullpen was pretty good--not great--and this year's is only missing Kimbrel, who was terrible in the postseason last year and who wants a king's ransom--I think it's $100K/out for five years--to return. We also lost Kelly, who was great in the postseason, but who has been horrendous with the Dodgers so far.

 

And this. Last year with the greatest closer the human race has ever seen--said Kimbrel--the Sox had 20 blown saves. This year with the worst bullpen, worst closers, and worst everything ever seen, the Sox so far have 9 blown saves which, if it keeps up, would become 27 blown saves.

[notin]

The Sox have called up Shawaryn and placed Velasquez on the IL (Incapable List?)

 

Shawaryn will join the bullpen...

[vegasbob]

The Sox have called up Shawaryn and placed Velasquez on the IL (Incapable List?)

 

Shawaryn will join the bullpen...

 

Go back two months to the first game. The pen was being questioned all winter and ST. 2 months later look at the IL list and the active throwers who comprise the pen, including the ones who have been up and down, some multiple times. That was not the plan, my friends.

 

22 pitchers have recorded stats . Hernandez, Weber, Smith, Lakins, Taylor, Shawaryn and finally Eduardo Nunez were not being counted on this early.

 

IL tours so far : Eovaldi, Price, Thornburg, Johnson, now Velazquez. This group was being counted on. Price is back, but got ill and effectively missed one more.

 

Clearly, this hot mess falls on Dana LaVangie so we need a thread ripping him.

Edited May 30, 2019 by vegasbob

[moonslav59]

Certainly our pen has been and was projected to be our weakest area.

 

They've actually done better than most expected, until the last 2 games.

 

I'm never one to call on decisions to be made over just 2 games, but just because the pen was over performing does not mean the pen is and will be fine. Chances are it won't be fine.

 

We can try to wait for Eovaldi, in hopes that our pen can be bolstered by Weber or Johnson, but let's not kid ourselves. We've gotten away with a pretty bad pen for long enough. We may continue to see Walden, Workman, Barnes and Hembree doing well, but even if that happens, it's not enough. We need to look to trade for a solid pen arm, soon.

[notin]

Go back two months to the first game. The pen was being questioned all winter and ST. 2 months later look at the IL list and the active throwers who comprise the pen, including the ones who have been up and down, some multiple times. That was not the plan, my friends.

 

22 pitchers have recorded stats . Hernandez, Weber, Smith, Lakins, Taylor, Shawaryn and finally Eduardo Nunez were not being counted on this early.

 

IL tours so far : Eovaldi, Price, Thornburg, Johnson, now Velazquez. This group was being counted on. Price is back, but got ill and effectively missed one more.

 

Clearly, this hot mess falls on Dana LaVangie so we need a thread ripping him.

 

It always looked like the plan was to have Thornburg and Carson Smith anchor the bullpen once Kimbrel left.

 

The problem is, neither of those pitchers have been able to stay healthy. And what’s left is a cast of pitchers dgalehouse likes to call “ham and eggers.”

 

Pitchers like Velasquez, Brasier, Brewer, Johnson, Weber, Taylor, and Josh Smith are all borderline MLB talents showing the world why they were all readily available. Normally Walden would fit in this category as well, but he’s having a career year...

[moonslav59]

It always looked like the plan was to have Thornburg and Carson Smith anchor the bullpen once Kimbrel left.

 

The problem is, neither of those pitchers have been able to stay healthy. And what’s left is a cast of pitchers dgalehouse likes to call “ham and eggers.”

 

Pitchers like Velasquez, Brasier, Brewer, Johnson, Weber, Taylor, and Josh Smith are all borderline MLB talents showing the world why they were all readily available. Normally Walden would fit in this category as well, but he’s having a career year...

 

Yes, and Barnes, Workman and Hembree are fine for certain roles, but even if Walden continues doing well, 4 is NOT enough. Even if Brasier rebounds, we'll need more pen help.

 

[Kimmi]

If cost were no issue I'd like to have Kimbrel, sure, who wouldn't?

 

Obviously cost is a big issue. On top of that, there are some legit performance concerns. When last seen in the 2018 postseason he was a bit scary, and since then he hasn't pitched at all.

 

Well, cost is always an issue with me.

 

But of course, if we could get him for a cheap, one year deal, I'd take him.

[Kimmi]

Then why isnt he the closer?

 

The best of a s***** bunch doesnt make him good. It just makes him the best of a s***** bunch. He sucks. His numbers look good, but the law of averages will catch up.

 

Because the role and title of 'closer' are overrated.

[Kimmi]

I am also not the guy doling out the cash here. These guys are supposed to be able to read a market. That is why they are there. DD read the market correctly on JDM. He pounced early for Eo and Pearce and proved to get emotional about something he should have been more aware of

 

Dombrowski did not get emotional. Just stop.

 

If he signed Eovaldi and Pearce because he became emotional over them, he has no business being in a baseball FO, much less being President of Baseball Ops.

[moonslav59]

Because the role and title of 'closer' are overrated.

 

Barnes is our "closer," but Cora chooses to use him in earlier inning high leverage situations, if they arise.

 

If Workman continues doing well, Cora can afford to use either one in early, key situations and save the other for rapping up a game.

 

It would be nice to have a third guy to count on, so Hembree and Walden are not counted on for too much.

 

IMO, we have 4 guys I trust, and most productive pens have 6 or 7.

 

You know me, I hate to trade prospects from an already highly depleted farm, but I think our need for another solid pen arm is apparent and essential.

 

I'd be on the phone 24/7, right now.