And the off season begins (2018-19)

[Bellhorn04]

...and that just seems to be the way it is these days. It still amazes me how that ballpark sells out game after game after game.

 

Well, this might sound a little simplistic, but you only need to get about 35,000 people in there, which is a tiny fraction of Red Sox Nation. And a big chunk of the crowd is season ticket holders or people they sold or gave their tickets to.

 

All you have to do is put a team on the field that's worth seeing. JH knows that very well.

[notin]

This thread title is misleading. When does the off-season actually begin?

[Bellhorn04]

This thread title is misleading. When does the off-season actually begin?

 

For us it began when we finished off the Dodgers.

[BillyWilliams]

Shell companies handle concessions and memorabilia sales.

 

 

 

That's just an outright lie.

[notin]

Shell companies handle concessions and memorabilia sales.

 

 

 

That's just an outright lie.

 

 

I assumed the owner of the ballpark (which isn’t always the team) leased out space for concession and memorabilia suppliers, who handle their own finances regarding sales. Memorabilia suppliers likely purchase MLB-licensed gear, but that is a separate transaction.

 

Anyone ever worked concessions at a ballpark? Who signed your check?

[BillyWilliams]

 

 

I assumed the owner of the ballpark (which isn’t always the team) leased out space for concession and memorabilia suppliers, who handle their own finances regarding sales. Memorabilia suppliers likely purchase MLB-licensed gear, but that is a separate transaction.

 

Anyone ever worked concessions at a ballpark? Who signed your check?

 

I know at one point Aramark was in control of the majority of the concessions in MLB parks. They certainly are not a "shell company".

[notin]

 

I know at one point Aramark was in control of the majority of the concessions in MLB parks. They certainly are not a "shell company".

 

 

That’s what I thought. There are also some popular chain outlets in a lot of ballparks.

 

I think the only money the team/park owner makes is from leasing the space...

[BillyWilliams]

 

 

That’s what I thought. There are also some popular chain outlets in a lot of ballparks.

 

I think the only money the team/park owner makes is from leasing the space...

 

As I said, moonslob's statement was an outright lie.

[moonslav59]

 

As I said, moonslob's statement was an outright lie.

 

OK, maybe "shell company" was not the correct term, but money made off of these sales can be easily hidden as non team profits.

[sk7326]

I keep hearing about what's "good for the game" and I don't understand what's being said. "The game" is prospering, with more money coming in than can be spent. The players are making millions and salaries are escalating. The owners are swimming in cash, and that's without considering the escalating value of the franchises when/if the owners sell those franchises.

 

So who's it not "good for"? Answer: The fans, who now have to tie up $1000 for a family of four to visit Boston for a couple of weekend games. It's great for everyone else!

 

But, as a local politician friend of mine would say, "We must like it. We put up with it".

 

1. Those are independent decisions. We know this because rebuilding teams are not lowering ticket prices in 100% correlation with how they slash payroll. Businesses want to maximize profit - so they will charge prices and pay labor in an effort to do that. Now sports teams are a little different since they are often vanity purchases for dudes who are already loaded, but the general principle holds. The team charges that $1000 because they can, period.

 

2. So - since the money is going into the baseball economy from us (and TV advertisers principally), the question is why is not spending money in free agency or whatever a bad thing?

 

2a. I like baseball. That means I like baseball players playing baseball games. If the players are getting a smaller cut than players in other major team sports - that makes them unhappy and increases the probability of some kind of labor stoppage. I don't like less baseball. Now, I don't think a strike is inevitable. But the owners have time to get out ahead of this and it would be very smart of them to do so.

 

2b. Transactions are cool! I think of ESPN having free agency specials for the NFL and NBA. The NFL in May - when nobody should be thinking about football - gets a weekend of serious coverage to itself because of the draft. The winter meetings were baseball's chance to market itself in the offseason. The current system is depressing that, which lowers year around interest in the game ... which is bad.

 

2c. Related to 2b. Talking about awesome players in the offseason is cool. Having franchise cornerstones be available in free agency makes baseball more fun to follow 12 months a year. The game already does a crappy job celebrating the current players and product (see how joyless the national broadcasters are!). This does not help.

 

2d. More teams should be trying to win - that is why we root for teams. Too few teams are doing that - while a five year rebuild is RATIONAL, this is an entertainment business, and that is not good entertainment.

[Slasher9]

Well, this might sound a little simplistic, but you only need to get about 35,000 people in there, which is a tiny fraction of Red Sox Nation. And a big chunk of the crowd is season ticket holders or people they sold or gave their tickets to.

 

All you have to do is put a team on the field that's worth seeing. JH knows that very well.

 

it also helps that we play our home games in Fenway Park. which is a destination spot/bucket list for every sports fan..let alone Red Sox fan.

[kenmeister]

2d. More teams should be trying to win - that is why we root for teams. Too few teams are doing that - while a five year rebuild is RATIONAL, this is an entertainment business, and that is not good entertainment.

 

Honestly seeing the Mariners dismantle their team after having a good season made me sick to watch.

[Station 13]

Honestly seeing the Mariners dismantle their team after having a good season made me sick to watch.

 

Fluke season. They dismantle because they know they will suck next year.

[harmony]

Fluke season. They dismantle because they know they will suck next year.

The Seattle Mariners could be surprisingly (but characteristically) mediocre this year:

 

https://www.rosterresource.com/mlb-seattle-mariners/

 

Or not.

[Bellhorn04]

it also helps that we play our home games in Fenway Park. which is a destination spot/bucket list for every sports fan..let alone Red Sox fan.

 

Yes, absolutely. And for someone who lives a distance away like me, the ticket prices, while high, are a small part of the total cost of a trip to Boston. So the ticket prices aren't really an issue.

[sk7326]

Fluke season. They dismantle because they know they will suck next year.

 

Right - the decision is RATIONAL ... but anti-entertainment

[notin]

Fluke season. They dismantle because they know they will suck next year.

 

 

Or because they finally came to the realization that Cano was given an awful contract and the only way to get rid of it was to pair him up with their most tradable commodity.

 

And, hey, once you start tearing down it gets difficult to stop...

[moonslav59]

I think the M's made the right decision and are on a path to getting better.

[harmony]

Right - the decision is RATIONAL ... but anti-entertainment

The Seattle roster has some entertainment value:

 

https://www.rosterresource.com/mlb-seattle-mariners/

 

A non-contending team can gamble with an outfield of Mitch Haniger, Mallex Smith and Domingo Santana, ages 28, 25 and 26, under team control for an aggregate 11 seasons, who will earn only a combined $3 million this year despite seasons of 4.6, 3.4 and 3.3 fWAR within the last two years.

 

A non-contending team can gamble on bounce-back seasons from second baseman Dee Gordon and third baseman Kyle Seager while Edwin Encarnacion takes over at first base, Omar Narvaez at catcher, Jay Bruce at designated hitter and Tim Beckham at shortstop until J.P. Crawford is ready. Ryon Healy and Daniel Vogelbach wait in the wings in anticipation of trades of Encarnacion and Bruce.

 

A non-contending team can gamble that 27-year-old Japanese lefthander Yusei Kikuchi replaces 30-year-old southpaw James Paxton in the starting rotation. Nearly 27-year-old lefty Marco Gonzales last season ranked 23rd among all starters in fWAR, just ahead of Clayton Kershaw and Zack Greinke (and nearly a full fWAR ahead of any Red Sox pitcher not named Chris Sale). Even Mike Leake has posted 3.6 fWAR in 36 starts with Seattle. As points of reference, last year Rick Porcello and David Price each posted 2.7 fWAR in 33 and 30 starts, respectively.

 

The Mariners, who will lose some of those gambles, aren't expected to contend but could well avoid their first last-place finish since 2012.

 

While Red Sox fans enjoy another likely winning season this Seattle fan hopes to enjoy the entertainment of the this year's Mariners.

Edited January 23, 2019 by harmony

[sk7326]

The Seattle roster has some entertainment value:

 

https://www.rosterresource.com/mlb-seattle-mariners/

 

A non-contending team can gamble with an outfield of Mitch Haniger, Mallex Smith and Domingo Santana, ages 28, 25 and 26, under team control for an aggregate 11 seasons, who will earn only a combined $3 million this year despite seasons of 4.6, 3.4 and 3.3 fWAR within the last two years.

 

A non-contending team can gamble on bounce-back seasons from second baseman Dee Gordon and third baseman Kyle Seager while Edwin Encarnacion takes over at first base, Omar Narvaez at catcher, Jay Bruce at designated hitter and Tim Beckham at shortstop until J.P. Crawford is ready. Ryon Healy and Daniel Vogelbach wait in the wings in anticipation of trades of Encarnacion and Bruce.

 

A non-contending team can gamble that 27-year-old Japanese lefthander Yusei Kikuchi replaces 30-year-old southpaw James Paxton in the starting rotation. Nearly 27-year-old lefty Marco Gonzales last season ranked 23rd among all starters in fWAR, just ahead of Clayton Kershaw and Zack Greinke (and nearly a full fWAR ahead of any Red Sox pitcher not named Chris Sale). Even Mike Leake has posted 3.6 fWAR in 36 starts with Seattle. As points of reference, last year Rick Porcello and David Price each posted 2.7 fWAR in 33 and 30 starts, respectively.

 

The Mariners, who will lose some of those gambles, aren't expected to contend but could well avoid their first last-place finish since 2012.

 

While Red Sox fans enjoy another likely winning season this Seattle fan hopes to enjoy the entertainment of the this year's Mariners.

 

I think they will have enjoyed a team with a realistic shot at 90 wins more - which was possible. I do not blame them for the moves, but the system which incentivizes it.

[BillyWilliams]

 

OK, maybe "shell company" was not the correct term, but money made off of these sales can be easily hidden as non team profits.

 

How so?

[notin]

 

OK, maybe "shell company" was not the correct term, but money made off of these sales can be easily hidden as non team profits.

 

 

Do teams make any money from concessions, etc.? I honestly don’t know. It might even vary from team to team depending on the contract with the vendor...

[moonslav59]

 

 

Do teams make any money from concessions, etc.? I honestly don’t know. It might even vary from team to team depending on the contract with the vendor...

 

I'm sure money is being made, if you look at the prices of the stuff they sell. My point is that the vendor contract doesn't have to be with the team, it could be a separate contract with the owner of the team or facility (with maybe some money being kicked to the team owner as a non team entity). Maybe I'm wrong, but most businesses find ways to hide profits.

[Bellhorn04]

 

I'm sure money is being made, if you look at the prices of the stuff they sell. My point is that the vendor contract doesn't have to be with the team, it could be a separate contract with the owner of the team or facility (with maybe some money being kicked to the team owner as a non team entity). Maybe I'm wrong, but most businesses find ways to hide profits.

 

Are you saying that most (larger) businesses cheat on their taxes and other filings? That's a really big accusation.

[Nick]

 

Are you saying that most (larger) businesses cheat on their taxes and other filings? That's a really big accusation.

 

 

Hopefully he meant all businesses want to keep their tax liability to minimum, legally.

[notin]

 

I'm sure money is being made, if you look at the prices of the stuff they sell. My point is that the vendor contract doesn't have to be with the team, it could be a separate contract with the owner of the team or facility (with maybe some money being kicked to the team owner as a non team entity). Maybe I'm wrong, but most businesses find ways to hide profits.

 

 

That’s my question - is any percentage of sales going to the team?

 

I assume whoever owns the park leases out the stand to companies like Aramark or Chili’s or Uncle Blood’s Taco Hut for a flat amount, say $10,000 per month. I don’t know if any of them even tack on, say, plus 5% of all sales.

 

And even then, not all teams own the ballpark, do they? If they don’t, do they get any concession revenue even if there is a percentage in the lease agreement?

 

I’m not sure about MLB, but in Chicago, the Bears do not own Soldiers Field; it’s part of the Chicago Park District. Do the Bears get anything from concessions or does it all go to the city?

[notin]

 

Are you saying that most (larger) businesses cheat on their taxes and other filings? That's a really big accusation.

 

 

They don’t cheat per se. But they do lobby to have favorable tax laws written...

Edited January 23, 2019 by notin

[Bellhorn04]

They don’t cheat per de. But they do lobby to have favorable tax laws written...

 

That's a rather large difference from committing fraud and tax evasion.

[notin]

That's a rather large difference from committing fraud and tax evasion.

 

 

Legally, yes. But the methods for doing it cross many ethical lines...

[Bellhorn04]

Legally, yes. But the methods for doing it cross many ethical lines...

 

Heck, we all cross ethical lines in our lives.

 

As accountants we're trained to help our clients pay as little tax as possible while staying within the law. And that is considered to be the right of every taxpayer.

 

What moon's talking about is felony.