Cora and Closers

[Fan_since_Boggs]

Again, I have no issue with Cora's choices. He's by far the best manager we've ever had. It's not even close.

 

Until he wins a championship, there is no way I'm putting Cora above Terry Francona. Championships matter and Francona has two of them.

 

Sure, 108 wins is nice, but a championship is special and the ultimate goal.

[cp176]

Every fan watching or listening to game 4 knew that Cora's absolute goal was "to bridge the way to his Stopper." This was repeated ad nauseam throughout the night to the point of my thinking: "Screw that, just go with the hot, competent hand, because K is not the shutdown stopper the media believes he is." I truly believe that Brasier could have thrown two shut down innings easily last night. He seemed in full control, and he knows he doesn't have that wild wild option that the closer has. I didn't think Sale should have been an option, given Thurs nite. There were too many "brilliant" moves... why not go low key, the way you did with last night's lineup. At least I might have slept after.

 

I'm not going to criticize Cora for any move that he makes. He has been too good over the course of a remarkable season. It is the whole process of scripted pitching that bugs me. I'm not sure that you need designated 7th, 8th inning guys. A guy in that "role" blows through an inning of that magnitude and makes it look easy, couldn't you kind of maybe at least let him start the next inning? Sale - one inning max the other night for sure but Barnes and Brasier - they couldn't of at least started the next inning? it is a plan that is used by almost every team in the game so I guess that is just the way it goes. And no, once the plan is in place you aren't going to change it. Kimbrel in the 9th regardless and there was no other choice. He gets it done or he doesn't. No Kelly and no Workman. Maybe we got a little lucky but it worked. Oh and I feel that I have to add no I am not in favor of closer by committee.

[moonslav59]

Until he wins a championship, there is no way I'm putting Cora above Terry Francona. Championships matter and Francona has two of them.

 

Sure, 108 wins is nice, but a championship is special and the ultimate goal.

 

Tito did a great job, but he also had some off times. I have yet to see Cora have those.

 

To me, it's not close.

[Bellhorn04]

Tito did a great job, but he also had some off times. I have yet to see Cora have those.

 

To me, it's not close.

 

But you're comparing an 8 year stint against a 1 year stint that isn't even complete yet.

 

Tito's one true off year was his 8th year.

[SoxnCycles]

Tito did a great job, but he also had some off times. I have yet to see Cora have those.

 

To me, it's not close.

 

You are also comparing a 1 year record to 8 years.

[SoxnCycles]

But you're comparing an 8 year stint against a 1 year stint that isn't even complete yet.

 

Tito's one true off year was his 8th year.

 

Was it just 8?

I thought it was more, but you are correct.

[cp176]

Until he wins a championship, there is no way I'm putting Cora above Terry Francona. Championships matter and Francona has two of them.

 

Sure, 108 wins is nice, but a championship is special and the ultimate goal.

 

I think that Francona goes down as one of the best ever but not simply because of championships. They help for sure but there have been many many great coaches who never won one. We'll see how Cora does over the long haul - one season does not a career make but he is off to a good start.

if i felt that winning titles was that much of a career definer than i would have to believe that Eli Manning is a better QB than Dan Marino was - I don't. Eli is not a Hall of Famer regardless of the titles.

[moonslav59]

You are also comparing a 1 year record to 11 years.

 

Yes, I know, but you know how I love small sample sizes.

 

Look, my opinion can change over the years, but as of right now, Cora is the best Sox manager I have ever seen.

 

He seems to have a nice balance between loyalty to the players and vets and making everyone feel like they are needed.

 

He uses analytics better and with more success than any previous Sox manager.

 

He got these kids playing fundamentally solid baseball by cutting down on boneheadedness.

 

He got this pen to finish in the top 10 in MLB this year.

 

He kept using Leon and Vaz despite the sub .575 OPS. Brilliant!

 

Instead of our players entering prime years declining, like last year, almost all improved not just over their 2017 numbers but 2016 as well.

 

He exudes a confident calmness that rubs off on the players.

 

He doesn't always take the hot hand out like Tito and JF did to a fault.

 

He got Sale the rest he needed...and others, too.

 

To me, he does many of the things I prefer managers do. I realize I'm biased in many areas, and he seems to do more of what I like.

 

 

 

 

[OH FOY]

4 straight balls to 2 batters in the 9th, scares me. Knowing they needed runners. This has to be cleaned up. Eventually it will bite you in the ass. Good thing for Stanton, in the 9th.

[Slasher9]

It's somewhat comical how passionate some of these discussions get.

 

Here's the thing...on this thread you have a relatively small group of fans, with very divided opinions on what moves Cora should have made or not made. If you took a poll on specific calls you might get a 55-45 split or something.

 

Cora can't make 55-45 decisions. He has to make the call one way or the other and live with it.

 

agree with this completely. but some posters will defend every single call Cora makes. and that is what is kind of silly. conversely, i dont think there is anyone that complains about every single call but some calls deserve second guessing. i think i had a grand total of 8 during the regular season that i posted on the Cora thread.

I have had a couple/few here in the ALDS. but we have advanced. and we have slayed the EE. so in Cora I Trust. but i will still query questionable decision making by him...whether they work or not. you tell me if that is fair or not.....

[Slasher9]

Until he wins a championship, there is no way I'm putting Cora above Terry Francona. Championships matter and Francona has two of them.

 

Sure, 108 wins is nice, but a championship is special and the ultimate goal.

im with you on this one FsB

[redsoxrules]

Yeah until Cora brings this team a championship you can't put him above Francona.

Eventhough Houston is a great team I would be very disappointed if they lost against them and I couldn't care less about this 108 win season.

Cora won't always have a power house team to work with either. Let's see how he does in a few years when the team looks different.

[Bellhorn04]

agree with this completely. but some posters will defend every single call Cora makes. and that is what is kind of silly. conversely, i dont think there is anyone that complains about every single call but some calls deserve second guessing. i think i had a grand total of 8 during the regular season that i posted on the Cora thread.

I have had a couple/few here in the ALDS. but we have advanced. and we have slayed the EE. so in Cora I Trust. but i will still query questionable decision making by him...whether they work or not. you tell me if that is fair or not.....

 

I think it's fair as long as you acknowledge that your own calls are questionable (as are mine).

[Slasher9]

I think it's fair as long as you acknowledge that your own calls are questionable (as are mine).

 

acknowledged.

[moonslav59]

Yeah until Cora brings this team a championship you can't put him above Francona.

Eventhough Houston is a great team I would be very disappointed if they lost against them and I couldn't care less about this 108 win season.

Cora won't always have a power house team to work with either. Let's see how he does in a few years when the team looks different.

 

Do we win 108 games last year, if we had JD?

 

It's my opinion that Cora is a big reason we have a powerhouse team.

[kenmeister]

Whether Sale should have pitched the 9th or not, the fact is that Kimbrel has been shaky for a couple months now. I'm very concerned going into this series with the Astros. We need Kimbrel to be lights out.

[mvp 78]

But you're comparing an 8 year stint against a 1 year stint that isn't even complete yet.

 

Tito's one true off year was his 8th year.

 

Which coincided with Theo's off year.

[mvp 78]

Whether Sale should have pitched the 9th or not, the fact is that Kimbrel has been shaky for a couple months now. I'm very concerned going into this series with the Astros. We need Kimbrel to be lights out.

 

8 earned runs in the final two months of the season. 4 of them were in one game against the O's. That doesn't sound too shaky for me.

 

1.16 WHIP over that time too.

[moonslav59]

8 earned runs in the final two months of the season. 4 of them were in one game against the O's. That doesn't sound too shaky for me.

 

1.16 WHIP over that time too.

 

It's not bad, but it's a step down from Kimbrel's norm.

 

I'm fine with Kimbrel. I just like Sale better.

 

Again, I have no issues with Cora. He's been a godsend.

[notin]

8 earned runs in the final two months of the season. 4 of them were in one game against the O's. That doesn't sound too shaky for me.

 

1.16 WHIP over that time too.

 

His highest K/9 this year was in August. But the last 2 months of the season span 17 IP over 60 days...

[mvp 78]

His highest K/9 this year was in August. But the last 2 months of the season span 17 IP over 60 days...

 

To say "he's shaky" then is just a personal perception.

[notin]

To say "he's shaky" then is just a personal perception.

 

I think it's being weighted against his best days, which might not be completely fair either...

[TylerD]

Whether Sale should have pitched the 9th or not, the fact is that Kimbrel has been shaky for a couple months now. I'm very concerned going into this series with the Astros. We need Kimbrel to be lights out.

 

I trust he will be. Lots of confidence getting that win against their rivals with that much pressure. He was unreal in game one outside of the early home run. I trust Kimbrel will be awesome against the Astros.

[cp176]

agree with this completely. but some posters will defend every single call Cora makes. and that is what is kind of silly. conversely, i dont think there is anyone that complains about every single call but some calls deserve second guessing. i think i had a grand total of 8 during the regular season that i posted on the Cora thread.

I have had a couple/few here in the ALDS. but we have advanced. and we have slayed the EE. so in Cora I Trust. but i will still query questionable decision making by him...whether they work or not. you tell me if that is fair or not.....

 

You really keep track of how many times you question Cora's calls? I realize that we have people here who question and second guess almost every move Cora makes but I have to applaud you for only calling him out 8 times. You know that there are people here who are never wrong right?

[sk7326]

Yes, I know, but you know how I love small sample sizes.

 

Look, my opinion can change over the years, but as of right now, Cora is the best Sox manager I have ever seen.

 

He seems to have a nice balance between loyalty to the players and vets and making everyone feel like they are needed.

 

He uses analytics better and with more success than any previous Sox manager.

 

He got these kids playing fundamentally solid baseball by cutting down on boneheadedness.

 

He got this pen to finish in the top 10 in MLB this year.

 

He kept using Leon and Vaz despite the sub .575 OPS. Brilliant!

 

Instead of our players entering prime years declining, like last year, almost all improved not just over their 2017 numbers but 2016 as well.

 

He exudes a confident calmness that rubs off on the players.

 

He doesn't always take the hot hand out like Tito and JF did to a fault.

 

He got Sale the rest he needed...and others, too.

 

To me, he does many of the things I prefer managers do. I realize I'm biased in many areas, and he seems to do more of what I like.

 

 

 

 

 

Clearly all success is linear - so under Farrell Betts was destined to decline again. This is silly. Cora has certainly helped, but the kids were likely to do better.

 

Francona is the best manager the Red Sox have had since Dick Williams, and it's not close.

 

Cora was a phenomenal managerial prospect, and has shown that the promise was real. That said, I look back at 2013. Farrell looked terrific because of how bad the Red Sox were the year before, and he was an improvement on Valentine just by being a normal person who brought sanity to the workplace.

 

Last year was a negative vibe - despite a successful season - so that this year has been so good makes things seem particularly amazing. Cora has done a really good job - but there is a lot of future left. I mean Francona was excellent with analytics at a time when it was less prevalent. Farrell was shifting infielders on that stuff.

 

He has a lot of the positive of Francona, with the additional positive of speaking Spanish (which I think is damn near a prerequisite for the job now). But Francona was/is a flat exceptional communicator, and did a great job working with young players in a bananas market. Of course Francona had the best media training possible, managing in Philly and having to give media updates on Michael Jordan's progress.

[sk7326]

I'd have pitched Sale the 8th and 9th, but I have no issues with Cora going with the guy who got us here- Kimbrel.

 

As bad as Kimbrel looked, I'm not sure any other pitcher could have regained his composure in such a high leverage situation as Kimbrel put himself into last night.

 

Nobody was warming up in the 9th.

 

It was sink or swim with kimbrel.

 

(Note: I am one of the few Sox fans that still feel (or admit it) that leaving Pedro in was the right thing. Pedro was our best pitcher.)

 

Sale was on a bullpen day ... they still had a Game 5 to plan for. I don't think Sale had another inning of pitches in him while still being available for Game 5. The 2003 decision on Pedro was nuts given the pitch count and given that they tried it once before (in Game 5 of the Oakland series) and almost blew a lead.

 

Cora handled things fine. It wasn't his fault Kimbrel had no idea where his curveball was going. And you still have to go back to Kimbrel. Maybe they should have had someone else ready to go - but Cora had to manage to a degree like he had another chance at this (because he did).

[moonslav59]

Clearly all success is linear - so under Farrell Betts was destined to decline again. This is silly. Cora has certainly helped, but the kids were likely to do better.

 

Francona is the best manager the Red Sox have had since Dick Williams, and it's not close.

 

Cora was a phenomenal managerial prospect, and has shown that the promise was real. That said, I look back at 2013. Farrell looked terrific because of how bad the Red Sox were the year before, and he was an improvement on Valentine just by being a normal person who brought sanity to the workplace.

 

Last year was a negative vibe - despite a successful season - so that this year has been so good makes things seem particularly amazing. Cora has done a really good job - but there is a lot of future left. I mean Francona was excellent with analytics at a time when it was less prevalent. Farrell was shifting infielders on that stuff.

 

He has a lot of the positive of Francona, with the additional positive of speaking Spanish (which I think is damn near a prerequisite for the job now). But Francona was/is a flat exceptional communicator, and did a great job working with young players in a bananas market. Of course Francona had the best media training possible, managing in Philly and having to give media updates on Michael Jordan's progress.

 

It appears you are only looking at Tito's successes, which is fine.

 

I know winning rings is the crown achievement for anyone, and if Cora never wins one, I'll probbaly adjust my opinion, but as of right now, he's the best Sox manager I have ever seen. He's loyal to the players but not to a fault.

 

BTW, I never said or implied success is linear. I expected many of our declining prime players to improve, no matter who was managing.

[moonslav59]

Sale was on a bullpen day ... they still had a Game 5 to plan for. I don't think Sale had another inning of pitches in him while still being available for Game 5. The 2003 decision on Pedro was nuts given the pitch count and given that they tried it once before (in Game 5 of the Oakland series) and almost blew a lead.

 

Cora handled things fine. It wasn't his fault Kimbrel had no idea where his curveball was going. And you still have to go back to Kimbrel. Maybe they should have had someone else ready to go - but Cora had to manage to a degree like he had another chance at this (because he did).

 

If Pedro got out of that inning, nobody would be screaming the choice was "nuts."

 

Pedro was our best pitcher by far. An 80% Pedro was still our best.

 

I'm not saying anyone who wanted him yanked is wrong, but to me, Little's choice had a lot of merit. it wasn't a 100% call, except through hindsight.

[sk7326]

It appears you are only looking at Tito's successes, which is fine.

 

I know winning rings is the crown achievement for anyone, and if Cora never wins one, I'll probbaly adjust my opinion, but as of right now, he's the best Sox manager I have ever seen. He's loyal to the players but not to a fault.

 

BTW, I never said or implied success is linear. I expected many of our declining prime players to improve, no matter who was managing.

 

Tito managed 8 seasons, had 0 losing ones ... the team made the playoffs 5 of the 8 years. They struck gold in 2 of the 5 playoff berths, which given how fickle baseball is, is a pretty good hit rate.

The collapse in 2011 is a negative, which he deserves some blame for. 2010 was a season which somehow did not really end until 2 weeks to go in the season despite a genuinely comical level of injury.

 

The 2013 Cleveland Guardians made a 26 game improvement from 2012 and have not had a losing season since.

[sk7326]

If Pedro got out of that inning, nobody would be screaming the choice was "nuts."

 

Pedro was our best pitcher by far. An 80% Pedro was still our best.

 

I'm not saying anyone who wanted him yanked is wrong, but to me, Little's choice had a lot of merit. it wasn't a 100% call, except through hindsight.

 

The bullpen had stabilized some and Pedro showed similar difficulties 3rd time through and whatnot in Game 5 of the Oakland series. It was not a great example of learned behavior on Grady's part. After that experience, having Pedro deliver a 3 run lead with 6 outs to go should have been plenty.