WAR is the dumbest stat known to mankind (Trout vs. Betts)

[Kimmi]

The 2017 Diamondbacks averaged 5.01 runs a game in the 93 games before J.D. Martinez was acquired and 5.01 runs a game in the 69 games after Martinez was acquired.

 

Arizona posted a 54-39 (.581) record before Martinez came on board and a 39-30 (.565) record afterward.

 

Thank you for this Harmony.

 

While this is still not enough to conclude anything, it strengthens my belief that the Sox offense would have improved significantly even without JD, and that JD is not some magical line up protecting presence. Not that my belief needed any strengthening.

[Slasher9]

A perfect case of "correlation does not imply causation".

 

 

in your opinion. like i said in my post...there is no way to prove it one way or the other. but we shouldnt type it as if it were factual.

[Nick]

Getting Chris Sale pushed everyone else in the starting rotation one rung down. FACT

 

Getting JD Martinez pushed everyone else in the lineup on rung down. FACT (we can argue about Betts/JD, former#2 is now #3, etc)

 

And who the f**k doesn't enjoy watching JD Martinez play every day?

[notin]

Getting Chris Sale pushed everyone else in the starting rotation one rung down. FACT

 

Getting JD Martinez pushed everyone else in the lineup on rung down. FACT (we can argue about Betts/JD, former#2 is now #3, etc)

 

And who the f**k doesn't enjoy watching JD Martinez play every day?

 

 

Most of the pitchers in the AL East...

[Kimmi]

in your opinion. like i said in my post...there is no way to prove it one way or the other. but we shouldnt type it as if it were factual.

 

Of course it's my opinion, as is 95% of what's posted here.

 

I'm not going to preface every statement with "IMO".

 

That said, I am 100% convinced of my opinion.

 

Just as I'm sure you are 100% convinced of yours.

[Kimmi]

Getting Chris Sale pushed everyone else in the starting rotation one rung down. FACT

 

Getting JD Martinez pushed everyone else in the lineup on rung down. FACT (we can argue about Betts/JD, former#2 is now #3, etc)

 

And who the f**k doesn't enjoy watching JD Martinez play every day?

 

I don't think anyone is arguing that JD has made the line up better by lengthening it.

 

I'm arguing against the idea of protection.

[User Name]

The super-nerds are ruining baseball!!!11!!!/Werth

[cp176]

JD Martinez's overall effect on the Red Sox offense is obvious to me. Putting him in either the third or fourth spot has definitely made our lineup much much stronger. As to what his presence in the lineup has meant with respect to the intangilbles, I am listening to and believing his teammates. They say that he has definitely helped them all be better hitters. That is good enough for me. Assuming that our current lineup minus JD would have performed as well this year without him, seems like it would have been just a little to risky a chance to take.

[Slasher9]

good post CP. and since baseball is such a mental game...especially hitting a baseball...even if the players in the lineup perceive an advantage with JDM in the lineup with them...its an advantage.

[notin]

good post CP. and since baseball is such a mental game...especially hitting a baseball...even if the players in the lineup perceive an advantage with JDM in the lineup with them...its an advantage.

 

Confidence is one thing, and also the Sox have plenty of young hitters who had the ability to get better.

 

Martinez has definitely improved this team by being an offensive force. Does hit bat mean the hitter in front sees better pitches? I am not as certain of that. If that is someone’s contention, one of the most improved hitters on the team is Bogaerts, who has been hitting behind Martinez.

 

What Martinez has done is what I’ve heard some say couldn’t be done - he’s replaced David Ortiz in the lineup. That alone is an impressive enough feat without trying to justify his impact with all sorts of unprovable statements...

[cp176]

good post CP. and since baseball is such a mental game...especially hitting a baseball...even if the players in the lineup perceive an advantage with JDM in the lineup with them...its an advantage.

 

I think you are right. I can't speak for anyone else but when (if) I am working and I feel comfortable , relaxed, and happy I tend to do a better job at whatever it is I am doing. Most of my athletic endeavors lately have to do with golf and if I am in a team competition and I have a good solid partner, my game is better. There is less stress as well as less pressure on me to perform. It is apparent to me anyway that this is the way many of our guys feel with JD in the middle of that lineup. We are damn lucky to have him!

[cp176]

Confidence is one thing, and also the Sox have plenty of young hitters who had the ability to get better.

 

Martinez has definitely improved this team by being an offensive force. Does hit bat mean the hitter in front sees better pitches? I am not as certain of that. If that is someone’s contention, one of the most improved hitters on the team is Bogaerts, who has been hitting behind Martinez.

 

What Martinez has done is what I’ve heard some say couldn’t be done - he’s replaced David Ortiz in the lineup. That alone is an impressive enough feat without trying to justify his impact with all sorts of unprovable statements...

 

 

The fact that not everything can or even needs to be proven is ok with me.

[notin]

The fact that not everything can or even needs to be proven is ok with me.

 

Just because you don't require proof doesn't make something a fact, either...

[kenmeister]

Article in the Globe about exactly what we are talking about: https://www.boston.com/sports/sports-q/2018/08/14/al-mvp-mookie-betts-or-j-d-martinez

[kenmeister]

I'm happy to report that today, Mookie Betts stands at 8.1 WAR and Mike Trout at 7.8.

 

I just noticed that ESPN has Mookie at 8.0 WAR today. How did it go down when the Sox didn't even play last night?

[mvp 78]

Not sure why people are ignoring Jose Ramirez's season.

[Slasher9]

Not sure why people are ignoring Jose Ramirez's season.

 

East Coast Bias! Sad!

[mvp 78]

East Coast Bias! Sad!

 

I like to pretend that Ohio doesn't exist either but ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[greenwell]

I just noticed that ESPN has Mookie at 8.0 WAR today. How did it go down when the Sox didn't even play last night?

 

That's weird. My best guess is that WAR factors in the average/typical performance of all players (hence the 'above replacement' part).

[S5Dewey]

I just noticed that ESPN has Mookie at 8.0 WAR today. How did it go down when the Sox didn't even play last night?

 

Like most of WAR, the answer to your question is that it's far too complicated for most of us mortals to understand.

[Slasher9]

I like to pretend that Ohio doesn't exist either but ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

verboten!

[User Name]

Like most of WAR, the answer to your question is that it's far too complicated for most of us mortals to understand.

 

What's funny is that you have all of this attitude and snark, but whine like a teenager that got a zit before prom if someone else dare take a tone. Nice.

[notin]

Not sure why people are ignoring Jose Ramirez's season.

 

I mentioned him a couple times in one of these threads.

 

I think he'd be running away with this award in just about any other season..

[cp176]

Just because you don't require proof doesn't make something a fact, either...

 

Of course it doesn't make it a fact. Once again - I don't need everything proven before I believe it.

[notin]

Of course it doesn't make it a fact. Once again - I don't need everything proven before I believe it.

 

Nobody does. But a belief backed by strong logic or rationale is always stronger. And it's always wise to listen to alternative viewpoints...

[S5Dewey]

What's funny is that you have all of this attitude and snark, but whine like a teenager that got a zit before prom if someone else dare take a tone. Nice.

 

Pot, meet kettle.

[cp176]

Nobody does. But a belief backed by strong logic or rationale is always stronger. And it's always wise to listen to alternative viewpoints...

 

No one is arguing with you here notin. if you are suggesting that I don't listen to alternative views, which you are, you are wrong - I do. I do not need everything proven to me with your concept of strong logic or rationale in order to believe it. There are always different ways of looking at things regardless of how right you think your personal opinions might be.

[Jack Flap]

Not sure why people are ignoring Jose Ramirez's season.

 

He is an okay baseball player, I guess.

[Kimmi]

Confidence is one thing, and also the Sox have plenty of young hitters who had the ability to get better.

 

Martinez has definitely improved this team by being an offensive force. Does hit bat mean the hitter in front sees better pitches? I am not as certain of that. If that is someone’s contention, one of the most improved hitters on the team is Bogaerts, who has been hitting behind Martinez.

 

What Martinez has done is what I’ve heard some say couldn’t be done - he’s replaced David Ortiz in the lineup. That alone is an impressive enough feat without trying to justify his impact with all sorts of unprovable statements...

 

In the case of batter 'protection', there is strong statistical evidence that batters do not hit any better when they have a strong hitter behind them supposedly protecting them. There is evidence that pitchers may pitch differently to the 'protected' batters, but the batters do not reap any benefits from that.

 

People can talk about line up protection all day, but the numbers just don't bear that out.

[Kimmi]

Not sure why people are ignoring Jose Ramirez's season.

 

He has been mentioned, and he is definitely worthy of the award.

 

My argument was just in terms of who is more deserving between Mookie and JD.