The Alex Cora Managerial Decision Thread

[mvp 78]

sorry. random Matrix Reloaded reference.

 

Didn’t see that one or at least purged it from my memory.

[notin]

sorry. random Matrix Reloaded reference.

 

I had no idea Matrix Reloaded discussed clutch hitting and pornography...

[Bellhorn04]

Actually, it's not. The dictionary definition is easy; saying x or y is this or that isn't. What you perceive as porn or art or whatever may not match what I think those are.

 

I have little use for modern art; I just don't get it. I would not even define it as art. But others don't see it that way. And that's fine.

 

OK, but if we're talking about something that's subjective, like art, you can't 'know it when you see it', either, so the statement still doesn't make sense.

[illinoisredsox]

OK, but if we're talking about something that's subjective, like art, you can't 'know it when you see it', either, so the statement still doesn't make sense.

 

It was actually a Free speech related case ini 1964.

 

Stewart never actually used "pornography" or "obscenity" in his concurrence, at least in that part of it.

 

The whole quote was:

 

"I shall not today attempt further to define the kinds of material I understand to be embraced within that shorthand description, and perhaps I could never succeed in intelligibly doing so. But I know it when I see it, and the motion picture involved in this case is not that."

 

To avoid taking this into the politics realm, here's a little more about it:

 

https://corporate.findlaw.com/litigation-disputes/movie-day-at-the-supreme-court-or-i-know-it-when-i-see-it-a.html

 

Beyond that, your opinion is yours and this isn't the forum to discuss it one way or the other. The applicability to baseball is you don't need stats to know that Trout or Betts is a great player, you know it when you see it, (but the stats certainly back up the "see it".

[Bellhorn04]

It was actually a Free speech related case ini 1964.

 

Stewart never actually used "pornography" or "obscenity" in his concurrence, at least in that part of it.

 

The whole quote was:

 

"I shall not today attempt further to define the kinds of material I understand to be embraced within that shorthand description, and perhaps I could never succeed in intelligibly doing so. But I know it when I see it, and the motion picture involved in this case is not that."

 

Thanks. Well, it figures that it's not really used properly LOL

[StephenCurry30]

the matrix reloaded is a bad movie

[oldtimer]

For some time now I have been puzzled about how the Red Sox lineup is being handled by Cora.

 

I would hope when our solid players have good nights that we would be rewarded with a Red Sox win. Sure that isn't going to happen if our starting and/or pitching is weak but I am hopeful that Cora will make lineup moves when they seem to be needed and an alternative is available.

 

One of these might be to recognize that Hanley is sliding into a slump and yet he has been kept in the key #3 slot in the batting order. It can be a rally killer to have a slumping hitter following our table setters. Either move him back in the order and slide others forward or rest him. Moreland seems to be a very adequate replacement if Hanley needs rest.

 

JBJ's hitting has become pathetic. Two strikeouts where he fans on fastballs down the middle. Finally tonight Cora had seen enough and he put Holt in. I think JBJ 's performance may have finally made Cora decide that enough is enough.

 

We can't do much about the catchers as they are the best we have and perhaps they can break out of their slumps and contirube. Vaz did tonight.

 

Cora is dealing with the real world of the team and knows who is got physical problems and cannot play, but lately it seems like more of his choice from among playable personnel. Lets apply our best to the job.

[Maxbialystock]

For some time now I have been puzzled about how the Red Sox lineup is being handled by Cora.

 

I would hope when our solid players have good nights that we would be rewarded with a Red Sox win. Sure that isn't going to happen if our starting and/or pitching is weak but I am hopeful that Cora will make lineup moves when they seem to be needed and an alternative is available.

 

One of these might be to recognize that Hanley is sliding into a slump and yet he has been kept in the key #3 slot in the batting order. It can be a rally killer to have a slumping hitter following our table setters. Either move him back in the order and slide others forward or rest him. Moreland seems to be a very adequate replacement if Hanley needs rest.

 

JBJ's hitting has become pathetic. Two strikeouts where he fans on fastballs down the middle. Finally tonight Cora had seen enough and he put Holt in. I think JBJ 's performance may have finally made Cora decide that enough is enough.

 

We can't do much about the catchers as they are the best we have and perhaps they can break out of their slumps and contirube. Vaz did tonight.

 

Cora is dealing with the real world of the team and knows who is got physical problems and cannot play, but lately it seems like more of his choice from among playable personnel. Lets apply our best to the job.

 

Meh. The problem is the rotation which is now healthy but lousy: 1 quality start in the last 5 games.

 

You can argue that the manager should fix/manage what is fixable/manageable, but I would remind you that the Sox lineup is currently the second best in MLB whereas last year it was ranked 10th.

 

I might add that there was outrage from some on talksox when Cora had the temerity to bench the greatest centerfielder of his generation (or whatever accolade one deems sufficient) for Moreland even though his OPS is double that of JBJ. Every time he has done that, there is a steady stream of invective directed toward Beni's inadequacies in CF and JD's in left field. From those comments I get the impression that the best way to fix these Sox is not better hitting and/or pitching but a better defensive outfield. JBJ and JBJ alone can fix our pitching problem--an exaggeration, but not by much.

 

Then there's Swihart and the belief by some that he is the solution to our weak hitting by Leon and Vazquez.

 

You are right about Moreland, of course. And Hanley's OPS in May is .601 to April's .903.

[Slasher9]

Once again max you are trying to start an argument that just isn’t valid. I complained about our rookie manager when JBj was benched for Blake Swihart. Not MM. please don’t come at me with false f***ing narrative.

 

Thanks

[Bellhorn04]

Meh. The problem is the rotation which is now healthy but lousy: 1 quality start in the last 5 games.

 

Sale's last start wasn't a bad one. 2 runs in 5 innings. But 102 pitches, so Cora wisely elected to get him out of there.

[Maxbialystock]

I don't need convincing. it was more about noting the over reaction some posters had to Cora and his managing skills.

he is a rookie manager that will make rookie mistakes. and he seems smart enough to learn from them. although his baserunners still make more mistakes than my 12U players.....

 

Could not agree more. What an idiotic baserunner Mookie is, the way he got doubled off 2B last night. I'm sure if he had the benefit of your coaching, he would straighten up and fly right. If only he had had you when he was at the 12U level. Same goes double for Beni, of course. Well coached base runners simply do not make mistakes--defined roughly as anything we on talksox don't approve of--not even at the MLB level where the arms are better and more accurate and things happen fast.

[Slasher9]

Could not agree more. What an idiotic baserunner Mookie is, the way he got doubled off 2B last night. I'm sure if he had the benefit of your coaching, he would straighten up and fly right. If only he had had you when he was at the 12U level. Same goes double for Beni, of course. Well coached base runners simply do not make mistakes--defined roughly as anything we on talksox don't approve of--not even at the MLB level where the arms are better and more accurate and things happen fast.

 

Lol. Ok max. Mistakes happen. The same mistake happening over and over and over again are a problem. Your man Cora is already on record saying it’s a problem that “needs to be addressed”. Seems rookie Cora agrees with me. But hey, if you prefer not to coach them up and let them continue to make mental blunders on the basepaths - good on you!

[Maxbialystock]

Once again max you are trying to start an argument that just isn’t valid. I complained about our rookie manager when JBj was benched for Blake Swihart. Not MM. please don’t come at me with false f***ing narrative.

 

Thanks

 

I wasn't think of you on that part. We disagreed about Swihart because I didn't mind anyone replacing Vazquez in the lineup, even Swihart as the DH. I think naticktoNc and station13 are the two advocates for Swihart to be our regular starting catcher.

[Maxbialystock]

Lol. Ok max. Mistakes happen. The same mistake happening over and over and over again are a problem. Your man Cora is already on record saying it’s a problem that “needs to be addressed”. Seems rookie Cora agrees with me. But hey, if you prefer not to coach them up and let them continue to make mental blunders on the basepaths - good on you!

 

I can find no such statement from Cora, and I absolutely don't believe that "coaching them up" is the answer at this level when they all have multiple years of expert, professional coaching under their belts. I will cite three examples of what I am getting at.

 

The first is Hanley Ramirez slowing up going from first to second base on a liner to RF with two men out--inexcusable, but also the definition of what Hanley sometimes does and no amount of "coaching" will fix that. He's actually better this year than last, but is still Hanley at heart.

 

The second is Beni, the young guy and surely an ideal candidate for additional coaching. The problem is that he actually is pretty quick on the basepaths, and a manager should want to capitalize on that speed. He is second on the team in stolen bases with 7 and has not been caught stealing. He is tied for 2d in runs scored with JD, and JD has 13 dingers to Beni's 3. He also advances on the basepaths--sometimes taking risks--and gets zero credit for it, but always gets blamed for being an idiot when he makes an out. Rounding 3d and getting picked off the other night was a real mistake, but also an alert play by the third baseman.

 

The third example is Mookie last night. He is in fact a terrific baserunner. Last night he led off with a double and got doubled off 2b by a soft liner Schoop caught going into CF and quickly threw to Machado covering 2B. The replay shows Mookie taking a lead, but not a big one, and actually heading back toward 2B before Schoop had the ball in his glove. Schoop just made a great play. And that's my point. Good baserunning can never, ever be risk free and this is exacerbated sometimes by the other team's great defensive play.

 

Given the above three examples, my belief is that "addressing that," if Cora said it, is not as simple as you seem to want to make it. Right now, for example, the Sox rank 4th in MLB in stolen bases and 8th in SB% (79.49%).

[Maxbialystock]

Sale's last start wasn't a bad one. 2 runs in 5 innings. But 102 pitches, so Cora wisely elected to get him out of there.

 

Agree Cora was right to replace him--he had thrown 102 pitches to get thru the 5th. But it's still not a quality start, and the bullpen had to go 4 innings and gave up 2 more runs. Fortunately, the lineup scored 6 and we won 6-4.

[Bellhorn04]

Agree Cora was right to replace him--he had thrown 102 pitches to get thru the 5th. But it's still not a quality start, and the bullpen had to go 4 innings and gave up 2 more runs. Fortunately, the lineup scored 6 and we won 6-4.

 

'Quality start' is just a made-up stat, of course.

[S5Dewey]

I can find no such statement from Cora,

 

Did you even look? This is the first one listed when I typed in "Alex cora bad baserunning"

 

https://nesn.com/2018/05/alex-cora-details-how-hes-trying-to-fix-red-soxs-irresponsible-baserunning/

[oldtimer]

Meh. The problem is the rotation which is now healthy but lousy: 1 quality start in the last 5 games.

 

You can argue that the manager should fix/manage what is fixable/manageable, but I would remind you that the Sox lineup is currently the second best in MLB whereas last year it was ranked 10th.

 

I might add that there was outrage from some on talksox when Cora had the temerity to bench the greatest centerfielder of his generation (or whatever accolade one deems sufficient) for Moreland even though his OPS is double that of JBJ. Every time he has done that, there is a steady stream of invective directed toward Beni's inadequacies in CF and JD's in left field. From those comments I get the impression that the best way to fix these Sox is not better hitting and/or pitching but a better defensive outfield. JBJ and JBJ alone can fix our pitching problem--an exaggeration, but not by much.

 

Then there's Swihart and the belief by some that he is the solution to our weak hitting by Leon and Vazquez.

 

You are right about Moreland, of course. And Hanley's OPS in May is .601 to April's .903.

 

I agree that much of the frustration of losing comes from a rotation and BP that has some significant flaws. Cora is trying to deal with that but it is tough to make a silk purse out of a sows ear.

 

I am definitely not berating Cora for the lineup issues but would like him to take a more activist approach and recognize when players are struggling and replace them early in their struggles, if a good alternatives exist. One could argue that Hanley's decline has existed for long enough to warrant a move in the lineup or a rest period. Last night's 0-5 when he is sitting behind table setters who were on base 5 for the 10 times they were up really hurt the club. JBJ's case is so obvious that Cora pinch hit for him during the game, which was a strong message.

 

I am looking for Cora to recognize situations as they are arising and having the convictions and toughness to make the moves to improve the team. Situations are always changing on a ball club and the manager is in the best position to understand and deal with them. Perhaps he has been and I just don't know the full story.

[Maxbialystock]

I agree that much of the frustration of losing comes from a rotation and BP that has some significant flaws. Cora is trying to deal with that but it is tough to make a silk purse out of a sows ear.

 

I am definitely not berating Cora for the lineup issues but would like him to take a more activist approach and recognize when players are struggling and replace them early in their struggles, if a good alternatives exist. One could argue that Hanley's decline has existed for long enough to warrant a move in the lineup or a rest period. Last night's 0-5 when he is sitting behind table setters who were on base 5 for the 10 times they were up really hurt the club. JBJ's case is so obvious that Cora pinch hit for him during the game, which was a strong message.

 

I am looking for Cora to recognize situations as they are arising and having the convictions and toughness to make the moves to improve the team. Situations are always changing on a ball club and the manager is in the best position to understand and deal with them. Perhaps he has been and I just don't know the full story.

 

Agree. I did say playing Moreland is the right move and that Hanley is cold right now. Batting 3d in April, he looked like a new man, kind of like Hanley in 2016 with Ortiz in the lineup. Now he looks like 2017 or worse and is surrounded by good hitters.

 

You know me. I always defend the manager. I was slower than everybody else in denouncing Valentine.

[Maxbialystock]

'Quality start' is just a made-up stat, of course.

 

Of course it is, but I think it makes sense: 6 innings, 3 runs. I sure don't think it's high standard.

[oldtimer]

Of course it is, but I think it makes sense: 6 innings, 3 runs. I sure don't think it's high standard.

 

It appears to be the new norm for a starter to last only 5 or 6 inches and the stats bear that out. That's what makes Sale and Price unusual as both went 9 recently. I can't think as highly of a pitcher who throws 100 pitches in 5 or 6 innings as one who can last through the 7th or later.

[oldtimer]

Agree. I did say playing Moreland is the right move and that Hanley is cold right now. Batting 3d in April, he looked like a new man, kind of like Hanley in 2016 with Ortiz in the lineup. Now he looks like 2017 or worse and is surrounded by good hitters.

 

You know me. I always defend the manager. I was slower than everybody else in denouncing Valentine.

 

Failure to make a move when there is a better alternative is a negative trait of a manager. Of course there may be circumstances that a fan is not privy to so I withhold criticism until it becomes a pattern. I still wonder about both Hanley and JBJ in the lineup when it appears to the outsider that there are better alternatives. Hate to lose games that might otherwise be winnable.

[Kimmi]

Failure to make a move when there is a better alternative is a negative trait of a manager. Of course there may be circumstances that a fan is not privy to so I withhold criticism until it becomes a pattern. I still wonder about both Hanley and JBJ in the lineup when it appears to the outsider that there are better alternatives. Hate to lose games that might otherwise be winnable.

 

I just posted something about playing Moreland over Hanley in another thread. That said, I would not go so far as to say that failure to do so is a negative trait of a manager. As you noted, there is far more that weighs into the decision than what we realize. Also, a manager has to have patience with his players. Patience.

[notin]

I just posted something about playing Moreland over Hanley in another thread. That said, I would not go so far as to say that failure to do so is a negative trait of a manager. As you noted, there is far more that weighs into the decision than what we realize. Also, a manager has to have patience with his players. Patience.

 

Patience is a must.

 

But on the other hand, Bradley is 5 for his last 56. Give me 56 at-bats against MLB pitching and I can come within 5 hits of that total. Even the struggling Vazquez has over twice as many hits in his last 56 at bats...

[notin]

Of course it is, but I think it makes sense: 6 innings, 3 runs. I sure don't think it's high standard.

 

There was a time when it was 7IP, 3 or fewer ER, I believe...

[mvp 78]

There was a time when it was 7IP, 3 or fewer ER, I believe...

 

I don't think so. Couldn't find evidence of that.

 

From wikipedia:

 

Criticisms

High ERA

An early criticism of the statistic, made by Moss Klein, writing in The Sporting News, is that a pitcher could conceivably meet the minimum requirements for a quality start and record a 4.50 ERA, seen as undesirable at the time. Bill James addressed this in his 1987 Baseball Abstract, saying the hypothetical example (a pitcher going exactly 6 innings and allowing exactly 3 runs) was extremely rare amongst starts recorded as quality starts, and that he doubted any pitchers had an ERA over 3.20 in their quality starts. This was later confirmed through computer analysis of all quality starts recorded from 1984 to 1991, which found that the average ERA in quality starts during that time period was 1.91.[4]

 

Complete games

Another criticism against the statistic is that it is not beneficial for pitchers who pitch many innings per start. If a pitcher allows three earned runs in six innings, he gets a quality start with an ERA of 4.50 for that game. But if a pitcher pitches for nine innings and allows four earned runs, he would have a 4.00 ERA, but would not get a quality start. Former pitcher Carl Erskine said "in my day, a quality start was a complete game ... you gave everybody a day's rest."[5]

[Bellhorn04]

Patience is a must.

 

But on the other hand, Bradley is 5 for his last 56. Give me 56 at-bats against MLB pitching and I can come within 5 hits of that total. Even the struggling Vazquez has over twice as many hits in his last 56 at bats...

 

Didi Gregorius is 1 for his last 42 or something like that.

[Bellhorn04]

I don't think so. Couldn't find evidence of that.

 

From wikipedia:

 

Criticisms

High ERA

An early criticism of the statistic, made by Moss Klein, writing in The Sporting News, is that a pitcher could conceivably meet the minimum requirements for a quality start and record a 4.50 ERA, seen as undesirable at the time. Bill James addressed this in his 1987 Baseball Abstract, saying the hypothetical example (a pitcher going exactly 6 innings and allowing exactly 3 runs) was extremely rare amongst starts recorded as quality starts, and that he doubted any pitchers had an ERA over 3.20 in their quality starts. This was later confirmed through computer analysis of all quality starts recorded from 1984 to 1991, which found that the average ERA in quality starts during that time period was 1.91.[4]

 

Complete games

Another criticism against the statistic is that it is not beneficial for pitchers who pitch many innings per start. If a pitcher allows three earned runs in six innings, he gets a quality start with an ERA of 4.50 for that game. But if a pitcher pitches for nine innings and allows four earned runs, he would have a 4.00 ERA, but would not get a quality start. Former pitcher Carl Erskine said "in my day, a quality start was a complete game ... you gave everybody a day's rest."[5]

 

Here's another one from me:

 

You can pitch 5.2 shutout innings and not get a QS.

 

But if you were able to get one more out, even if you gave up 2 or 3 runs in the process, you'd get a QS.

 

As with many stats there's an arbitrary nature to it...

[mvp 78]

Here's another one from me:

 

You can pitch 5.2 shutout innings and not get a QS.

 

But if you were able to get one more out, even if you gave up 2 or 3 runs in the process, you'd get a QS.

 

As with many stats there's an arbitrary nature to it...

 

I'm really not a fan of QS. It's fine for what it is, but I agree with a lot of the criticisms of it.

[jacksonianmarch]

Didi Gregorius is 1 for his last 42 or something like that.

 

And he was the MVP of April. It's a marathon, not a sprint