Fire alex cora

[notin]

It's not just about spending, but who you spend it on. Bloom spent on starting pitching. But he spent it on the wrong guys.

 

Who was the last “right guy” the Sox spent on as a starting pitcher?

Edited September 16, 2023 by notin

[notin]

And Sox owners weren't expecting Bloom to waste the kind of money in 2023 that he did.

 

Story 23.3 fWAR -0.2

Yoshida 18 0.6

Kike 9 -1.6

Kluber 10 -0.8

 

Total cost 61.3 mill

Total fWAR MINUS 2

 

Really the only good news there is half those guys are off the books next month.

 

Story and Yoshida still have time to justify their deals. All a Sale can do is at best end on a high note…

[sk7326]

I'm talking Sale, Nate and ERod under Bloom. It wasn't just 2019, the big named pitchers struggled or got hurt.

 

ERod started 34 games in 2019 and then missed all of 2020.

Sale started 25 in 2019 and never came close, afterwards.

Nate sucked in 2019, but also missed a lot of time from 2020-2022, and wasn't great every year.

 

Bloom didn't even have Price and had no budget to replace him, until 2021's $10M/1 for Richards.

 

The one season Bloom got anything from the carry over SP'ers was 2021, and look what happened that fall.

32 GS Nate 3.75 ERA

31 GS ERod 4.74 ERA was not great but it sure beats Richards and Kluber.

(Getting 30 starts and 155 IP from newly acquired Pivetta helped, too.)

 

When you look at what Rodriguez signed for, and the underlying numbers before he left - it was pretty clearly a mistake to not sign him. Letting Eovaldi go was a pretty obvious mistake too - if you're going to sign an injury risk - sign one who actually can pitch here.

 

It is particularly notable with Bloom's near total negligence of pitching - both in free agency and in the amateur acqusition fronts.

[moonslav59]

Who was the last “right guy” the Sox spent on as a starting pitcher?

 

I think his point was "none."

 

I'd argue Wacha and Hill were good values, and Paxton came close to earning $10M/2.

 

The Pivetta trade was fine.

 

RP'er were better: Strahm, Jansen, Martin and some scrubs worked out.

[moonslav59]

When you look at what Rodriguez signed for, and the underlying numbers before he left - it was pretty clearly a mistake to not sign him. Letting Eovaldi go was a pretty obvious mistake too - if you're going to sign an injury risk - sign one who actually can pitch here.

 

It is particularly notable with Bloom's near total negligence of pitching - both in free agency and in the amateur acqusition fronts.

 

I'm not disagreeing. My point was about the excuse made for 2019 was the same if not worse for 2020 and beyond.

 

BTW, I'm not sure extending ERod would be viewed as a clear plus, especially if we gave the opt out, too.

[sk7326]

I'm not disagreeing. My point was about the excuse made for 2019 was the same if not worse for 2020 and beyond.

 

BTW, I'm not sure extending ERod would be viewed as a clear plus, especially if we gave the opt out, too.

 

Certainly there would be cranky fans - but you can't let them dictate your moves. The opt out for a goliath like Boston should have been a nothingburger.

[moonslav59]

Certainly there would be cranky fans - but you can't let them dictate your moves. The opt out for a goliath like Boston should have been a nothingburger.

 

Are you saying we could have/should have offered so much more that he'd have accepted without the opt out?

 

How much of a field day would the Sox fans and media and posters, here have had when ERod went home on leave, last year?

 

He sure looks like a keeper, now.

 

Again, I was talking about the decline of the vets Bloom took over as being the same or worse than the decline under DD in 2019.

 

Who we kept, didn't keep or added is a separate issue.

 

[sk7326]

Are you saying we could have/should have offered so much more that he'd have accepted without the opt out?

 

How much of a field day would the Sox fans and media and posters, here have had when ERod went home on leave, last year?

 

He sure looks like a keeper, now.

 

Again, I was talking about the decline of the vets Bloom took over as being the same or worse than the decline under DD in 2019.

 

Who we kept, didn't keep or added is a separate issue.

 

 

The thing with bloom is that he basically signed one free agent in the deep end of the pool - Story ... who has been too hurt to say a whole lot about one way or the other, though it has not been promising. The other guys have largely been okay - but they have all be fliers on the margin.

 

My view on Bloom ultimately is the same as Dombrowski. Both did exactly what they were hired to do, and management fired them when the optics got marginally challenging. Both cases were equally tawdry.

[notin]

When you look at what Rodriguez signed for, and the underlying numbers before he left - it was pretty clearly a mistake to not sign him. Letting Eovaldi go was a pretty obvious mistake too - if you're going to sign an injury risk - sign one who actually can pitch here.

 

It is particularly notable with Bloom's near total negligence of pitching - both in free agency and in the amateur acqusition fronts.

 

 

ERod was a good pitcher (albeit lousy at converting 1b), but he signed with Detroit on November 16. He didn’t even see what his market was. Signing that early means just leaping at the first offer…

[notin]

I think his point was "none."

 

I'd argue Wacha and Hill were good values, and Paxton came close to earning $10M/2.

 

The Pivetta trade was fine.

 

RP'er were better: Strahm, Jansen, Martin and some scrubs worked out.

 

None? But the Sox have been spending on starting pitching for decades.

[moonslav59]

None? But the Sox have been spending on starting pitching for decades.

 

He said, Bloom spent on starting pitching. But he spent it on the wrong guys.

 

He never said there were "right guys" or we didn't spend, and I think we was talking about under Bloom.

[notin]

He said, Bloom spent on starting pitching. But he spent it on the wrong guys.

 

He never said there were "right guys" or we didn't spend, and I think we was talking about under Bloom.

 

I didn’t ask about Bloom. I simply asked when was the last time the Red Sox spent money on the right free agent starting pitcher. As in the last time in Red Sox history the team did so.

[moonslav59]

I didn’t ask about Bloom. I simply asked when was the last time the Red Sox spent money on the right free agent starting pitcher. As in the last time in Red Sox history the team did so.

 

Okay. It wasn't really a question you asked, and I'm not sure his comment was directed to your statement, but I think it was a fair response to you saying we have been spending on pitching.

 

You said:

And the Sox were passing Price until this year. In fact, the Sale/Price/Eovaldi combo was costing the Sox $58mill in AAV through the end of the 2022 season.

 

And people say we didn’t spend on pitching…

 

He said, later in the discussion, with other comments being made in between:

It's not just about spending, but who you spend it on. Bloom spent on starting pitching. But he spent it on the wrong guys.

 

I'm not getting why you are asking who "the right guy" is or was. He's not saying there was one or wasn't one.

 

I think Nate was a pretty good extension, despite missing time and not being sharp all 4 years.

 

To me, Nate and Porcello were good signings. Lackey worked okay.

 

Shorter one? Wacha & Hill.

[5GoldGlovesOF,75]

 

I think Nate was a pretty good extension, despite missing time and not being sharp all 4 years.

 

To me, Nate and Porcello were good signings. Lackey worked okay.

 

Shorter one? Wacha & Hill.

 

This is a fair assessment. No matter what a fan wants to complain about re. Eovaldi -- IL stints or his (very equitable market-rate) AAV of $17M in his Boston years -- he was still the #1 overall on some bad teams and one contender. Porcello, after winning his Cy Young, did, in fact lead the greatest team in Red Sox history in wins and innings pitched. Wacha, in his one season in Boston, led the staff in WAR for $7M...

 

Lackey was a bust, until he helped win in one October. His case was similar to Price's, in that it didn't end well, because everyone knew Lackey would never agree to pitch a final season in Boston for the minimum wage injury stipulation on the contract that he signed.

 

Since this is a Cora thread, if AC has any input this winter, bet he has no problem trading some shortstop prospects in package deals for under-30 arms.

Edited September 17, 2023 by 5GoldGloves:OF,75

[notin]

This is a fair assessment. No matter what a fan wants to complain about re. Eovaldi -- IL stints or his (very equitable market-rate) AAV of $17M in his Boston years -- he was still the #1 overall on some bad teams and one contender. Porcello, after winning his Cy Young, did, in fact lead the greatest team in Red Sox history in wins and innings pitched. Wacha, in his one season in Boston, led the staff in WAR for $7M...

 

Lackey was a bust, until he helped win in one October. His case was similar to Price's, in that it didn't end well, because everyone knew Lackey would never agree to pitch a final season in Boston for the minimum wage injury stipulation on the contract that he signed.

 

Since this is a Cora thread, if AC has any input this winter, bet he has no problem trading some shortstop prospects in package deals for under-30 arms.

 

Some shortstop prospects? I think there’s really only one who has the ability to bring back controllable pitching. Unless you don’t care about the quality of the pitching…

[moonslav59]

Lackey was a bust, until he helped win in one October. His case was similar to Price's, in that it didn't end well, because everyone knew Lackey would never agree to pitch a final season in Boston for the minimum wage injury stipulation on the contract that he signed.

 

Lackey also brought us something, in trade, and wasn't a dump like the Price part of the Betts trade.

 

He also wasn't all that bad year one and was having a good season when we traded him.

1.5 good

1 okay

1 really bad

1 missed by injury

[moonslav59]

Some shortstop prospects? I think there’s really only one who has the ability to bring back controllable pitching. Unless you don’t care about the quality of the pitching…

 

Romero's stock is so low, now it would make no sense trading him, even as part of a package.

Cespedes may end up the best SS in our current system, but teams no longer pay high for far away gems.

Zanetello- the same. (He is likely not going to be a SS in MLB.)

 

Yes, Mayer is the only one that would bring back top pitcher, and even then, we'd likely have to add some other good prospects, too, or someone like Duran or Rafaela.

 

It seems this highly flawed team we follow is loaded with untouchables, to some.

 

I'll say it again: you have to give to get.

 

Nobody wants 6 mid ranged prospects for a potential ace.

 

[Randy Red Sox]

Romero's stock is so low, now it would make no sense trading him, even as part of a package.

Cespedes may end up the best SS in our current system, but teams no longer pay high for far away gems.

Zanetello- the same. (He is likely not going to be a SS in MLB.)

 

Yes, Mayer is the only one that would bring back top pitcher, and even then, we'd likely have to add some other good prospects, too, or someone like Duran or Rafaela.

 

It seems this highly flawed team we follow is loaded with untouchables, to some.

 

I'll say it again: you have to give to get.

 

Nobody wants 6 mid ranged prospects for a potential ace.

 

 

I'd give up Duran first or if needed Rafaela for one of the Marlins young pitchers.

[5GoldGlovesOF,75]

Some shortstop prospects? I think there’s really only one who has the ability to bring back controllable pitching. Unless you don’t care about the quality of the pitching…

 

Why start now? Oh, that's right -- new boss!

[moonslav59]

I'd give up Duran first or if needed Rafaela for one of the Marlins young pitchers.

 

Here are some relevant BTV values:

71.3 Luzardo 3 yrs of control

50.2 Perez 6 yrs

35.9 Garrett 5

23.9 Cabrera 5

8.6 Rogers 3

 

Sox

59.2 Mayer

51.4 Casas

41.3 Anthony

30.6 Houck

28.9 Bleis

20.0 Crawford

19.0 Yorke

17.9 Rafaela

12.6 Yoshida (I doubt the Marlins value him this highly or at all.)

10.3 Duran

10.0 Verdugo 1

6.4 Schreiber

6.3 Winckowski

5.0 Drohan

4.2 Peralez

4.2 Romero

3.9 Wikelman

3.3 Abreu

 

The Marlins do need OF help, but I doubt the value one year of Dugo highly. Bleis is too far away, so it would likely take a package that involved Duran and or Anthony.

 

I can't see getting Luzardo without giving up Mayer or Casas. This was accepted on BTV:

 

Mayer, Duran and Drohan for Luzardo

Anthony, Duran, Yorke and Drohan for Luzardo

 

Anthony & Duran for Perez

Duran, Rafaela, Yorke, Drohan for Perez

 

Duran & Bleis for Garrett

Rafaela, Yorke & Drohan for Garrett

 

Duran, Drohan, Perales & Romero for Cabrera

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Deja Doh]

I thought we would win 72 games and at this point with 7 games remaining the team has 76. The team is bad. The coaching is horrible.

 

There are maybe 13 players I keep and the rest deal, cut, send back to the minors. We are stuck with overpaid/overrated Devers, overpaid Sale who is terrible.

[moonslav59]

I thought we would win 72 games and at this point with 7 games remaining the team has 76. The team is bad. The coaching is horrible.

 

There are maybe 13 players I keep and the rest deal, cut, send back to the minors. We are stuck with overpaid/overrated Devers, overpaid Sale who is terrible.

 

Who are the 13?

Bello

Martin

Jansen

Crawford

Pivetta

Houck

Whitlock

Winckowski

 

Devers

Casas

Verdugo

Wong

Abreu

 

[notin]

This is a fair assessment. No matter what a fan wants to complain about re. Eovaldi -- IL stints or his (very equitable market-rate) AAV of $17M in his Boston years -- he was still the #1 overall on some bad teams and one contender. Porcello, after winning his Cy Young, did, in fact lead the greatest team in Red Sox history in wins and innings pitched. Wacha, in his one season in Boston, led the staff in WAR for $7M...

 

Lackey was a bust, until he helped win in one October. His case was similar to Price's, in that it didn't end well, because everyone knew Lackey would never agree to pitch a final season in Boston for the minimum wage injury stipulation on the contract that he signed.

 

Since this is a Cora thread, if AC has any input this winter, bet he has no problem trading some shortstop prospects in package deals for under-30 arms.

 

 

This is a blatant lie that was started by Tony Massarotti, the True Worst Sports Journalist in Boston History.

 

Lackey never threatened to not play that year, and in fact did play for the minimum for the Cardinals, who, unlike the Sox, are not a team he chose to play for…

[moonslav59]

This is a blatant lie that was started by Tony Massarotti, the True Worst Sports Journalist in Boston History.

 

Lackey never threatened to not play that year, and in fact did play for the minimum for the Cardinals, who, unlike the Sox, are not a team he chose to play for…

 

I do think his complaining about the clause was part of the reason we traded him.

 

We were so lucky to get Craig and Kelly for him!

 

Seriously though, the other trades worked out better:

 

Lester for Cespedes (flipped for Porcello)

 

Peavy for Escobar and Hembree (who was part of the Pivetta deal)

 

AMiller for ERod

 

 

[5GoldGlovesOF,75]

I do think his complaining about the clause was part of the reason we traded him.

 

We were so lucky to get Craig and Kelly for him!

 

Seriously though, the other trades worked out better:

 

Lester for Cespedes (flipped for Porcello)

 

Peavy for Escobar and Hembree (who was part of the Pivetta deal)

 

AMiller for ERod

 

 

 

A lot of Sox fans and media thought the Lackey signing was finally salvaged when he helped win the 2013 World Series, with one win (and a loss) and a 2.57 ERA.

 

If you agree for that reason alone, then surely trading Lackey for Joe Kelly was also worth it... because Kelly pitched in all five 2018 World Series games: winning one, losing none, with an ERA of 0.00.

[moonslav59]

A lot of Sox fans and media thought the Lackey signing was finally salvaged when he helped win the 2013 World Series, with one win (and a loss) and a 2.57 ERA.

 

If you agree for that reason alone, then surely trading Lackey for Joe Kelly was also worth it... because Kelly pitched in all five 2018 World Series games: winning one, losing none, with an ERA of 0.00.

 

I'm not really one who thinks like that, but it does help that a player makes a significant contribution in a ring year. IMO, the Lackey signing worked better than the Price one, and not just because of the massive money differential.

 

When I think of Kelly, I think or how close he came to being left off that playoff roster. I'm glad he did well, but overall, he was a letdown. Craig was a net negative.

 

[Old Red]

The Red Sox are 4-14 in their last 18 games when at the start of the stretch the Red Sox were still in the postseason hunt. Bloom got the boot, and Cora needs to go too. If a new Person in charge comes in from the outside they deserve to pick their own manager unlike I believe Bloom was allowed to do. Cora is still living off the coattails of 2018 to some, and 2018 is long gone. Let’s make a clean sweep of baseball ops, or as much as possible.

[moonslav59]

Feeling tge love, or should I say anti hate.

[5GoldGlovesOF,75]

The Red Sox are 4-14 in their last 18 games when at the start of the stretch the Red Sox were still in the postseason hunt. Bloom got the boot, and Cora needs to go too. If a new Person in charge comes in from the outside they deserve to pick their own manager unlike I believe Bloom was allowed to do. Cora is still living off the coattails of 2018 to some, and 2018 is long gone. Let’s make a clean sweep of baseball ops, or as much as possible.

 

If we really want legitimate change, the new guy will be allowed to hire his own "cabinet" for the front office. Otherwise, how much veering from the Bloom Era can we expect, when the entire staff -- except for one individual -- that contributed to the assemblage of three last place losers is still in place?

 

The direction just may continue, only with a different name -- the New Guy Era... If so, might as well just call the Brad Pitts Era.

[Old Red]

If we really want legitimate change, the new guy will be allowed to hire his own "cabinet" for the front office. Otherwise, how much veering from the Bloom Era can we expect, when the entire staff -- except for one individual -- that contributed to the assemblage of three last place losers is still in place?

 

The direction just may continue, only with a different name -- the New Guy Era... If so, might as well just call the Brad Pitts Era.

They’ve already named O’Halloran as exec VP of player ops, and Kennedy said he expects Cora to be back as manager, so it doesn’t some like the new person, or persons in charge will be totally in charge.