Fire alex cora

[cp176]

I would say Dombrowski UTILIZED the farm, or EXPLOITED the farm, to get us 3 division titles and a championship. And no, I'm not complaining about it.

 

Which doesn't mean I'm unaware of the importance of the farm or that it needs improvement.

 

It's exactly how i feel stated in such a better way.

[cp176]

Personal guess - not a lot. Maybe Dalbec and Hernandez...

 

i would tend to add to your list just a bit -

 

C.J. Chatham could become the second baseman that we are looking for.

Kyle Hart - just never know

Tanner Houck - well worth a shot and soon.

Jarren Durran- has the apparent skills to play a role fairly soon

Bryan Mata - don't think that I would give up on arm like that just yet.

 

I'm the optimist. I get that but the farm was well used but it is not the dire straits that some people seem to think that it is.

[Kimmi]

Given the scale of the moves - I have to assume that ownership had to green light the big ones. The Sale and Price deals were too big to have been done without ownership weighing in. Dombrowski had just left Detroit - there was a clear MO. Henry knew this would happen and is basically using him as a human shield because the team did not make the playoffs. Henry has done this before so this is not tin foil hat stuff.

 

Also note that Henry's issue is payroll, not the farm per se. Dombrowski maybe traded one prospect (Kopech) we'll really miss.

 

Yes, Henry ultimately had to green light the moves. And yes, Henry brought in somebody that he knew would be aggressive. Henry really cannot pass the blame for the restrictive state that this team is in. My point is that regardless of all of that, Dombrowski could have brought us a championship without going to the extreme that he did.

 

Also, payroll is an issue because we don't have a farm.

[Kimmi]

I'd say "decimated" is closer to reality than saying "some depth was lost."

 

Both are off the mark.

 

Who are you kidding? The farm was decimated. It went from a top 3 to a bottom 3 in approximately 2 years.

[Kimmi]

no they arent. the farm was 100% decimated by DD. it went from a top 2 or 3 to the #30 farm in baseball when he was fired.

that is Farm decimated.

 

I love you.

[Kimmi]

Red Sox fans used to whine because they couldn't win the World Series.

 

Now they whine because although they won the World Series, they spent too much money doing it, or traded too many prospects.

 

(A post specifically designed to stir up trouble. )

 

I have never been a fan of big spending or trading tons of prospects.

 

Farm system, farm system, farm system. I can't say it enough.

[Kimmi]

Whether it was designed to stir up trouble or not, it's spot-on. Everything about who we could (or could not) have traded for the players on the WSC team is now pure speculation. It's equally as easy to speculate that had the FO done things exactly as they did we wouldn't have that banner flying.

 

Some people can't enjoy anything. :-(

 

It's not a matter of not enjoying anything. I 100% enjoyed 2018, despite not liking the way Dombrowski did his business.

 

It's something to discuss on a baseball forum, that's all.

[Kimmi]

Maybe it's me but I fail to get all the crying, whining, and hand wringing about the state of our farm. Yes, it's weak. But there's a reason it's weak. We can speculate all we want about the return we could have gotten for our minor leaguers and whether or not they were "good trades" but there's only one thing that's not speculation. The Sox won the WS in 2018. I know that because I've got the t-shirts, sweatshirts, and caps to prove it!

 

We might have won with different players or we might have won with different trades but those are just 'might's. Yes, the farm is weak and there aren't the players we'd like to have to fill positions in the next couple of years but I'll live with that every day for the 2018 season and the World Series Championship.

 

I much prefer that to a t-shirt that says:

"BOSTON RED SOX.

We continue to have the best farm system in the majors".

 

Does it have to be an either/or though?

 

We could have had a WS Championship, and still maintained a good farm system.

[Bellhorn04]

I have never been a fan of big spending or trading tons of prospects.

 

Farm system, farm system, farm system. I can't say it enough.

 

But even having 'good, cheap players' from the farm has a pretty short window now. It does if it's a really top player, at least.

 

Mookie will end up getting paid about 60 million for his 3 arb years.

 

That's not exactly cheap.

[Kimmi]

But even having 'good, cheap players' from the farm has a pretty short window now. It does if it's a really top player, at least.

 

Mookie will end up getting paid about 60 million for his 3 arb years.

 

That's not exactly cheap.

 

Most players are not going to make as much money in arb as Mookie did. Regardless, you need the cost-controlled players to help balance the cost of the expensive guys. You need the Rafael Devers of the world. Ideally, there should be a revolving door of farm players ready to step in when the other guys get too expensive.

[moonslav59]

Who are you kidding? The farm was decimated. It went from a top 3 to a bottom 3 in approximately 2 years.

 

Come on, part of the reason was we rushed Devers to graduation, and we also kept Beni.

 

Look, I said it was closer to decimated than "some" prospects were traded, and being ranked 30th for 2 straight years certainly can be called decimated, but we look like we might have 2-3 guys in the top 100 in the next rankings, so maybe we are just arguing semantics.

 

Here were the top Sox prospects, when DD took over:

 

1. Moncada

2. Devers

3. Espinoza

4. Margot

5. Beni

6. Guerra

7. Kopech

8. Johnson

9. Travis

10. Marerro

11. Chavis

(5 of top 11 were not traded.)

 

ERod & Barnes had just graduated months earlier and Swihart and Owens fell off the table shortly after DD took over, but they were not traded.

 

 

Edited October 1, 2019 by moonslav59

[moonslav59]

Most players are not going to make as much money in arb as Mookie did. Regardless, you need the cost-controlled players to help balance the cost of the expensive guys. You need the Rafael Devers of the world. Ideally, there should be a revolving door of farm players ready to step in when the other guys get too expensive.

 

Yes, and even $60M/3 for Betts was a steal.

[vegasbob]

Does it have to be an either/or though?

 

We could have had a WS Championship, and still maintained a good farm system.

 

And maybe cake and ice cream too, Kimmi. Along with a check in the mailbox for being a loyal fan all year while they fought to reach and hold .500. I don't really argue your reasoned logic, but whatever it took the WS flag will be there when we are done and gone. Win now, tomorrow comes at its own risk.

[TylerD]

It's even funnier when we ask him to apply the same logic to the Jake Peavy trade...

 

I remember Jake Peavy..... he was pretty decent for us! 6 years seems so long ago already. I was 26 at the time, working at a bank. Man how time flies.

 

Now I work for the city.

 

 

Anyway..... so..., that damn Cora.

[moonslav59]

And maybe cake and ice cream too, Kimmi. Along with a check in the mailbox for being a loyal fan all year while they fought to reach and hold .500. I don't really argue your reasoned logic, but whatever it took the WS flag will be there when we are done and gone. Win now, tomorrow comes at its own risk.

 

Yes, and Tomorrow is now today.

[S5Dewey]

It's even funnier when we ask him to apply the same logic to the Jake Peavy trade...

 

?? I had no comments about the farm after the Peavy trade.

[cp176]

When I see this list it just kind of confirms my personal opinion - the farm certainly was used but based on what these top prospects traded have done compared to the return not in any way was it ruined or decimated. It is possible that some might become stars in the future but their trades brought us legitimate stars. There are any number of people here who just didn't like the way DD did business and obviously are pleased that he is gone. hey I'm ok with that I felt the same way when Cherington was fired. Oh wait - some of you don't think that he was fired. Sorry! I grew kind of tired by the way he did business so I do understand how you feel. Now I know that some of you will bitch that I brought up Cherington's name - tit for tat .

[Bellhorn04]

?? I had no comments about the farm after the Peavy trade.

 

You didn't think we should have traded Iggy for him though.

[S5Dewey]

You didn't think we should have traded Iggy for him though.

 

I didn't and I still don't, but that's neither here nor there in this discussion. That trade had little to nothing to do with the farm and this discussion is about how trades have affected our farm system.

[Bellhorn04]

Most players are not going to make as much money in arb as Mookie did. Regardless, you need the cost-controlled players to help balance the cost of the expensive guys. You need the Rafael Devers of the world. Ideally, there should be a revolving door of farm players ready to step in when the other guys get too expensive.

 

'Ideally', yes. But there is a big gap between the ideal and the real.

 

Just take a look at Theo's farm system now. He's having the same issues as us.

[Bellhorn04]

I didn't and I still don't, but that's neither here nor there in this discussion. That trade had little to nothing to do with the farm and this discussion is about how trades have affected our farm system.

 

Trading Iggy was pretty close to trading a top prospect, no? He was only 23 and in his rookie season, and under team control for 5 more years.

 

It was a trade of the future for the present.

Edited October 2, 2019 by Bellhorn04

[S5Dewey]

Trading Iggy was pretty close to trading a top prospect, no? He was only 23 and in his rookie season, and under team control for 5 more years.

 

It was a trade of the future for the present.

 

Maybe we have different definitions of "prospect". To me a prospect is someone who hasn't yet been assigned to the ML club for any extended period of time and doesn't have an established role.

 

At the time Iggy had over 200 PA's and was on track for 350 PA's that year when he was traded at the end of July. To me he was more like Michael Chavis was this year - a bench-strength member of the team rather than just a prospect.

 

In addition, he had a potential full-time defensive position with the Red Sox @ SS hinging on what they decided to do with Bogaerts.

 

I still don't think trading Iglesias for Peavy was "a good idea" just because the Sox won the WS that year. Winning the WSC doesn't justify everything that was done that season.

[Bellhorn04]

Maybe we have different definitions of "prospect". To me a prospect is someone who hasn't yet been assigned to the ML club for any extended period of time and doesn't have an established role.

 

At the time Iggy had over 200 PA's and was on track for 350 PA's that year when he was traded at the end of July. To me he was more like Michael Chavis was this year - a bench-strength member of the team rather than just a prospect.

 

In addition, he had a potential full-time defensive position with the Red Sox @ SS hinging on what they decided to do with Bogaerts.

 

I still don't think trading Iglesias for Peavy was "a good idea" just because the Sox won the WS that year. Winning the WSC doesn't justify everything that was done that season.

 

Well, I'm afraid we can't put you in the 'not complaining' group.

[S5Dewey]

Well, I'm afraid we can't put you in the 'not complaining' group.

 

That's brutal!!

 

I'm the one who's been running around here saying that yes, the farm system is weak but we had a bumper crop of prospects whom we promoted to the parent club which in turn led to the WSC. We hit the 'perfect storm' of prospects and capitalized on it. IMO we'd still be capitalizing on it had our starting pitching not imploded on us.

 

Now that reality has set in I'm ok with the trade-off of having a weaker farm system. I'm just disappointed that the Perfect Storm didn't last another season or two.

[notin]

Maybe we have different definitions of "prospect". To me a prospect is someone who hasn't yet been assigned to the ML club for any extended period of time and doesn't have an established role.

 

At the time Iggy had over 200 PA's and was on track for 350 PA's that year when he was traded at the end of July. To me he was more like Michael Chavis was this year - a bench-strength member of the team rather than just a prospect.

 

In addition, he had a potential full-time defensive position with the Red Sox @ SS hinging on what they decided to do with Bogaerts.

 

I still don't think trading Iglesias for Peavy was "a good idea" just because the Sox won the WS that year. Winning the WSC doesn't justify everything that was done that season.

 

Does winning in 2018 justify all the moves that were made to build that club?

 

"We might have won with different players or we might have won with different trades but those are just 'might's. Yes, the farm is weak and there aren't the players we'd like to have to fill positions in the next couple of years but I'll live with that every day for the 2018 season and the World Series Championship."

 

Just substitute farm system for defensive shortstop, and is that statement still accurate?

 

Not sure why people think it's horribly incorrect to appreciate the title, but critisize some of the moves that got you there. That's OK. But be consistent about it. (I didn't like the Peavy trade, either. I wanted to see the Sox just deal Middlebrooks directly to the White Sox for Peavy and keep Iglesias at 3b.)

Edited October 2, 2019 by notin

[moonslav59]

When I see this list it just kind of confirms my personal opinion - the farm certainly was used but based on what these top prospects traded have done compared to the return not in any way was it ruined or decimated. It is possible that some might become stars in the future but their trades brought us legitimate stars. There are any number of people here who just didn't like the way DD did business and obviously are pleased that he is gone. hey I'm ok with that I felt the same way when Cherington was fired. Oh wait - some of you don't think that he was fired. Sorry! I grew kind of tired by the way he did business so I do understand how you feel. Now I know that some of you will bitch that I brought up Cherington's name - tit for tat .

 

Judging who we traded before they've reached the end of team control years is premature.

[cp176]

Judging who we traded before they've reached the end of team control years is premature.

 

Not for me - there you go though. Once again, i like those trades and will continue to support GM's of the future if they do what they can to help us be successful without prior years of suffering.

[notin]

That's brutal!!

 

I'm the one who's been running around here saying that yes, the farm system is weak but we had a bumper crop of prospects whom we promoted to the parent club which in turn led to the WSC. We hit the 'perfect storm' of prospects and capitalized on it. IMO we'd still be capitalizing on it had our starting pitching not imploded on us.

 

Now that reality has set in I'm ok with the trade-off of having a weaker farm system. I'm just disappointed that the Perfect Storm didn't last another season or two.

 

I think everyone agrees that is where we are. The problem is, it doesn't bode well for the next season or two...

[notin]

Not for me - there you go though. Once again, i like those trades and will continue to support GM's of the future if they do what they can to help us be successful without prior years of suffering.

 

Nice condition. What about if we have those years of suffering? Whoever takes over for Dombrowski has a pretty arduous task and the outcome is less likely to be positive...

[S5Dewey]

I think everyone agrees that is where we are. The problem is, it doesn't bode well for the next season or two...

 

...and I'm good with that. I'm certainly not crazy about it but it is what it is and there's little that can be done about it.

 

I see two roads to take now. The FO can either try to get one more year out of the position players believing that this group is good enough to win at least the AL East again. This would mean filling a couple of spots on the pitching staff and then hoping the remaining pitchers can come back to their 2018 form. From what I'm hearing JH is saying that's not his first option.

 

The second road is to throw in the towel and essentially telling everyone that we're resetting now. That will probably cause JDM to exercise his option, cause the team to somehow relieve themselves of JBJ and Mookie and suffer through the contracts of Sale and Price. That will happen either prior to the 2020 season or the 2021 season.

 

Whichever road they choose I'll live through it... hopefully!