Fire alex cora

[a700hitter]

...and if we play everyone more next spring, and we suck in April, will that one month sample size be "proof positive" of anything at all?

 

I'm thinking, "NO!" Just like this April was.

They will do things different next spring, so the organization thinks it was a mistake. Take it up with them.

[Bellhorn04]

Without a doubt , Cora will change the spring training program next year . But there will be those on here who will insist that there is a different reason for the change than this year's problems . That's S.O.P. around here .

 

All year long you said the big problem with the team was the bullpen and DD's fault for ignoring it. Now you've changed your tune and it's the slow start and Cora's fault.

[Bellhorn04]

They will do things different next spring, so the organization thinks it was a mistake. Take it up with them.

 

How is doing things differently next spring going to prove anything?

 

They did things differently this spring because of the World Series run.

 

It's going to be two completely different sets of circumstances.

[a700hitter]

How is doing things differently next spring going to prove anything?

 

They did things differently this spring because of the World Series run.

 

It's going to be two completely different sets of circumstances.

Remy and Eck are on record that it was a mistake. The organization will not do it again as we will see in the Spring. Draw your own conclusions. One conclusion is correct. The other is just a denial of the obvious. You are a smart guy. I'll leave it to you to figure out which is which.

[dgalehouse]

All year long you said the big problem with the team was the bullpen and DD's fault for ignoring it. Now you've changed your tune and it's the slow start and Cora's fault.

 

That's not the case at all . The fact is I was one of the very few who saw the storm clouds gathering way back in the off season . I mentioned both Dombrowski's complacency , the bullpen situation , and Cora's lackadaisical spring training regimen . I was shot down then on all points by the same ones who are now still grasping for answers . Where was I wrong ? There is enough blame to go around for both D.D. and Cora . The storm clouds back in February were real . Both Cora and D.D. were remiss . But only one was fired .

[Bellhorn04]

Remy and Eck are on record that it was a mistake. The organization will not do it again as we will see in the Spring. Draw your own conclusions. One conclusion is correct. The other is just a denial of the obvious. You are a smart guy. I'll leave it to you to figure out which is which.

 

Sure, just completely ignore the very obvious point of why this year's program, mistaken though it may have been, was different.

[dgalehouse]

How is doing things differently next spring going to prove anything?

 

They did things differently this spring because of the World Series run.

 

It's going to be two completely different sets of circumstances.

 

There you go . Already we are seeing the alternate reasons for what we all know is coming .

[a700hitter]

Sure, just completely ignore the very obvious point of why this year's program, mistaken though it may have been, was different.

Even taking into consideration why it was different, it flopped.

[Bellhorn04]

There you go . Already we are seeing the alternate reasons for what we all know is coming .

 

They're very different situations, Denny. It's a plain and simple fact.

 

The different spring training regimen this year was heavily publicized, and it was also heavily publicized that the different program had everything to do with the long postseason.

 

Maybe you missed that part.

[Bellhorn04]

Even taking into consideration why it was different, it flopped.

 

On that point I can't argue.

[dgalehouse]

Joey : " A lot of dark clouds up there . I think it's going to rain ." Jimmy : " Nah , your'e wrong . Often there are clouds and it doesn't rain . It will clear up . We'll be fine ." Later : It rained like hell . Joey : " I told you it would rain ." Jimmy : " Nah , you're still wrong . Sure it rained , but not because of the clouds . It was an unexpected cold front that came through . Nobody saw that coming . ". Joey : " Okay . Whatever . "

[moonslav59]

They will do things different next spring, so the organization thinks it was a mistake. Take it up with them.

 

One thing will be different. Our starters will not be overworked from the previous season and 3 playoffs series, including one super long game.

 

I'm not arguing that the extra rest may or may not have made a difference in April or the whole season. It's impossible to even come close to knowing one way or the other. For some the amount of innings pitched was just marginally less in 2019.

 

Certainly IP'd in the playoffs do not substitute for IP's in March, but it's not unreasonable to think going a little easier on some starters in ST'ing after being overworked a few months earlier is not some wild and crazy idea. Plus, Eovaldi, Sale and Price had shown injury and durability issues in recent years, so thinking we might want to limit the risk of injury or burning them out early has some merit.

 

They all sucked AND got hurt. That fact does not prove anything about the ST'ing plan. It appears to support the idea that it was a bad idea, but it can never be proven. I'd like to know what those three starters feel about the idea that the extra rest hurt them- not that it would prove anything no matter what they say.

 

2019 Playoff IP

26.0 Price (5 GS/1 RP)

22.1 Eovaldi (2 GS/4 RP)

15.1 C Sale (3 GS/2 RP)

15.1 Porcello (3GS/2RP)

10.0 ERod (1 GS/ 6RP)

 

ST'ing IP

'19-'18-'17 Pitcher

15-Inj- 22 ERod

12-16-14 Porcello

9-15-21 Sale

7-12-Inj Price

Inj- Eovaldi

 

Looks minor to me, but who knows?

 

 

 

[dgalehouse]

Training camp next year will be run differently . Pick whatever reason suits you , but things will not be done the same way again .

[moonslav59]

Training camp next year will be run differently . Pick whatever reason suits you , but things will not be done the same way again .

 

I don't disagree. It makes sense to change what doesn't appear to work.

 

Plus, nobody needs extra rest due to pitching a lot in Sept and Oct.

 

My guess is Price and Sale will still be babied with pitch counts all 2020, no matter what they do in ST'ing.

[Bellhorn04]

Training camp next year will be run differently . Pick whatever reason suits you , but things will not be done the same way again .

 

No one here would predict anything different. A very safe bet indeed.

[oldtimer]

I don't disagree. It makes sense to change what doesn't appear to work.

 

Plus, nobody needs extra rest due to pitching a lot in Sept and Oct.

 

My guess is Price and Sale will still be babied with pitch counts all 2020, no matter what they do in ST'ing.

 

Will Cora change any of his coaches? Will the new GM powwow with Cora and the front office to decide on a different plan. It turns out the plan didn't work as our pitchers weren't ready in the beginning and were too fragile to make it even into September let along October. Most teams experience pitching problems during the year, but ours seemed to be more pronounced.

[a700hitter]

One thing will be different. Our starters will not be overworked from the previous season and 3 playoffs series, including one super long game.

 

I'm not arguing that the extra rest may or may not have made a difference in April or the whole season. It's impossible to even come close to knowing one way or the other. For some the amount of innings pitched was just marginally less in 2019.

 

Certainly IP'd in the playoffs do not substitute for IP's in March, but it's not unreasonable to think going a little easier on some starters in ST'ing after being overworked a few months earlier is not some wild and crazy idea. Plus, Eovaldi, Sale and Price had shown injury and durability issues in recent years, so thinking we might want to limit the risk of injury or burning them out early has some merit.

 

They all sucked AND got hurt. That fact does not prove anything about the ST'ing plan. It appears to support the idea that it was a bad idea, but it can never be proven. I'd like to know what those three starters feel about the idea that the extra rest hurt them- not that it would prove anything no matter what they say.

 

2019 Playoff IP

26.0 Price (5 GS/1 RP)

22.1 Eovaldi (2 GS/4 RP)

15.1 C Sale (3 GS/2 RP)

15.1 Porcello (3GS/2RP)

10.0 ERod (1 GS/ 6RP)

 

ST'ing IP

'19-'18-'17 Pitcher

15-Inj- 22 ERod

12-16-14 Porcello

9-15-21 Sale

7-12-Inj Price

Inj- Eovaldi

 

Looks minor to me, but who knows?

 

 

 

And what is your excuse for not playing the position players either in ST? The hitters weren't ready either in April. Maybe they were worn out from all that post season on hitting. The stupid Spring Training extended beyond the pitchers. Remy talked a lot about that last week.

[Slasher9]

It was the lackadaisical tone he set in spring training.. It lasted the entire season

[Larry Cook]

And what is your excuse for not playing the position players either in ST? The hitters weren't ready either in April. Maybe they were worn out from all that post season on hitting. The stupid Spring Training extended beyond the pitchers. Remy talked a lot about that last week.

 

There’s no excuse for why the hitters were not prepared for the regular season.

 

As they say, no championship was ever won in April, but you can sure lose one in April.

 

Terrible decisions in spring training, injured starters and struggles at Fenway aside, we are still 9 games over .500. I mean we are not Baltimore!

 

Maybe that’s why Cora should keep his job!

[jacksonianmarch]

Cora took for granted the preparation that a championship team needs to undertake to win the title. He thought he was helping his squad by resting them, but he set a tone that wasn't healthy. It didn't prepare the pitchers for the rigors of the season, which I believe, led to some injury and a lot of the early poor play. It was an arrogant approach to the season, one you would see with a guy like Lucchino running the FO again. He got arrogant and every time he did, the team suffered. This time, Cora got arrogant and it bit his team in the ass. You will bet ST next year is gonna be rigorous

[moonslav59]

And what is your excuse for not playing the position players either in ST? The hitters weren't ready either in April. Maybe they were worn out from all that post season on hitting. The stupid Spring Training extended beyond the pitchers. Remy talked a lot about that last week.

 

I have none, and all of this is conjecture, on both sides.

[a700hitter]

I have none, and all of this is conjecture, on both sides.

It isn't conjecture that Cora held back the hitters and pitchers in Spring Training. It is isn't conjecture that both the hitting and pitching got off to a very slow start in March/April. It isn't conjecture that they will approach Spring Training differently in 2020. You draw a different conclusion from this than Remy, Eckersley and I do.

[Larry Cook]

Cora took for granted the preparation that a championship team needs to undertake to win the title. He thought he was helping his squad by resting them, but he set a tone that wasn't healthy. It didn't prepare the pitchers for the rigors of the season, which I believe, led to some injury and a lot of the early poor play. It was an arrogant approach to the season, one you would see with a guy like Lucchino running the FO again. He got arrogant and every time he did, the team suffered. This time, Cora got arrogant and it bit his team in the ass. You will bet ST next year is gonna be rigorous

 

I agree 100 percent with this. Except, I think desperate Dave was driving the bus on the spring training country club atmosphere, which is why Henry showed him the trap door!

[moonslav59]

It isn't conjecture that Cora held back the hitters and pitchers in Spring Training. It is isn't conjecture that both the hitting and pitching got off to a very slow start in March/April. It isn't conjecture that they will approach Spring Training differently in 2020. You draw a different conclusion from this than Remy, Eckersley and I do.

 

It's obvious I was saying the conclusions are conjecture, and for you to pretend otherwise is very telling.

 

FYI

 

ABs 2018>2019

 

52 >42 Betts

50 >52 Devers

47 >43 Bogey

47 >40 JD

46 >47 Beni

46 >43 JBJ

45 >32 Moreland

39 >39 Holt

38 >38 Vaz

 

4 of these 9 players had the same or more ABs in 2019 STing.

 

The ones that did not had these less:

10 Betts

7 JD

7 Moreland

4 Bogey

3 JBJ

 

If I didn't know any better, I'd think you were joking to think these minor variances had such a major impact.

[moonslav59]

It isn't conjecture that Cora held back the hitters and pitchers in Spring Training. It is isn't conjecture that both the hitting and pitching got off to a very slow start in March/April. It isn't conjecture that they will approach Spring Training differently in 2020. You draw a different conclusion from this than Remy, Eckersley and I do.

 

Also, I don't draw a different conclusion on all this. I draw no conclusions. It very well might have made a difference. It very well might not have. The conclusions are total conjecture.

 

Not that I've never used conjecture, but I just find this whole subject pointless. We had reasons to give these guys a tiny bit more rest in ST'ing. We started off slow and had several other slow points in the season despite the extra rest that should have helped us later. It didn't work out that way. Blame it on restgate, if you wish, but I think there were many factors involved in the huge drop off, and restgate seems like a 50-50 call to me.

[moonslav59]

I agree 100 percent with this. Except, I think desperate Dave was driving the bus on the spring training country club atmosphere, which is why Henry showed him the trap door!

 

To me, if I had to guess, I'd say it was more Cora's idea than DD's.

 

DD was canned for other reasons, IMO, including leaving almost nothing in the farm and the way he was dealing with ownership and others in the organization not restgate.

[cp176]

To me, if I had to guess, I'd say it was more Cora's idea than DD's.

 

DD was canned for other reasons, IMO, including leaving almost nothing in the farm and the way he was dealing with ownership and others in the organization not restgate.

 

Some people here seem to share your sentiments. The but seems to be that some of those same people were not particularly opposed to the trades that were made to allow us to be so very successful. This i find quite ironic. The alternative I guess was to not make many of the trades or to have done exactly what a few posters here have suggested with respect to them. i happen to think that a constant claim that DD destroyed the farm while winning the world series is a little silly. I do also believe that mlb in general has made it very difficult for a team to be successful without a constant production of high level homegrown talent. There is a great deal of hindsight that gets thrown around here so i feel reasonably confident in saying that moving forward I think that it is highly unlikely that anyone traded will become the next super star. Also making ml teams pay a huge penalty for payroll decisions will ultimately allow the very very rich to get very very very richer. I'm ok with that but think about it - you think that is what most of the posters here want to see?

[Bellhorn04]

It's obvious I was saying the conclusions are conjecture, and for you to pretend otherwise is very telling.

 

FYI

 

ABs 2018>2019

 

52 >42 Betts

50 >52 Devers

47 >43 Bogey

47 >40 JD

46 >47 Beni

46 >43 JBJ

45 >32 Moreland

39 >39 Holt

38 >38 Vaz

 

4 of these 9 players had the same or more ABs in 2019 STing.

 

The ones that did not had these less:

10 Betts

7 JD

7 Moreland

4 Bogey

3 JBJ

 

If I didn't know any better, I'd think you were joking to think these minor variances had such a major impact.

 

I know, the whole thing is making mountains out of molehills.

[Bellhorn04]

Also, I don't draw a different conclusion on all this. I draw no conclusions. It very well might have made a difference. It very well might not have. The conclusions are total conjecture.

 

Not that I've never used conjecture, but I just find this whole subject pointless. We had reasons to give these guys a tiny bit more rest in ST'ing. We started off slow and had several other slow points in the season despite the extra rest that should have helped us later. It didn't work out that way. Blame it on restgate, if you wish, but I think there were many factors involved in the huge drop off, and restgate seems like a 50-50 call to me.

 

Agree 100%.

[moonslav59]

Some people here seem to share your sentiments. The but seems to be that some of those same people were not particularly opposed to the trades that were made to allow us to be so very successful. This i find quite ironic. The alternative I guess was to not make many of the trades or to have done exactly what a few posters here have suggested with respect to them. i happen to think that a constant claim that DD destroyed the farm while winning the world series is a little silly. I do also believe that mlb in general has made it very difficult for a team to be successful without a constant production of high level homegrown talent. There is a great deal of hindsight that gets thrown around here so i feel reasonably confident in saying that moving forward I think that it is highly unlikely that anyone traded will become the next super star. Also making ml teams pay a huge penalty for payroll decisions will ultimately allow the very very rich to get very very very richer. I'm ok with that but think about it - you think that is what most of the posters here want to see?

 

I don't think the choices were to trade every notable prospect, except Devers & Beni or trade none.

 

I'm not sure there's a single poster here that said trade none, yet we keep hearing (not from you) that anyone critical of all the trades wanted to "hoard" all the prospects. I don't even think it was Ben's long term plan to hoard them forever- but to strike a balance.

 

Maybe saying he "destroyed the farm" is a little harsh, but we were ranked #1 by one service and between 3 and 6 by several others- now we are 30th by just about every service. What would you call that?

 

We all knew we'd pay to some extent for trading so many prospects. I'm super glad he kept Devers & Beni, but to some varying degree in opinions, we all know we sacrificed some to a lot of the future to open a 3-5 year window of championship caliber teams.