A Realistic View at 2018: Part I

[moonslav59]

Yet fans still insist the team spend kajillions of dollars to bring in free agents every year to prove that winning trumps making money as a priority. This is in spite of the fact that almost every big money free agent at one point becomes the exact type of hindrance, since most of them are already on the wrong side of 30 and don't have 6 or 7 good years left.

 

And this happens time and time and time again. And somehow fans think their GM is bad to take the 1 or 2 lemons. And now those 2 bad deals are PREVENTING this team from getting better. What a bad GM!! We can't sign the free agents we NEED!!

 

The best way to build a strong team is to avoid any free agent deal longer than 3 years. And have a strong farm. But that method takes too long for most fans...

 

...and/or try to keep a strong farm that continuously stock the 25 man roster with cost-effective stars that limit the amount of chances you have to take on big free agents.

 

Most big free agents end up coming way short of expectations- quite a bit do from day one.

 

Still. it's hard to imagine how the current Sox team can significantly improve next year without signing some impact free agents.

 

We need a huge boost at 1B or two moderate boosts at two positions.

 

We can probably sign someone pretty good to play 1B on a one-year deal, but how much "impact" can we expect from Morrison, Duda, Alonso or bringing Moreland back? Then, maybe sign a 4th OF'er that could DH some to a 1-3 year deal, but who? We could try to add pitching, but we already have 25 man roster crunches, so what we really need is a very good pitcher who represents a significant upgrade over what we have. That will be costly.

 

It's a Catch-22.

 

Damned if we do- damned if we don't.

 

[Bellhorn04]

Yes, at one time Beckett was on pace for being one of MLB's legendary "money pitchers."

 

He still goes down as a big time postseason performer in my books. You can't take away what he did in 2003 and 2007 because of what happened after that. As sk7326 says, flags fly forever.

[moonslav59]

And this is a common story for GM's at the helm of big market teams.

 

No doubt.

[moonslav59]

He still goes down as a big time postseason performer in my books. You can't take away what he did in 2003 and 2007 because of what happened after that. As sk7326 says, flags fly forever.

 

Oh, I agree, but he's no longer viewed as the best of all time, like he was on pace at becoming.

[jacksonianmarch]

Yes, at one time Beckett was on pace for being one of MLB's legendary "money pitchers."

 

I didn't blame Theo for extending him, but the fact is, it was a bad move.

 

Ben inherited two big duds and learned nothing from it.

 

He then left DD two new duds all of his own.

 

Beckett believed his own press clippings and admittedly got soft after getting his big contract.

[moonslav59]

Beckett believed his own press clippings and admittedly got soft after getting his big contract.

 

It just goes. to show you how virtually impossible it is to judge a player's character.

[moonslav59]

Beckett believed his own press clippings...

 

Show me a starting pitcher who is not totally confident (or even over confident) in himself, and I'll show you a journeyman.

[moonslav59]

What about Wil Myers as a trade candidate?

 

He's dirt cheap the next 2 years, so 2020 might be the time SD looks to trade him, but he hit 30 HRs last year playing half his games in SD.

 

 

Contract: $14M luxury tax cost

 

6 years/$83M (2017-22), plus 2023 club option

signed extension with San Diego 1/17/17 (avoided arbitration, $4M-$3.4M)

$15M signing bonus

17:$2M, 18:$2M, 19:$3M, 20:$20M, 21:$20M, 22:$20M, 23:$20M club option ($1M buyout)

[Kimmi]

I did not have a problem with the Hanley signing.

 

But I did think sending him to the outfield was a joke.

 

I do not know how he will hit coming back from shoulder surgery, but I think if he is healthy, he can make us a better team!

 

I did not have a problem with the Hanley signing either, nor did I have a problem at the time with making him our left fielder. I also am in no hurry to trade him away.

 

Stanton's contract, OTOH, I have a problem with.

[Kimmi]

I doubt he wanted to play LF. I'm just guessing, but I think he'd have preferred 3B, since he had played there before.

 

If I recall correctly, Hanley volunteered to go to left field so that he could come to Boston. To knowledge, he has done everything the team has asked him to do.

[Kimmi]

I heard Hanley contacted the Red Sox and expressed a strong desire to come back. At the time, the Red Sox were deep into Pablo Sandoval negotiations. I heard but cannot verify Hanley stated he was open to any position, which was how thr LF experiment began.

 

Obviously I am left out of these negotiations, and the only real support has been that Hanley certainly left both money and years on the table to come to Boston. And he hasn't shown anything remotely resembling an attitude problem, despite many fans trying to paint him exactly that way...

 

This is my understanding as well. There has been no indication of an attitude problem.

 

Price, OTOH, .....

[Kimmi]

yet fans still insist the team spend kajillions of dollars to bring in free agents every year to prove that winning trumps making money as a priority. This is in spite of the fact that almost every big money free agent at one point becomes the exact type of hindrance, since most of them are already on the wrong side of 30 and don't have 6 or 7 good years left.

 

And this happens time and time and time again. And somehow fans think their gm is bad to take the 1 or 2 lemons. And now those 2 bad deals are preventing this team from getting better. What a bad gm!! We can't sign the free agents we need!!

 

The best way to build a strong team is to avoid any free agent deal longer than 3 years. And have a strong farm. But that method takes too long for most fans...

 

bingo!

[Kimmi]

There really is no surefire guaranteed method for sustained success, not the way the system is now, as we can see in the fact that no team has been able to repeat since the 2000 Yankees.

 

Avoiding any free agent deals longer than 3 years sounds like a great idea but it's pretty hard to get any top-line players on such deals. It will get you players like Cherington signed in 2013. It worked for one year, not so much after that.

 

There are obviously times when it will be necessary to sign a free agent to a deal longer than 3 years. The point is that building a good franchise starts with a strong farm, and those long term Stanton deals should be avoided.

[Kimmi]

He still goes down as a big time postseason performer in my books. You can't take away what he did in 2003 and 2007 because of what happened after that. As sk7326 says, flags fly forever.

 

Beckett has a lifetime pass as far as I'm concerned.

[moonslav59]

If I recall correctly, Hanley volunteered to go to left field so that he could come to Boston. To knowledge, he has done everything the team has asked him to do.

 

He wanted to come to Boston. He was willing to play LF, but that does not mean he wanted to play LF.

 

I would guess he'd have rather have played 3B- a position he had played before.

 

I didn't mean to imply they forced him to play LF against his will.

 

[moonslav59]

Beckett has a lifetime pass as far as I'm concerned.

 

I'm glad we traded for him, even though we "gave up the farm" to get Josh and Mike.

 

I still have my Beckett jersey.

 

That being said, Ben was given a couple albatross contracts- same as DD.

[dgalehouse]

Like many Sox fans , I doubted that I would live to see a Red Sox championship. Now , I have seen three. Everyone who contributed to any of the three pretty much gets a pass from me. Beckett surely is one of them. But that does not make any of them immune from criticism.

[moonslav59]

Like many Sox fans , I doubted that I would live to see a Red Sox championship. Now , I have seen three. Everyone who contributed to any of the three pretty much gets a pass from me. Beckett surely is one of them. But that does not make any of them immune from criticism.

 

Exactly. I began as a Sox fan in the early 70's. I thought I might go my whole life never experiencing seeing my beloved Sox win a ring.

 

2004 was cathartic. 2007 was buttah! 2013 started making me think there will be more to come.

 

Beckett was "the Man" in the 2007 playoffs for us, as he was for the Marlins.

 

He could have gone 0-50 after that, and I'd still have always had good thoughts more than bad about him.

 

Same with Vic to a lesser extent.

 

[Larry Cook]

When Theo was hired, I really felt he had a vision or a plan to get us a championship and build a perennial championship calibre team.

 

Theo fought with and prevailed against a meddling Larry and delivered for us.

 

One bad ending to a season, ending with a boatload of fried chicken and beer and Theo and Fran are off the property. Larry brought in valentine and he had a puppet GM installed by the name of Ben, Did anybody really think that valentine would work?

 

So then Larry jettisoned valentine and brought in Farrell. Simultaneously, Ben won the lottery on low/medium cost veteran free agents. However Ben and Larry tried to play their hand an extra season and that did not end well,

 

Ben then started to rebuild the correct way, but the slow way, by restocking the farm. Larry brought in Hanley and the clown panda.

 

So finally Henry has it with Larry and boots him. I give Henry high marks for making that decision.

 

But then, desperate dave becomes available and Henry loses his mind and brings him in to run the baseball operations department.

 

The result is Ben jumps ship. That offseason most of the best and brightest in the baseball operations department also jump ship in order to get as far away from desperate dave as possible.

 

They recognize that desperate dave is a fireman with no medium to long distance plan and little to no regard for the value of a farm system.

 

So here we sit. A flawed team, with key physically broken down veterans, with no power and underperformers littered across the roster.

 

We, as fans, have almost universally acknowledged that we need power, a 1st baseman, a reserve outfielder and a lefty reliever.

 

We have an expensive roster and less than preferred spending room to fill these holes and because of desperate dave, a mostly barren farm system.

 

Yes, we have won two consecutive al east crowns, but done next to nothing for two October's in a row!

 

So I ask again, does anybody feel this joke of a GM can build us a perennial championship calibre team???

[moonslav59]

When Theo was hired, I really felt he had a vision or a plan to get us a championship and build a perennial championship calibre team.

 

Theo fought with and prevailed against a meddling Larry and delivered for us.

 

One bad ending to a season, ending with a boatload of fried chicken and beer and Theo and Fran are off the property. Larry brought in valentine and he had a puppet GM installed by the name of Ben, Did anybody really think that valentine would work?

 

So then Larry jettisoned valentine and brought in Farrell. Simultaneously, Ben won the lottery on low/medium cost veteran free agents. However Ben and Larry tried to play their hand an extra season and that did not end well,

 

Ben then started to rebuild the correct way, but the slow way, by restocking the farm. Larry brought in Hanley and the clown panda.

 

So finally Henry has it with Larry and boots him. I give Henry high marks for making that decision.

 

But then, desperate dave becomes available and Henry loses his mind and brings him in to run the baseball operations department.

 

The result is Ben jumps ship. That offseason most of the best and brightest in the baseball operations department also jump ship in order to get as far away from desperate dave as possible.

 

They recognize that desperate dave is a fireman with no medium to long distance plan and little to no regard for the value of a farm system.

 

So here we sit. A flawed team, with key physically broken down veterans, with no power and underperformers littered across the roster.

 

We, as fans, have almost universally acknowledged that we need power, a 1st baseman, a reserve outfielder and a lefty reliever.

 

We have an expensive roster and less than preferred spending room to fill these holes and because of desperate dave, a mostly barren farm system.

 

Yes, we have won two consecutive al east crowns, but done next to nothing for two October's in a row!

 

So I ask again, does anybody feel this joke of a GM can build us a perennial championship calibre team???

 

If he's given $40M to spend this winter, and Price stays healthy,then I'd say we have a good 2 year window left. We should make the playoffs both years where just about anything goes.

 

I don't really disagree with your assessment, but I think Larry was involved in a lot of Theo's moves, too but is always blamed for just the bad ones.

[Bellhorn04]

Exactly. I began as a Sox fan in the early 70's. I thought I might go my whole life never experiencing seeing my beloved Sox win a ring.

 

2004 was cathartic. 2007 was buttah! 2013 started making me think there will be more to come.

 

Beckett was "the Man" in the 2007 playoffs for us, as he was for the Marlins.

 

He could have gone 0-50 after that, and I'd still have always had good thoughts more than bad about him.

 

Same with Vic to a lesser extent.

 

 

Keith Foulke is another. Especially since Tito pretty much ruined his arm in the 2004 postseason. It was worth it.

[Bellhorn04]

When Theo was hired, I really felt he had a vision or a plan to get us a championship and build a perennial championship calibre team.

 

Theo fought with and prevailed against a meddling Larry and delivered for us.

 

One bad ending to a season, ending with a boatload of fried chicken and beer and Theo and Fran are off the property. Larry brought in valentine and he had a puppet GM installed by the name of Ben, Did anybody really think that valentine would work?

 

So then Larry jettisoned valentine and brought in Farrell. Simultaneously, Ben won the lottery on low/medium cost veteran free agents. However Ben and Larry tried to play their hand an extra season and that did not end well,

 

Ben then started to rebuild the correct way, but the slow way, by restocking the farm. Larry brought in Hanley and the clown panda.

 

So finally Henry has it with Larry and boots him. I give Henry high marks for making that decision.

 

But then, desperate dave becomes available and Henry loses his mind and brings him in to run the baseball operations department.

 

The result is Ben jumps ship. That offseason most of the best and brightest in the baseball operations department also jump ship in order to get as far away from desperate dave as possible.

 

They recognize that desperate dave is a fireman with no medium to long distance plan and little to no regard for the value of a farm system.

 

So here we sit. A flawed team, with key physically broken down veterans, with no power and underperformers littered across the roster.

 

We, as fans, have almost universally acknowledged that we need power, a 1st baseman, a reserve outfielder and a lefty reliever.

 

We have an expensive roster and less than preferred spending room to fill these holes and because of desperate dave, a mostly barren farm system.

 

Yes, we have won two consecutive al east crowns, but done next to nothing for two October's in a row!

 

So I ask again, does anybody feel this joke of a GM can build us a perennial championship calibre team???

 

I'll ask you the same question I've asked elsewhere:

 

How was Dombrowski supposed to rebuild our pitching staff from virtually nothing without depleting the farm?

[Nick]

When Theo was hired, I really felt he had a vision or a plan to get us a championship and build a perennial championship calibre team.

 

Theo fought with and prevailed against a meddling Larry and delivered for us.

 

One bad ending to a season, ending with a boatload of fried chicken and beer and Theo and Fran are off the property. Larry brought in valentine and he had a puppet GM installed by the name of Ben, Did anybody really think that valentine would work?

 

So then Larry jettisoned valentine and brought in Farrell. Simultaneously, Ben won the lottery on low/medium cost veteran free agents. However Ben and Larry tried to play their hand an extra season and that did not end well,

 

Ben then started to rebuild the correct way, but the slow way, by restocking the farm. Larry brought in Hanley and the clown panda.

 

So finally Henry has it with Larry and boots him. I give Henry high marks for making that decision.

 

But then, desperate dave becomes available and Henry loses his mind and brings him in to run the baseball operations department.

 

The result is Ben jumps ship. That offseason most of the best and brightest in the baseball operations department also jump ship in order to get as far away from desperate dave as possible.

 

They recognize that desperate dave is a fireman with no medium to long distance plan and little to no regard for the value of a farm system.

 

So here we sit. A flawed team, with key physically broken down veterans, with no power and underperformers littered across the roster.

 

We, as fans, have almost universally acknowledged that we need power, a 1st baseman, a reserve outfielder and a lefty reliever.

 

We have an expensive roster and less than preferred spending room to fill these holes and because of desperate dave, a mostly barren farm system.

 

Yes, we have won two consecutive al east crowns, but done next to nothing for two October's in a row!

 

So I ask again, does anybody feel this joke of a GM can build us a perennial championship calibre team???

 

I'm glad you are not our GM.

 

All DD has done is bring for 1st time back to back Division titles. You are okay with coming in last place 3 out of 4 years?

 

He is responsible for key players on the team. We don't win without Price last year. We don't win this year without Sale and Pom. We don't win either years without Kimbrel. He's hamstrung by Pablo's bloated contract for two more f***ing years after overcoming it for last two years.

 

Tell me again how he has failed the Sox?

[Spudboy]

I'm glad you are not our GM.

 

All DD has done is bring for 1st time back to back Division titles. You are okay with coming in last place 3 out of 4 years?

 

He is responsible for key players on the team. We don't win without Price last year. We don't win this year without Sale and Pom. We don't win either years without Kimbrel. He's hamstrung by Pablo's bloated contract for two more f***ing years after overcoming it for last two years.

 

Tell me again how he has failed the Sox?

 

Plus he is a snappy dresser!

[a700hitter]

I'm glad you are not our GM.

 

All DD has done is bring for 1st time back to back Division titles. You are okay with coming in last place 3 out of 4 years?

 

He is responsible for key players on the team. We don't win without Price last year. We don't win this year without Sale and Pom. We don't win either years without Kimbrel. He's hamstrung by Pablo's bloated contract for two more f***ing years after overcoming it for last two years.

 

Tell me again how he has failed the Sox?

People were okay with unprecedented last place finishes by a Red Sox team as long as they were convinced that he was building toward the future. Ben was just awful. To paraphrase Bob Gibson, the only thing Ben knows about pitching is that he can't hit it. The future never would have come under Ben as he could dismantle pitching staffs, but he couldn't build a staff. You can't win without good pitching. Houston was built from the ground up, but they were bold in adding the final touch in acquiring Verlander at the trading deadline. Ben never would have made that type of move.

[moonslav59]

People were okay with unprecedented last place finishes by a Red Sox team as long as they were convinced that he was building toward the future. Ben was just awful. To paraphrase Bob Gibson, the only thing Ben knows about pitching is that he can't hit it. The future never would have come under Ben as he could dismantle pitching staffs, but he couldn't build a staff. You can't win without good pitching. Houston was built from the ground up, but they were bold in adding the final touch in acquiring Verlander at the trading deadline. Ben never would have made that type of move.

 

Houston was built largely by NOT trading away their top prospects and making some strategic signings..

 

Ben was attempting to build a team in a similar manner, and the rug was pulled out before the prospects matured.

 

He made some horrible signings.

Edited October 30, 2017 by moonslav59

[Spudboy]

People were okay with unprecedented last place finishes by a Red Sox team as long as they were convinced that he was building toward the future. Ben was just awful. To paraphrase Bob Gibson, the only thing Ben knows about pitching is that he can't hit it. The future never would have come under Ben as he could dismantle pitching staffs, but he couldn't build a staff. You can't win without good pitching. Houston was built from the ground up, but they were bold in adding the final touch in acquiring Verlander at the trading deadline. Ben never would have made that type of move.

 

But he does fetch a good cup of coffee. I'll give him that.

[a700hitter]

Houston was built largely by NOT trading away their top prospects and making some strategic signings..

 

Ben was attempting to build a team in a similar manner, and the rug was pulled out before the prospects matured.

And the last piece was Verlander -- a move that Ben never would have made.

[a700hitter]

But he does fetch a good cup of coffee. I'll give him that.

His latte's are to die for. LOL!!

[moonslav59]

And the last piece was Verlander -- a move that Ben never would have made.

 

You don't know that.

 

I seriously doubt his plan was to keep every last prospect.

 

Look, Ben made some horrible mistakes. Instead of Morton and Peacock, he got Masterson and Dempster.

 

Instead of Reddick and McCann, he got Pablo & HRam.

 

There's no denying he botched some things up real badly.