2017/18 Hot Stove Thread

[moonslav59]

It's a New England thing. Over rating our own guys. If we wait without adding, for our young guys to become stars that take us to the title, we might be waiting a long time. We have needs that have to be addressed.

 

Agreed.

 

Even World Champs look to improve.

[Jack Flap]

"The front office should consider the effect on our young high performance players of bringing in very highly paid FAs while finagling to keep their salaries low."

 

I don't get this comment...you don't think Mookie, Xander, et. al. would appreciate the team making efforts to get better?

[Bellhorn04]

Agreed.

 

Even World Champs look to improve.

 

Although there are also cases where it's just not realistic for a team to improve, because of impending losses of players to free agency, injuries, financial constraints etc.

 

Also, let us never forget - it's a zero sum game. If some teams are improving it means some teams have to be getting worse.

[Bellhorn04]

"The front office should consider the effect on our young high performance players of bringing in very highly paid FAs while finagling to keep their salaries low."

 

I don't get this comment...you don't think Mookie, Xander, et. al. would appreciate the team making efforts to get better?

 

In terms of playing the games, sure they would. On the other hand if you're someone like JBJ or Xander you might also recognize that the team's ability to give you the extension offer you were hoping for may have just disappeared...

[Nick]

In terms of playing the games, sure they would. On the other hand if you're someone like JBJ or Xander you might also recognize that the team's ability to give you the extension offer you were hoping for may have just disappeared...

 

This is where player's union does not do a very good job fighting for its members.

 

We've already discussed how the team revenue is increasing at much higher rate than the luxury tax thresh hold. Owners are pocketing big chunk of the money.

 

I would like for union to fight for incorporating 'team discount' into luxury tax computation. Here's how this would work.

Whatever team a player qualifies as a 'Rookie', that team becomes his home team.

You then put a cap on Annual Average Salary on that player regardless of actual contract.

So in case of Mookie Betts, Sox signs him to $300M contract over 10 years or average of $30M per year. But because Red Sox is his home team, his contract is valued at say $25M. That $25M number is an artificial number. It can be tied to something similar to how the qualifying offer is computed.

This would give Red Sox a leg up on signing Betts. What does the Union care? It gets what it wants. Overall player salary is going up. Fan base is happy.

 

Or say in case of Sandoval. If a player is released outright, then his contract at the time of the release goes away for the purpose of luxury tax computation for the releasing team. What the hell does union care? Red Sox is now in position to spend additional $20M 'obligation' it just got rid of. Obviously its still on the hook for balance of his contract.

 

I really think Players' Union does not do enough.

Edited November 17, 2017 by Nick

[moonslav59]

Although there are also cases where it's just not realistic for a team to improve, because of impending losses of players to free agency, injuries, financial constraints etc.

 

Also, let us never forget - it's a zero sum game. If some teams are improving it means some teams have to be getting worse.

 

I get it, but teams still "look to" improve, even if they might realize they are getting worse. (Maybe they look to not get even more worse.)

 

I do think the Sox are looking to get better- to have a better opening day roster than last year, at least on paper.

 

We could get better by just having Devers, Price, Wright, Smith and others for a full season, but I think we're going to try to upgrade our clean-up slot in the line-up and/or 1B (which might be the same move).

[moonslav59]

This is where player's union does not do a very good job fighting for its members.

 

We've already discussed how the team revenue is increasing at much higher rate than the luxury tax thresh hold. Owners are pocketing big chunk of the money.

 

I would like for union to fight for incorporating 'team discount' into luxury tax computation. Here's how this would work.

Whatever team a player qualifies as a 'Rookie', that team becomes his home team.

You then put a cap on Annual Average Salary on that player regardless of actual contract.

So in case of Mookie Betts, Sox signs him to $300M contract over 10 years or average of $30M per year. But because Red Sox is his home team, his contract is valued at say $25M. That $25M number is an artificial number. It can be tied to something similar to how the qualifying offer is computed.

This would give Red Sox a leg up on signing Betts. What does the Union care? It gets what it wants. Overall player salary is going up. Fan base is happy.

 

Or say in case of Sandoval. If a player is released outright, then his contract at the time of the release goes away for the purpose of luxury tax computation for the releasing team. What the hell does union care? Red Sox is now in position to spend additional $20M 'obligation' it just got rid of. Obviously its still on the hook for balance of his contract.

 

I really think Players' Union does not do enough.

 

I don't think restricting a player's salary helps the "overall" salaries go up. If they give less to Bogey, it doesn't mean they will give it to JBJ.

 

The highest salaries are what drives the next highest salaries. The next highest drives the next group just below them.

 

Look at arbitration. It keeps players on their team and severely restricts their salary for several years. They often get "rewarded" after the fact by big FA contracts that look like an overpay, but in many cases they were "underpaid" before free agency.

 

This is entertainment. Look what Oprah makes

[Bellhorn04]

This is where player's union does not do a very good job fighting for its members.

 

We've already discussed how the team revenue is increasing at much higher rate than the luxury tax thresh hold. Owners are pocketing big chunk of the money.

 

I would like for union to fight for incorporating 'team discount' into luxury tax computation. Here's how this would work.

Whatever team a player qualifies as a 'Rookie', that team becomes his home team.

You then put a cap on Annual Average Salary on that player regardless of actual contract.

So in case of Mookie Betts, Sox signs him to $300M contract over 10 years or average of $30M per year. But because Red Sox is his home team, his contract is valued at say $25M. That $25M number is an artificial number. It can be tied to something similar to how the qualifying offer is computed.

This would give Red Sox a leg up on signing Betts. What does the Union care? It gets what it wants. Overall player salary is going up. Fan base is happy.

 

Or say in case of Sandoval. If a player is released outright, then his contract at the time of the release goes away for the purpose of luxury tax computation for the releasing team. What the hell does union care? Red Sox is now in position to spend additional $20M 'obligation' it just got rid of. Obviously its still on the hook for balance of his contract.

 

I really think Players' Union does not do enough.

 

I was quite surprised by the relatively small increases in luxury tax thresholds and some of the additional tax threshold-related penalties in the last agreement.

 

It's almost like the owners did a great job convincing the players that the revenue bubble was just about to burst.

[moonslav59]

I was quite surprised by the relatively small increases in luxury tax thresholds and some of the additional tax threshold-related penalties in the last agreement.

 

It's almost like the owners did a great job convincing the players that the revenue bubble was just about to burst.

 

...and you do hear many teams saying they want to reset the luxury tax, like the Sox did this year.

 

[Nick]

I don't think restricting a player's salary helps the "overall" salaries go up. If they give less to Bogey, it doesn't mean they will give it to JBJ.

 

The highest salaries are what drives the next highest salaries. The next highest drives the next group just below them.

 

Look at arbitration. It keeps players on their team and severely restricts their salary for several years. They often get "rewarded" after the fact by big FA contracts that look like an overpay, but in many cases they were "underpaid" before free agency.

 

This is entertainment. Look what Oprah makes

 

Did you read my post at all? Who said anything about 'restricting'. Isn't one reason you're advocating signing Stanton is due to his salary value of $25M? Sox at some point can spend 'savings' on another player for say $5M. Fake money says $30M but in reality players are getting paid $35M ($30M for Stanton and $5M for the other guy).

[moonslav59]

Did you read my post at all? Who said anything about 'restricting'. Isn't one reason you're advocating signing Stanton is due to his salary value of $25M? Sox at some point can spend 'savings' on another player for say $5M. Fake money says $30M but in reality players are getting paid $35M ($30M for Stanton and $5M for the other guy).

 

Sorry. I misread your point. My bad.

[notin]

In terms of playing the games, sure they would. On the other hand if you're someone like JBJ or Xander you might also recognize that the team's ability to give you the extension offer you were hoping for may have just disappeared...

 

If either Bradley or Bogaerts had any interest in an extension, then neither would have hired Scott Boras...

[Nick]

If either Bradley or Bogaerts had any interest in an extension, then neither would have hired Scott Boras...

 

I think they were Scott Boras client from get go. But you are correct. He thinks there's nothing to gain by extending. Of course, he did fail Mr. Drew.

[harmony]

FanGraphs columnist Craig Edwards estimates the payroll space for each MLB team:

 

https://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/an-estimate-of-every-teams-payroll-room/

[bosoxmal]

Is therea hread for trade rumors! I thought that this was that thread. Why foes anyone give a s*** about who makes what. (Maybe they should do it like the Army does. Then give a pension after 22 years.

 

Bottom line: Who will be out 2018 cleanup hitter. I can almost guaratee that by 2020 it will be Devers. But in the meantime????

[oldtimer]

"The front office should consider the effect on our young high performance players of bringing in very highly paid FAs while finagling to keep their salaries low."

 

I don't get this comment...you don't think Mookie, Xander, et. al. would appreciate the team making efforts to get better?

 

That comment was made in relation to how Papi felt when they were playing with him while bringinng in expensive FA for huge contracts. Why not pay the proven player in your system what he's worth before going out and spending like a drunken sailor on questionable talent.

[moonslav59]

I think players understand how the system works. The big pay days come later in their careers.

[jacksonianmarch]

I guess the biggest question here is how much are the sox willing to spend? They’re guaranteed to break the lux tax limit. If they go up to the true upper limit of penalties, that gives them about $40 mil to play with but absolutely no wiggle room in season without offsetting the salaries. That’s significant. And right now, the needs are in a few locations.

 

We’ve heard the sox in on Stanton. Not sure if the deals would need to include big league talent

 

We’ve heard the sox in on JD, but it’s Boras so this isn’t getting resolved soon.

 

Santana is on the radar as is Logan Morrison

 

DD has said outwardly that the team will make smaller adjustments rather than a big splash, but nobody seems to believe him.

 

So, if the sox sign Shaw, LoMo, Nunez and go bargain basement with options for the rotation, that should leave them with some cash to improve the team at the deadline. Would that do? Would the sox even sign Nunez as a Pedroia replacement or use internal candidates to see if he can return? The 2b market is deep this year, so they have some moves to make

[Kimmi]

It's hard to know exactly what the team's needs are. Everyone says we need a power bat, which I can understand, but do we need to go big on that? I think the offense will improve in the power area this season just by our current hitters playing up to expectations. Whether that will be enough is another question.

 

Do we need a replacement for Pedroia or can we use internal options until he returns?

 

Our rotation could be top of the line or it could be mediocre, depending on a lot of factors, mainly health.

 

Because there are a lot of question marks, it might be a good idea not to make that big splash in the offseason, and save our resources for the deadline, when we'll know what the team needs.

 

Once again, I am okay with going mostly status quo on the offense to begin the season.

[Jack Flap]

That comment was made in relation to how Papi felt when they were playing with him while bringinng in expensive FA for huge contracts. Why not pay the proven player in your system what he's worth before going out and spending like a drunken sailor on questionable talent.

 

I guess I just don't have any recollection of Papi ever expressing that he felt that way...he may have griped about his own contracts, sure, but never about adding talent from outside the system. The guy was lobbying for another big bat basically from the day Manny was traded.

 

If we add a Stanton or Martinez this offseason, I can't see any of our young players' reactions being "Oh s***, there goes that extension I wanted...curse you, Desperate Dave!" By and large, players seem to appreciate a front office that is proactively trying to improve rather than sitting on what they already have. As Moon said, these guys know how the system is set up...and I'm willing to bet that in the cases that are now just 2-3 years from free agency (Bogaerts/Betts/Bradley), the sides have already felt out what interest there might be in an extension and what it might take to get it done, and any external acquisitions likely aren't going to be the determining factor in whether that happens or not.

[Bellhorn04]

Papi bellyached about his contracts a couple times, I think. But in the big picture, and considering his contributions to the team, he was no trouble at all in that department.

[oldtimer]

I guess I just don't have any recollection of Papi ever expressing that he felt that way...he may have griped about his own contracts, sure, but never about adding talent from outside the system. The guy was lobbying for another big bat basically from the day Manny was traded.

 

If we add a Stanton or Martinez this offseason, I can't see any of our young players' reactions being "Oh s***, there goes that extension I wanted...curse you, Desperate Dave!" By and large, players seem to appreciate a front office that is proactively trying to improve rather than sitting on what they already have. As Moon said, these guys know how the system is set up...and I'm willing to bet that in the cases that are now just 2-3 years from free agency (Bogaerts/Betts/Bradley), the sides have already felt out what interest there might be in an extension and what it might take to get it done, and any external acquisitions likely aren't going to be the determining factor in whether that happens or not.

 

You can find out a lot about the way Papi felt if you read his book, "Papi-My Story". Thats where I got the reference.

[oldtimer]

Papi bellyached about his contracts a couple times, I think. But in the big picture, and considering his contributions to the team, he was no trouble at all in that department.

 

He said he had constant problems until JH finally said he would get the extension and that he would get paid. So credit JH for keeping him for the last 3 years .

[Jack Flap]

You can find out a lot about the way Papi felt if you read his book, "Papi-My Story". Thats where I got the reference.

 

Fair enough...it's been on my list, but I haven't gotten to it yet.

[oldtimer]

It's hard to know exactly what the team's needs are. Everyone says we need a power bat, which I can understand, but do we need to go big on that? I think the offense will improve in the power area this season just by our current hitters playing up to expectations. Whether that will be enough is another question.

 

Do we need a replacement for Pedroia or can we use internal options until he returns?

 

Our rotation could be top of the line or it could be mediocre, depending on a lot of factors, mainly health.

 

Because there are a lot of question marks, it might be a good idea not to make that big splash in the offseason, and save our resources for the deadline, when we'll know what the team needs.

 

Once again, I am okay with going mostly status quo on the offense to begin the season.

 

There is a distinct possibility that a change in emphasis by the manager and hitting coach could bring additional run production. The question is whether it would be enough to keep us in contention with the top teams. There are some FA's who won't command the huge financial commitments and longer term contracts who might give us the added run production that we need. both Santana and Cozart are available on 3 year contracts for roughly $15 million a year each. Could we get either or both for that matter?

 

As for Pedroia, I have always held him in the highest regard, but saying that it is hard to put him at the top of the depth chart at second as he might well not play until after the AS break. We could fill in for him with a lower potential player for half the season, but will that put us in a hole vs the better teams?

 

A lot will depend on how serious DD is about holding onto his young talent or whether Bogey or JBJ may be made available. Another question to answer is whether the team is considering moving Devers to 1st in the future. I look forward to management moves which will improve the team in the field and also in the pitching staff.

[notin]

That comment was made in relation to how Papi felt when they were playing with him while bringinng in expensive FA for huge contracts. Why not pay the proven player in your system what he's worth before going out and spending like a drunken sailor on questionable talent.

 

Because when you simply extend players on your current roster, fans think of that as simply status quo. And if it didn't work last year.

 

It's when thou go outside roster and spend heavily on proven star big name talent that they get excited.

[moonslav59]

There is a distinct possibility that a change in emphasis by the manager and hitting coach could bring additional run production. The question is whether it would be enough to keep us in contention with the top teams. There are some FA's who won't command the huge financial commitments and longer term contracts who might give us the added run production that we need. both Santana and Cozart are available on 3 year contracts for roughly $15 million a year each. Could we get either or both for that matter?

 

As for Pedroia, I have always held him in the highest regard, but saying that it is hard to put him at the top of the depth chart at second as he might well not play until after the AS break. We could fill in for him with a lower potential player for half the season, but will that put us in a hole vs the better teams?

 

A lot will depend on how serious DD is about holding onto his young talent or whether Bogey or JBJ may be made available. Another question to answer is whether the team is considering moving Devers to 1st in the future. I look forward to management moves which will improve the team in the field and also in the pitching staff.

 

Signing "second level" free agents like Santana and Cozart might be the best plan, if prices get way out of hand for Stanton & JD Martinez.

 

It's hard to imagine how to give everyone enough ABs by signings a 1Bman and shortstop:

 

1B: Santana (HRam)

2B: Bogey then Pedey

SS: Cozart

3B: Devers then Bogey (when Pedey returns)

DH: HRam then Devers (when Pedey returns)

 

I'm not sure jerking Bogey all around is a good idea. I guess we could trade him for a pitcher and then focus on keeping Betts & JBJ with extensions.

 

 

[jacksonianmarch]

There’s a very real possibility that Pedroia doesn’t return in 2018

[moonslav59]

There’s a very real possibility that Pedroia doesn’t return in 2018

 

True, but I'll bet on the chance he returns before expected (mid May).

[oldtimer]

Signing "second level" free agents like Santana and Cozart might be the best plan, if prices get way out of hand for Stanton & JD Martinez.

 

It's hard to imagine how to give everyone enough ABs by signings a 1Bman and shortstop:

 

1B: Santana (HRam)

2B: Bogey then Pedey

SS: Cozart

3B: Devers then Bogey (when Pedey returns)

DH: HRam then Devers (when Pedey returns)

 

I'm not sure jerking Bogey all around is a good idea. I guess we could trade him for a pitcher and then focus on keeping Betts & JBJ with extensions.

 

 

 

A lot will depend on how DD plans to handle his young talent. If there is an intent to move someone, then possibly Santana and Cozart but it will depend on circumstances. There are options, it just depends on the Sox management thinking.