9/2 at Yankees

[Northern Star]

Agree winning is the only metric for managers, including this one. You're in good company if you don't like Farrell. That is the overwhelming consensus on Talksox. I myself have called for his removal. The difference is I don't buy the hyperbole nor the thesis that a big chunk of losses can be charged to specific managerial decisions.

 

And you would be right. That's not to say all 30 teams should keep the same manager year in year out though. They do have some impact on the team and results.

[SoxHop]

Now why is that? Could it be that, while managers do have an important role in any game/season, baseball, far more than other team sports, depends more on the players and that the defining characteristic of a baseball game is the mano a mano confrontation between pitcher and hitter?

 

The Farrell hysteria here is blown WAY THE f*** out of proportion. But, they got their pitchforks and torches out....... let'em have their fun......

 

I think he does some incredibly dumb stuff, I'd like to see a better skipper on board. But, he also handles the squad well enought to look like we are going to win the ALE.

[Northern Star]

 

I think he does some incredibly dumb stuff, I'd like to see a better skipper on board. But, he also handles the squad well enought to look like we are going to win the ALE.

 

And that's about it at this rate.

[SoxHop]

And that's about it at this rate.

 

Did we not just split with Cleveland? And..... I hate to say this after the previous post......... should have won three of four if Kimbrel came in a inning earlier......

 

Houston is scary though after the recent acquisition...

 

We looked better than Cleveland...

[moonslav59]

"near totally void of any basic fundamental skills, and many of our losses can be tied to bonehead plays on defense, the base paths and elsewhere" is in my opinion unsupportable, especially the "tied to many of our losses" part.

 

As I have now said ad nauseum, to me the dominant fundamentals of baseball are hitting and pitching, and not a single player on this team can say he has not been coached on those fundamentals, not only here, but all the way back to age 10 or whenever. But coaching don't always produce the desired outcome because those two skills depend so heavily on the individual's innate skill and determination to improve. Defense is a fundamental, I certainly agree, but frankly don't see the lack of coaching.

 

Baseball to me is unique among major American team sports in that it requires an extensive apprenticeship and several levels of professional competition before even getting to the majors. That especially applies to hitting and pitching, but also to defense. And baserunning.

 

MLB teams are also unique in playing 162 games a year, and before every single one of those games hitting and defensive skills are practiced and practiced. Pitchers have to be careful of how much they pitch before games and in between games, but it's a certainty those sessions are carefully monitored and coached--to say nothing of video replays. No other major team sports practices remotely as much as MLB. There is no way, no how these players are not told, coached, instructed, videotaped, etc in those three fundamentals to a degree that boggles the mind.

 

In fact, my own theory is that lapses occur in part because the season is so darn long and the games so interminable. You can normally show every single play in a single game--but not all of the pitches-- in about 10 minutes, but it lasts 3.5 hours or so on average, and that time is dominated by the kabuki dances of pitcher and hitter mixed in with periodic meetings with catcher, coach, manager, and the odd infielder--all of whom have no interest in speeding up the game.

 

Certainly we've won and lost more games due to hitting and pitching, but quite honestly, I've never seen a Sox team make so many mental mistakes. Maybe, we'll offset those mistakes enough to still win, but I just get a sneaky feeling we are heading towards losing a series based on a colossal bonehead play.

 

Many will say, it was a fitting way to end the season.

 

No game is ever truly "lost" on one play, but IMO, we're pushing our luck.

[moonslav59]

The Farrell hysteria here is blown WAY THE f*** out of proportion. But, they got their pitchforks and torches out....... let'em have their fun......

 

I think he does some incredibly dumb stuff, I'd like to see a better skipper on board. But, he also handles the squad well enought to look like we are going to win the ALE.

 

Just to be clear, as much and as long as I have disliked JF, now is not the time to can his ass.

[Maxbialystock]

And you would be right. That's not to say all 30 teams should keep the same manager year in year out though. They do have some impact on the team and results.

 

I agree. More than that I believe the manager goes when the FO believes the team has underperformed in their judgment. That's usually because of wins and losses but not always.

[Northern Star]

What this series needs is a massive, all-out brawl.

[Maxbialystock]

Certainly we've won and lost more games due to hitting and pitching, but quite honestly, I've never seen a Sox team make so many mental mistakes. Maybe, we'll offset those mistakes enough to still win, but I just get a sneaky feeling we are heading towards losing a series based on a colossal bonehead play.

 

Many will say, it was a fitting way to end the season

 

No game is ever truly "lost" on one play, but IMO, we're pushing our luck.

 

If the Sox lose the ALDS because of bonehead plays, you will not see me defending Farrell.

[jad]

One thing that all message boards I've seen have in common is contempt for the present manager/coach (I assume, but don't know, that the Patriots and Warriors might be exceptions). Has anyone checked this?

[Maxbialystock]

Just to be clear, as much and as long as I have disliked JF, now is not the time to can his ass.

 

Agree. He gets September and October. Nothing beyond that should be guaranteed. We lost Ortiz which is no ones fault. But DD brought in some pretty good reinforcements and dumped Pablo. I don't like the hitting, but DD can't fix everything especially if the salary cap is a factor. I blame him for Price so far, but also think that could have been better than it has so far. Devers and Beni were not traded away a real plus.

[Maxbialystock]

Sale tomorrow. Sox are still very much in charge of their own destiny.

[Maxbialystock]

One thing that all message boards I've seen have in common is contempt for the present manager/coach (I assume, but don't know, that the Patriots and Warriors might be exceptions). Has anyone checked this?

 

BDM almost always called Francona Francoma. Every loss could somehow be attributed to something he did. Universal applause when his contract was not renewed. Valentine lost BDM in spring training, but they were probably right.

[moonslav59]

If the Sox lose the ALDS because of bonehead plays, you will not see me defending Farrell.

 

I'm certainly hoping it does not happen, but it's happened so often, many times twice or more in one game, I'm not sure why it will take a high profile screw up to convince some of JF's significant role in our severe lack of fundamentals.

 

He's done a fine job with our staff, especially our pen. I've complained about his line-up construction, like Holt leading off 5 times, but that is not enough to convince me he has an overall negative impact on this team.

 

Managers can't control every aspect of play on the field. I have no issues with physical mistakes and errors. I have no issues with controlled aggressive base running.

 

I do have serious issues with players forgetting how many outs there are, throwing to the wrong base, holding onto the ball when a quick decisive throw is needed, running to third on a ground ball in front of you, missing hit and run signs, making the first or 3rd out at 3B, and much more I have forgotten about but know they've done.

 

Every year, this team and others make these mistakes, but we've had an epidemic of epic proportions. Juts because many have not led to losses does not mean they did not occur or don't count. It's a reflection on JF, and it shouldn't have to take an epic bonehead mistake to see that JF is a liability.

 

Please, please, please do not lose this season on a blunder... and I'm not talking a physical mistake like Bill Buckner's (although the manager should have pulled him).

 

[Maxbialystock]

Let me say too that talksox is a terrific blog site and I truly appreciate the insights of everyone who wants Farrell gone or just can't stand him. A year ago I thought all the informal rules were stupid, but they work. This site is largely self-policing. The game threads are astonishingly restrained even though we all vent sometimes and the post game stuff is often far-ranging and insightful.

[moonslav59]

BDM almost always called Francona Francoma. Every loss could somehow be attributed to something he did. Universal applause when his contract was not renewed. Valentine lost BDM in spring training, but they were probably right.

 

I felt TF lost control of the team, but he was never an idiot. I wasn't happy they let him go. I knew he was a good manager, but I understood why he needed to go.

 

This is different.

[Maxbialystock]

I'm certainly hoping it does not happen, but it's happened so often, many times twice or more in one game, I'm not sure why it will take a high profile screw up to convince some of JF's significant role in our severe lack of fundamentals.

 

He's done a fine job with our staff, especially our pen. I've complained about his line-up construction, like Holt leading off 5 times, but that is not enough to convince me he has an overall negative impact on this team.

 

Managers can't control every aspect of play on the field. I have no issues with physical mistakes and errors. I have no issues with controlled aggressive base running.

 

I do have serious issues with players forgetting how many outs there are, throwing to the wrong base, holding onto the ball when a quick decisive throw is needed, running to third on a ground ball in front of you, missing hit and run signs, making the first or 3rd out at 3B, and much more I have forgotten about but know they've done.

 

Every year, this team and others make these mistakes, but we've had an epidemic of epic proportions. Juts because many have not led to losses does not mean they did not occur or don't count. It's a reflection on JF, and it shouldn't have to take an epic bonehead mistake to see that JF is a liability.

 

Please, please, please do not lose this season on a blunder... and I'm not talking a physical mistake like Bill Buckner's (although the manager should have pulled him).

 

 

Don't forget pitchers not covering 1b quickly on any grounder to the right. That's inexcusable and it happens with a few. I do not think really bonehead plays can't cost us a game and hope I will say so when it happens.

[moonslav59]

Don't forget pitchers not covering 1b quickly on any grounder to the right. That's inexcusable and it happens with a few. I do not think really bonehead plays can't cost us a game and hope I will say so when it happens.

 

Fair enough.

 

We are still good enough to overcome mistakes, but the playoff teams we will be facing will be looking to exploit anything we give them.

[SoxHop]

I'm certainly hoping it does not happen, but it's happened so often, many times twice or more in one game, I'm not sure why it will take a high profile screw up to convince some of JF's significant role in our severe lack of fundamentals.

 

He's done a fine job with our staff, especially our pen. I've complained about his line-up construction, like Holt leading off 5 times, but that is not enough to convince me he has an overall negative impact on this team.

 

Managers can't control every aspect of play on the field. I have no issues with physical mistakes and errors. I have no issues with controlled aggressive base running.

 

I do have serious issues with players forgetting how many outs there are, throwing to the wrong base, holding onto the ball when a quick decisive throw is needed, running to third on a ground ball in front of you, missing hit and run signs, making the first or 3rd out at 3B, and much more I have forgotten about but know they've done.

 

Every year, this team and others make these mistakes, but we've had an epidemic of epic proportions. Juts because many have not led to losses does not mean they did not occur or don't count. It's a reflection on JF, and it shouldn't have to take an epic bonehead mistake to see that JF is a liability.

 

Please, please, please do not lose this season on a blunder... and I'm not talking a physical mistake like Bill Buckner's (although the manager should have pulled him).

 

 

This is very well said Moon. And I can't agree more. I don't think he is the anti-christ like we have seen on this board, but yea. We could do better.

 

If he f***s up the playoffs......... he'll be run out of town...

[Maxbialystock]

I felt TF lost control of the team, but he was never an idiot. I wasn't happy they let him go. I knew he was a good manager, but I understood why he needed to go.

 

This is different.

 

Than you are better than I. After that September 2011 collapse and even though I steadfastly defended Francona throughout the season, I was fine with the dismissal. Heck, I was even dumb enough to think Valentine would work out. I'm a vet and a service brat, and to me the meaning of the Caine Mutiny is that you back the captain even when he clearly has issues (Queeg was paranoid, which I would suggest all MLB managers need to guard against becoming).

[S5Dewey]

Than you are better than I. After that September 2011 collapse and even though I steadfastly defended Francona throughout the season, I was fine with the dismissal. Heck, I was even dumb enough to think Valentine would work out. I'm a vet and a service brat, and to me the meaning of the Caine Mutiny is that you back the captain even when he clearly has issues.

 

That's all very true, but so is the old adage that "You can't fire all 25 players". Like it or not, sometimes that's why the manager goes.

[Bellhorn04]

Than you are better than I. After that September 2011 collapse and even though I steadfastly defended Francona throughout the season, I was fine with the dismissal. Heck, I was even dumb enough to think Valentine would work out. I'm a vet and a service brat, and to me the meaning of the Caine Mutiny is that you back the captain even when he clearly has issues (Queeg was paranoid, which I would suggest all MLB managers need to guard against becoming).

 

My philosophy is much the same, though I tend to think of it in the same terms as that popular song from the hippie days: 'Love the one you're with.' The only real exception to that was Valentine, who was obviously batshit crazy almost from the outset.

[SoxHop]

My philosophy is much the same, though I tend to think of it in the same terms as that popular song from the hippie days: 'Love the one you're with.' The only real exception to that was Valentine, who was obviously batshit crazy almost from the outset.

 

Truer words were never spoken about Valentine

[OH FOY]

Giving teams extra outs in the Play-offs is like playing Russian Roulette. Fundamentals is huge. It always bites you in the ass, always. I say in every sport, brains wins (or losses) a lot of games.

[moonslav59]

I wish we could have just kept JF as our pitching coach, but the Jays messed that all up.

[Kimmi]

My philosophy is much the same, though I tend to think of it in the same terms as that popular song from the hippie days: 'Love the one you're with.' The only real exception to that was Valentine, who was obviously batshit crazy almost from the outset.

 

I honestly believe that if Francona had stayed, we would have made the playoffs in 2012. The players would have rallied around him.

 

Valentine was never the answer to Francona 'losing the clubhouse', which IMO, was overblown to begin with.

[Kimmi]

I wish we could have just kept JF as our pitching coach, but the Jays messed that all up.

 

I loved Farrell as our pitching coach. IMO, that is the perfect role for him.

[moonslav59]

I honestly believe that if Francona had stayed, we would have made the playoffs in 2012. The players would have rallied around him.

 

Valentine was never the answer to Francona 'losing the clubhouse', which IMO, was overblown to begin with.

 

It was a country club; it was the inmates running the asylum...any analogy you choose, Tito had lost control.

 

Tito had some severe personal issues going on. I've never been a Tito hater. He's a very good manager, but sometimes the conditions warrant a change regardless of the fact that Tito was never an imbecile like JF (and Bobby V) has been.

[moonslav59]

Giving teams extra outs in the Play-offs is like playing Russian Roulette. Fundamentals is huge. It always bites you in the ass, always. I say in every sport, brains wins (or losses) a lot of games.

 

Well said. Good teams can get away with giving extra outs vs bad teams, but teams like the Guardians, Astros and Dodgers are going to pounce when given the chance.

[Kimmi]

It was a country club; it was the inmates running the asylum...any analogy you choose, Tito had lost control.

 

Tito had some severe personal issues going on. I've never been a Tito hater. He's a very good manager, but sometimes the conditions warrant a change regardless of the fact that Tito was never an imbecile like JF (and Bobby V) has been.

 

It was a 'country club' in 2004 and in 2007 and in every other year that Tito managed the Sox. That's the way Tito ran the ship.

 

Perhaps it was a little more so in 2011 due to Francona's personal issues, but the point stands that the whole idea, starting with Chicken and Beer, was overblown. The only difference with the clubhouse in 2011 and all the other years was the collapse in 2011, which was due to our pitching, not due to Francona losing the clubhouse. Had we made it to the playoffs that year, nothing would have been said.