A Realistic View at 2017 Part III

[Spudboy]

There was no reason to keep him out there, even for the 7th inning, let alone the 8th.

 

I would have pulled him after 6 but I can see why they didn't.

[moonslav59]

I would have pulled him after 6 but I can see why they didn't.

 

I "can see" why they started him, but why not use a game like that to give him even more rest than just tomorrow off day pushing his next start back a day?

 

I know the O's can score a lot quickly, but have some faith in our pen. It's been very good all year.

[oldtimer]

There was no reason to keep him out there, even for the 7th inning, let alone the 8th.

 

Just one reason. Get to 300 strike outs.

[cp176]

Just one reason. Get to 300 strike outs.

 

I'm thinking that there was more than one conversation with JF and Mr. Sale before he came out of that dugout in both the 7th and 8th innings. I'm just thinking that I have criticized JF numerous times for putting out what I thought were very weak lineups in an effort to rest guys. It is his history. He never has been a manager who has taken many risks at all when it comes to players and their rest and health in general. The spots on that old leopard aren't changing folks. I'm sure that sending Sale back out there wasn't an easy decision. It is over. A 99 mph fastball in the 8th! I think that he was ok.

[moonslav59]

Just one reason. Get to 300 strike outs.

 

Worst reason of all.

[moonslav59]

I'm thinking that there was more than one conversation with JF and Mr. Sale before he came out of that dugout in both the 7th and 8th innings. I'm just thinking that I have criticized JF numerous times for putting out what I thought were very weak lineups in an effort to rest guys. It is his history. He never has been a manager who has taken many risks at all when it comes to players and their rest and health in general. The spots on that old leopard aren't changing folks. I'm sure that sending Sale back out there wasn't an easy decision. It is over. A 99 mph fastball in the 8th! I think that he was ok.

 

You're missing the point. It's the managers job to make the call. Sure, get some input in a 1-0 game to see if your starter stqill has some juice left, but this game was over, and we risked burning out our ace, who had struggled in 5 of his previous 9 starts (24 ER in 25 IP) for what?

 

3 freakin hundred!

[cp176]

You're missing the point. It's the managers job to make the call. Sure, get some input in a 1-0 game to see if your starter stqill has some juice left, but this game was over, and we risked burning out our ace, who had struggled in 5 of his previous 9 starts (24 ER in 25 IP) for what?

 

3 freakin hundred!

 

trust me on this - you are wrong - I get your point!

Edited September 21, 2017 by cp176
need to add

[moonslav59]

trust me on this - you are wrong - I get your point!

 

I get your point, too, but to me, if the reason was "300" it's slam dunk wrong.

[cp176]

trust me on this - you are wrong - I get your point!

 

 

I clearly get your point. It is a good point. I just don't necessarily agree with you.

[S5Dewey]

You're missing the point. It's the managers job to make the call. Sure, get some input in a 1-0 game to see if your starter stqill has some juice left, but this game was over, and we risked burning out our ace, who had struggled in 5 of his previous 9 starts (24 ER in 25 IP) for what?

 

3 freakin hundred!

 

300, which he would have gotten in his next start anyway.

 

If that truly was Sale's call and he persuaded JF to leave him in it reminds me of a certain conversation between Pedro and Grady Little. It's the manager's job to make the decision and take the credit - or the blame - for it. The goal is not to win a particular game. The goal is to win the World Series - or in this case win the division.

 

Were it up to me I'd have pulled Sale after 5 innings - just enough for the "W", but that's neither here nor there.

[cp176]

I get your point, too, but to me, if the reason was "300" it's slam dunk wrong.

 

 

Now wait - we need to end this little arguement now I think . Never have I said that I think that Sale should have gone back out there just to get to number 300. That was going to come regardless. If I had been the manager I would have yanked him at the end of 7. My primary point is pretty much that if anyone thinks that an obviously heathy and still obviously strong Chris Sale was risking injury and future fatigue if we did get to the playoffs , I'm thinking that they are wrong and are being just a bit overly cautious. Let's just see how it plays out ok. I won't be the one playing the hindsight game. I think that this team will over achieve if they make the playoffs. Suggesting that I might not get your point sort of suggests that you might be condescending just a bit. We have done this dance before.

[moonslav59]

Now wait - we need to end this little arguement now I think . Never have I said that I think that Sale should have gone back out there just to get to number 300. That was going to come regardless. If I had been the manager I would have yanked him at the end of 7. My primary point is pretty much that if anyone thinks that an obviously heathy and still obviously strong Chris Sale was risking injury and future fatigue if we did get to the playoffs , I'm thinking that they are wrong and are being just a bit overly cautious. Let's just see how it plays out ok. I won't be the one playing the hindsight game. I think that this team will over achieve if they make the playoffs. Suggesting that I might not get your point sort of suggests that you might be condescending just a bit. We have done this dance before.

 

Well, you responded to my response about him pitching 8 innings to get to 300. I even ended the post with "3 freakin; hundred!"

 

Personally, I wouldn't have even started him last night. I'd have spread out his last 2 starts by taking away one of his last 3 starts.

 

I certainly would have yanked him after 5 or 6. & was pushing it. 8 was way wrong.

 

I'm not worried injury, per se, but he has a long history of struggling in September. It may or may not be related to fatigue or a lack of endurance/stamina, but certainly it could be.

 

The fact that sale was lights out over his first 20 starts, then had bad starts in 5 of 9 starts. That concerns me and should concern everyone.

 

Is that concern enough to add to the risk of not winning the division? Maybe- maybe not.

 

Yanking him after 5 or 6 or 7 last night had virtually no affect on the odds of winning the division. The only possible odds it affected are Sale fatiguing or burning out odds.

 

Wrong choice. Obvious, to me.

 

[Kimmi]

Nice win.

 

I wouldn't have given Sale 8 innings, but I guess that's just me.

 

Nice to see the offense show signs of life as we near crunch time.

 

I was okay with Farrell leaving Sale in the game, but I can definitely see that argument for pulling him after 5 or 6 innings.

[Kimmi]

There was no reason to keep him out there, even for the 7th inning, let alone the 8th.

 

Personally, I really think there were some good "human element" reasons to leave him out there. Sale does not seem like the type of guy who needs it, but going 8 strong innings after some so-so to rough outings has to feel good. Let him sit on that kind of an outing as we near the playoffs.

[Bellhorn04]

I'm thinking that there was more than one conversation with JF and Mr. Sale before he came out of that dugout in both the 7th and 8th innings. I'm just thinking that I have criticized JF numerous times for putting out what I thought were very weak lineups in an effort to rest guys. It is his history. He never has been a manager who has taken many risks at all when it comes to players and their rest and health in general. The spots on that old leopard aren't changing folks. I'm sure that sending Sale back out there wasn't an easy decision. It is over. A 99 mph fastball in the 8th! I think that he was ok.

 

I agree with you, I think there was probably some ongoing discussions between the two.

[Kimmi]

I "can see" why they started him, but why not use a game like that to give him even more rest than just tomorrow off day pushing his next start back a day?

 

I know the O's can score a lot quickly, but have some faith in our pen. It's been very good all year.

 

The pen has been very good all year, but they could use the rest too. I know we have other guys in the pen who can pitch 'mop up', but as you said, the Os can score a lot quickly. I'm okay with the decision to leave him in.

[SoxHop]

I thought Farrell, said he was hopeing to get Price in the game. I would think the more games they get a look at Price to see what they have with him would be valuable info on when and how to use Price in the playoffs. I have no idea if him not getting into the game affects anything.

 

I also think they should have saved the 300th for when they were playing in Boston. But...... Sale is going after Pedro's record now, I wouldn't want to deny him that.

[Slasher9]

[moonslav59]

Sox positional rankings by WAR

 

4th RF 4.7

13th SS 2.5

16th 2B 2.4

17th C 1.7

10th out of 15 DH -0.7

21st CF 2.4

21st LF 1.6

22nd 1B 1.1

28th 3B 0.5

 

The OF as a whole ranks 9th at 9.3.

 

 

[SoxnCycles]

[ATTACH=CONFIG]546[/ATTACH]

 

Nice!

 

Wait... that didn't end well for ol' Leonidas!

[Nick]

Sox positional rankings by WAR

 

4th RF 4.7

13th SS 2.5

16th 2B 2.4

17th C 1.7

10th out of 15 DH -0.7

21st CF 2.4

21st LF 1.6

22nd 1B 1.1

28th 3B 0.5

 

The OF as a whole ranks 9th at 9.3.

 

 

 

It's amazing that we're 3 games up, especially with Price not being able to pitch and Porcello being downright ugly for most of the year. We're dead in waters without DD picking up Kimbrel, Pom and Sale.

 

Our offense as a group surely can't do any worse in 2018. As much as I've ragged on Betts and Xander, they are still our 1/2 punch it seems. Little disappointed in Beni. I think you and I and everyone else thought he'd give us much more production out of left. Only thing I can conclude is that there are several good left fielders. But we do need some cheap options and Beni and Devers are it.

 

I would be okay with trading for another ace type pitcher. Give up the farm if we have to. Look what Sale has done for us.

[Emp9]

It's amazing that we're 3 games up, especially with Price not being able to pitch and Porcello being downright ugly for most of the year. We're dead in waters without DD picking up Kimbrel, Pom and Sale.

 

Our offense as a group surely can't do any worse in 2018. As much as I've ragged on Betts and Xander, they are still our 1/2 punch it seems. Little disappointed in Beni. I think you and I and everyone else thought he'd give us much more production out of left. Only thing I can conclude is that there are several good left fielders. But we do need some cheap options and Beni and Devers are it.

 

I would be okay with trading for another ace type pitcher. Give up the farm if we have to. Look what Sale has done for us.

 

Really? I think Beni (at age 22) is having a fine rookie year. What more were you expecting? Honestly, I'm just curious.

[Bellhorn04]

Beni's WAR is 2.5. Pretty good for a rook. Our LF WAR is dragged down by Young and whoever else was out there this year.

[Nick]

Really? I think Beni (at age 22) is having a fine rookie year. What more were you expecting? Honestly, I'm just curious.

 

Little disappointed in Beni. I think you and I and everyone else thought he'd give us much more production out of left. Only thing I can conclude is that there are several good left fielders. But we do need some cheap options and Beni and Devers are it.

 

I guess you missed the part where I said "only thing I can conclude is that there are several good left fielders". Maybe I should have dug deeper into Moon's numbers. What to think when you are presented with a ranking of #21 out of #30?

[Emp9]

Beni's WAR is 2.5. Pretty good for a rook. Our LF WAR is dragged down by Young and whoever else was out there this year.

 

Other than Beni's Outs-on-Base, which I also attribute that to him being a rookie and a being on a flawed team that's over-compensating for their lack of power (in a nutshell), every other aspect of his game seems to be in line with what I expected. His stats are there for me.

[Nick]

Beni's WAR is 2.5. Pretty good for a rook. Our LF WAR is dragged down by Young and whoever else was out there this year.

 

Well hell, Moon didn't give me all the f***ing details! It's his f***ing fault!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Emp9]

Little disappointed in Beni. I think you and I and everyone else thought he'd give us much more production out of left. Only thing I can conclude is that there are several good left fielders. But we do need some cheap options and Beni and Devers are it.

 

I guess you missed the part where I said "only thing I can conclude is that there are several good left fielders". Maybe I should have dug deeper into Moon's numbers. What to think when you are presented with a ranking of #21 out of #30?

 

That could be it. You're comparing him to every other LFer in the league and I'm simply looking at him as a rookie, most likely going 20-20 .280/.350/.800, which is very close to what i was expecting from him coming in to this season. Either way, I don't think XB is the 2nd half of that 1-2 punch you were talking about. XB hasn't come close to what Beni has done this year.

[Nick]

That could be it. You're comparing him to every other LFer in the league and I'm simply looking at him as a rookie, most likely going 20-20 .280/.350/.800, which is very close to what i was expecting from him coming in to this season. Either way, I don't think XB is the 2nd half of that 1-2 punch you were talking about. XB hasn't come close to what Beni has done this year.

 

You are right........rankings threw me off.

[Bellhorn04]

Well hell, Moon didn't give me all the f***ing details! It's his f***ing fault!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

You ALWAYS have to be careful with moon's data.

[moonslav59]

It's amazing that we're 3 games up, especially with Price not being able to pitch and Porcello being downright ugly for most of the year. We're dead in waters without DD picking up Kimbrel, Pom and Sale.

 

Our offense as a group surely can't do any worse in 2018. As much as I've ragged on Betts and Xander, they are still our 1/2 punch it seems. Little disappointed in Beni. I think you and I and everyone else thought he'd give us much more production out of left. Only thing I can conclude is that there are several good left fielders. But we do need some cheap options and Beni and Devers are it.

 

I would be okay with trading for another ace type pitcher. Give up the farm if we have to. Look what Sale has done for us.

 

I'm always okay with getting an (another) ace.

 

I do think getting a clean-up hitter is the number one priority. I think Price might be that ace we "acquire", or Porcello might go 2016 on us again.

 

It amazes me that Quintana and Gray were dealt shortly after Sale. It's not often 3 aces are dealt within a few months of each other.