Farrell

[mvp 78]

Well, you could be Mike Matheny who gives up on his closer with a one run lead and a guy on first. Rosenthal deserved to close that out. Mixing and matching late left last years MVP runner up walking off vs a far inferior pitcher

 

His velo was down to 93-94. He usually pitches 98-99. Cards fans think something is wrong with him.

[Maxbialystock]

If JBJ was thrown out at the plate, maybe more would be jumping on the "JF must go" bandwagon.

 

Ah, but he wasn't, was he? the mlb.com backstory is that JBJ had gone to Butterfield and asked him for a go signal if Nunez or Betts hit something "off the wall."

 

Yes, the throw beat the runner, but we all keep forgetting that the catcher/fielder not only has to catch that throw, but also tag the baserunner. These become even harder when the runner is coming at you full steam and the entire game is on the line. I would argue strongly that those two imperatives--catch the ball securely and make the tag, which meant bring the ball from the right side of his body to the far left side--put a lot of pressure on Molina. Molina, I might add, was not charged with an error.

 

I think this kind of play is where you and I part company. You call it foolhardy if not boneheaded, and I call it great baseball.

Edited August 17, 2017 by Maxbialystock

[mvp 78]

Ah, but he wasn't, was he? the mlb.com backstory is that JBJ had gone to Butterfield and asked him for a go signal if Nunez or Betts hit something "off the wall."

 

Yes, the throw beat the runner, but we all keep forgetting that the catcher/fielder not only has to catch that throw, but also tag the baserunner. These become even harder when the runner is coming at you full steam and the entire game is on the line. I would argue strongly that those two imperatives--catch the ball securely and make the tag, which meant bring the ball from the right side of his body to the far left side--put a lot of pressure on Molina. Molina, I might add, was not charged with an error.

 

I think this kind of play is where you and I part company. You call it foolhardy if not boneheaded, and I call it great baseball.

 

It makes more sense to do it for the winning run rather than the tying run. Even if he's thrown out, it still goes to extras and the Cards had blown through that pen in one inning.

[OH FOY]

I'm not getting rid of JBJ, he's gotten a lot of key hits in critical situations this year. He is hitting .276 with RISP this year, that's good, with great Defense, I'll take it. Also hitting .292 with Runners on base. Fantastic, keep the line moving.

Everybody remembers Devers HR against Chapman, but JBJ drove in the 1st run with 2 outs, when nobody did anything against Montgomery.

I'm at the point I like seeing JBJ in tough parts of game at bat. 2 years ago I never would have said this.

Edited August 17, 2017 by OH FOY!

[Maxbialystock]

It makes more sense to do it for the winning run rather than the tying run. Even if he's thrown out, it still goes to extras and the Cards had blown through that pen in one inning.

 

On more reason to try it is that, while Beni was on deck and hot, the Cardinals would have walked him to get to HanRam for the third out.

[mvp 78]

On more reason to try it is that, while Beni was on deck and hot, the Cardinals would have walked him to get to HanRam for the third out.

 

The TS reverse mojo has worked on Betts, Beni and XBo so far. Can we really rip into Hanley over the next few days so that his bat wakes up a little?

[Slasher9]

It was Holt or Leon, period. Holt is faster, about even in OBP with Leon, and a better bunter. You are free to disagree with the decision, of course, but it was hardly horrific.

 

actually there is a 3rd option. holt could have pinch run for Moreland and CY could have hit in that spot.

as for the bunting...why swing at strike 1 and then attempt bunt at strike 2????

[Bellhorn04]

actually there is a 3rd option. holt could have pinch run for Moreland and CY could have hit in that spot.

as for the bunting...why swing at strike 1 and then attempt bunt at strike 2????

 

I confess I didn't see the play live, but there are a couple of possibilities: 1) hit and run was on on the swing; 2) 'crossing up the defense'.

 

I have certainly seen numerous occasions where the bunt is put on and then taken off or vice versa.

[Slasher9]

the runner wasn't going on the swinging strike 1.

the defense was playing bunt but wasnt selling out on the stirke 1 swing. that said, in the million games of baseball i have watched i cannot recall a single time that the infield charged for a bunt and the batter slapped a single through.

if the bunt was attempted for the first strike and then taken off i would deem that as almost acceptable. but it was the other way around. did JF really think holt was going to ambush a pitch? again...either have him bunt full commit...or CY should have been the batter and holt should have been the runner.

[oldtimer]

I'm not getting rid of JBJ, he's gotten a lot of key hits in critical situations this year. He is hitting .276 with RISP this year, that's good, with great Defense, I'll take it. Also hitting .292 with Runners on base. Fantastic, keep the line moving.

Everybody remembers Devers HR against Chapman, but JBJ drove in the 1st run with 2 outs, when nobody did anything against Montgomery.

I'm at the point I like seeing JBJ in tough parts of game at bat. 2 years ago I never would have said this.

 

It may come down to who we can keep of the young talented players we have. We have to deal with JBJ, Betts and Bogey and we may have to choose if the contracts get too ridiculous. Replacing JBJ's contribution would not be easy and Beni is not the defensive player that JBJ is. Betts is a lock so if there is a choice it may come down to Bogey vs JBJ.

[Kimmi]

If JBJ was thrown out at the plate, maybe more would be jumping on the "JF must go" bandwagon.

 

People (not named Kimmi) would have been complaining about yet another stupid out on the bases, but it would have taken a near perfect relay and play at the plate to get him. Even if Molina had caught the ball, it's iffy as to whether he would have tagged JBJ. It's called aggressive base running. Sometimes you win and sometimes you lose. As I've posted many times, we have won more than we've lost.

[Kimmi]

Pinch hitting Holt there was questionable but hardly horrific. He put up a decent 8 pitch at-bat which may have contributed to what followed.

 

It was Holt or Leon, period. Holt is faster, about even in OBP with Leon, and a better bunter. You are free to disagree with the decision, of course, but it was hardly horrific.

 

Yup.

[Kimmi]

I'm not getting rid of JBJ, he's gotten a lot of key hits in critical situations this year. He is hitting .276 with RISP this year, that's good, with great Defense, I'll take it. Also hitting .292 with Runners on base. Fantastic, keep the line moving.

Everybody remembers Devers HR against Chapman, but JBJ drove in the 1st run with 2 outs, when nobody did anything against Montgomery.

I'm at the point I like seeing JBJ in tough parts of game at bat. 2 years ago I never would have said this.

 

Good post.

[Kimmi]

BTW, did anyone catch Farrell's reaction with Butterfield after the walk off last night?

 

He was pumped. Good stuff.

[cp176]

On more reason to try it is that, while Beni was on deck and hot, the Cardinals would have walked him to get to HanRam for the third out.

 

It was an aggressive running play on the bases that was the right play. Big difference between stupid and being aggressive. Aggressive includes things like stealing bases and hit and runs as well. Whether you happen to like and appreciate this type of baseball, personally I think it is a must for a team that has hit like ours has. They are going to run into some outs along the way but to not use the speed that we have and wait for more base hits, would be a crime.

[mvp 78]

It was an aggressive running play on the bases that was the right play. Big difference between stupid and being aggressive. Aggressive includes things like stealing bases and hit and runs as well. Whether you happen to like and appreciate this type of baseball, personally I think it is a must for a team that has hit like ours has. They are going to run into some outs along the way but to not use the speed that we have and wait for more base hits, would be a crime.

 

Right. Winning a game with an aggressive baserunning play doesn't make up for getting thrown out by 10 ft, triple plays or other nonsense we've seen. Aggressive running is fine. Stupid running is stupid.

[cp176]

Right. Winning a game with an aggressive baserunning play doesn't make up for getting thrown out by 10 ft, triple plays or other nonsense we've seen. Aggressive running is fine. Stupid running is stupid.

 

What do you think though - i bet we could have one hell of a debate on here over what separates stupid from aggressive?

[S5Dewey]

BTW, did anyone catch Farrell's reaction with Butterfield after the walk off last night?

 

He was pumped. Good stuff.

 

If I can read lips at all what he said was what Pedey's reaction is to anything good. "f*** YEAH!!"

[mvp 78]

What do you think though - i bet we could have one hell of a debate on here over what separates stupid from aggressive?

 

Running from 1st to home on a game winning run that is at best a bang bang play is aggressive. Hanley trying to stretch everything into a double is stupid. The triple play was stupid baserunning. JBJ getting doubled up on a ball hit to the wall is stupid.

[Kimmi]

If I can read lips at all what he said was what Pedey's reaction is to anything good. "f*** YEAH!!"

 

Yup! The F word was definitely in there!

[cp176]

Running from 1st to home on a game winning run that is at best a bang bang play is aggressive. Hanley trying to stretch everything into a double is stupid. The triple play was stupid baserunning. JBJ getting doubled up on a ball hit to the wall is stupid.

 

I'll add - getting thrown out at third when a groundball is hit to short in front of you is stupid. Getting picked off a base because you aren't paying attention is stupid. Forgetting how many outs there are - yup stupid. Plenty more.

[Kimmi]

Running from 1st to home on a game winning run that is at best a bang bang play is aggressive. Hanley trying to stretch everything into a double is stupid. The triple play was stupid baserunning. JBJ getting doubled up on a ball hit to the wall is stupid.

 

There are some stupid base running plays being made. No one is denying that, nor that there is a difference between stupid (forgetting how many outs there are) and aggressive. However, there are a lot of plays that were not stupid but merely aggressive where the runner was out. And what is the reaction in the game thread? "Another stupid base running out!"

 

My point is that not every out made on the bases is stupid.

[mvp 78]

I'll add - getting thrown out at third when a groundball is hit to short in front of you is stupid. Getting picked off a base because you aren't paying attention is stupid. Forgetting how many outs there are - yup stupid. Plenty more.

 

Yeah, that's a bad one too.

[mvp 78]

There are some stupid base running plays being made. No one is denying that, nor that there is a difference between stupid (forgetting how many outs there are) and aggressive. However, there are a lot of plays that were not stupid but merely aggressive where the runner was out. And what is the reaction in the game thread? "Another stupid base running out!"

 

My point is that not every out made on the bases is stupid.

 

Who cares what the reaction in the gamethreads are? It's easy to read those 10 hours later and complain about a post.

 

No one is saying that all outs on the bases are stupid. Stupid outs are stupid.

 

Posters have complained about Farrell teams running the bases poorly for many years on year. This year, there are a ton of prime examples. If the organizational philosophy is to be aggressive, great. I just want the organizational philosophy to also be "don't run the bases like an idiot."

[Kimmi]

Who cares what the reaction in the gamethreads are? It's easy to read those 10 hours later and complain about a post.

 

No one is saying that all outs on the bases are stupid. Stupid outs are stupid.

 

Posters have complained about Farrell teams running the bases poorly for many years on year. This year, there are a ton of prime examples. If the organizational philosophy is to be aggressive, great. I just want the organizational philosophy to also be "don't run the bases like an idiot."

 

That's fair enough about the game threads, but those comments go beyond the initial reaction of the game thread.

 

I am not debating the stupid outs. I am debating two points:

 

1. Not all outs on basepaths are due to stupidity. And yes, some people think they are.

2. Just because we lead the world in OOBs does not mean that our baserunning is necessarily bad. People have said that Farrell's teams have always run the bases poorly. That's simply not true.

[Slasher9]

if we hit more HR's there would be less people on base. less people on base means there would be less decisions for buttermaker to make. less decisions by buttermaker means less base running blunders. stop hitting balls in the gap. start hitting balls over the wall.

exit velo + launch angle = thanks Obama.

[mvp 78]

That's fair enough about the game threads, but those comments go beyond the initial reaction of the game thread.

 

I am not debating the stupid outs. I am debating two points:

 

1. Not all outs on basepaths are due to stupidity. And yes, some people think they are.

 

Nobody thinks all outs are bad.

 

2. Just because we lead the world in OOBs does not mean that our baserunning is necessarily bad. People have said that Farrell's teams have always run the bases poorly. That's simply not true.

 

It doesn't necessarily mean it's bad, but there is enough supporting evidence elsewhere to include it.

[mvp 78]

if we hit more HR's there would be less people on base. less people on base means there would be less decisions for buttermaker to make. less decisions by buttermaker means less base running blunders. stop hitting balls in the gap. start hitting balls over the wall.

exit velo + launch angle = thanks Obama.

 

Per NESN, Amaro coaches the base running aspects. Need to lay off Butterdude except for plays at the plate that runners are explicitly running on their own (JBJ signing to Butterguy that he's going home no matter what and Betts running through Butterperson's stop sign).

[devildavid]

What do you think though - i bet we could have one hell of a debate on here over what separates stupid from aggressive?

 

Exactly. Where do you draw the line. I don't like Farrell's philosophy of being aggressive on the base paths with the notion that it puts pressure on the defense. It also opens up the good possibility of running yourself out of an inning. It makes me think of gamblers who only tell you about their big payoffs but never about how much they have spent in total on gambling. You really have to pick your spots and they ideally should be few and far between.

[Maxbialystock]

Who cares what the reaction in the gamethreads are? It's easy to read those 10 hours later and complain about a post.

 

No one is saying that all outs on the bases are stupid. Stupid outs are stupid.

 

Posters have complained about Farrell teams running the bases poorly for many years on year. This year, there are a ton of prime examples. If the organizational philosophy is to be aggressive, great. I just want the organizational philosophy to also be "don't run the bases like an idiot."

 

So last night was a good litmus test. Was JBJ simply aggressive or idiotic?