Farrell

[Kimmi]

They all know the basic fundamentals of the game. They have been taught and they have learned them. it is a known fact in any sport at any level, if they aren't continually emphasized they will not tend to be executed properly. If this team continues to make the same mental mistakes that they have been making over and over and over it falls onto the shoulders of JF and his coaching staff. Physical mistakes (errors) and batting slumps will happen but continually running into outs, not knowing how many outs there are, throwing the ball to the wrong bases - not acceptable.

 

I pretty much agree with all of this. I am sure that the Sox practice these skills just like all the other teams do. Why they are making the so many mistakes is beyond me. I don't think Farrell is to blame for the mistakes, but as someone else mentioned, Farrell needs to hold the players accountable for the sloppy play, which is where Farrell may be at fault.

[a700hitter]

They all know the basic fundamentals of the game. They have been taught and they have learned them. it is a known fact in any sport at any level, if they aren't continually emphasized they will not tend to be executed properly. If this team continues to make the same mental mistakes that they have been making over and over and over it falls onto the shoulders of JF and his coaching staff. Physical mistakes (errors) and batting slumps will happen but continually running into outs, not knowing how many outs there are, throwing the ball to the wrong bases - not acceptable.

Even at the MLB level when a guy gets on first base, the coach tells him how many out there are, reminds him to let the liner go through before running if there are less than 2 outs, tells him to run on contact if there are 2 outs etc. if the guy is a base stealer, he will be told the pitcher's time to the plate. They say these things for a reason. If this information isn't continuously provided, they will forget how many out there are etc. There is a reason why the pitcher and his middle infielders decide who is going to take the throw at second base when a runner gets on first with less than two outs. It isn't a big mystery which guy will take the throw, but they need the reminder. I saw a pitcher the other day, lead the second baseman for that throw, but the SS was covering and a DP ball was botched. Good coaching would also have instilled in the pitcher that if he is unsure who will be covering second base that he should throw the ball directly over second base and one of the fielders will get there. The pitcher in question didn't get the memo and threw the ball to the second baseman near his position and not over the base. Major leaguers need to get reminded of these things constantly.

 

Major league coaches and managers are supposed to go over game situations and ask players what they are supposed to do in those situations. I remember a story about Tommy Lasorda having one of those sessions with his team. He set up a scenario with the game on the line, runners on the bases and less than 2 out. He looked at Pedro Guerrero a notoriously bad fielding 3B and asked him what he is thinking in that situation. Guerrero answered that he is hoping that the ball is not hit to him. Lasorda pressed the matter asking him what else is he thinking. Pedro answered that he was hoping that the ball isn't hit to Saxy (i.e. Steve Sax) either. Lots of laughs, yes, but these sessions are supposed to occur at the MLB level.

 

CP, I think you agree with me that repetitive bone head plays in the field and on the bases falls on the coaching staff. That stuff just can't be happening on a regular basis at the MLB level.

[oldtimer]

Even at the MLB level when a guy gets on first base, the coach tells him how many out there are, reminds him to let the liner go through before running if there are less than 2 outs, tells him to run on contact if there are 2 outs etc. if the guy is a base stealer, he will be told the pitcher's time to the plate. They say these things for a reason. If this information isn't continuously provided, they will forget how many out there are etc. There is a reason why the pitcher and his middle infielders decide who is going to take the throw at second base when a runner gets on first with less than two outs. It isn't a big mystery which guy will take the throw, but they need the reminder. I saw a pitcher the other day, lead the second baseman for that throw, but the SS was covering and a DP ball was botched. Good coaching would also have instilled in the pitcher that if he is unsure who will be covering second base that he should throw the ball directly over second base and one of the fielders will get there. The pitcher in question didn't get the memo and threw the ball to the second baseman near his position and not over the base. Major leaguers need to get reminded of these things constantly.

 

Major league coaches and managers are supposed to go over game situations and ask players what they are supposed to do in those situations. I remember a story about Tommy Lasorda having one of those sessions with his team. He set up a scenario with the game on the line, runners on the bases and less than 2 out. He looked at Pedro Guerrero a notoriously bad fielding 3B and asked him what he is thinking in that situation. Guerrero answered that he is hoping that the ball is not hit to him. Lasorda pressed the matter asking him what else is he thinking. Pedro answered that he was hoping that the ball isn't hit to Saxy (i.e. Steve Sax) either. Lots of laughs, yes, but these sessions are supposed to occur at the MLB level.

 

CP, I think you agree with me that repetitive bone head plays in the field and on the bases falls on the coaching staff. That stuff just can't be happening on a regular basis at the MLB level.

 

I agree the coaching staff bears some responsibility in the gaffs we see. What we don't know is whether the coaches did all he should have done and still the playing screwed up or not.

[a700hitter]

I agree the coaching staff bears some responsibility in the gaffs we see. What we don't know is whether the coaches did all he should have done and still the playing screwed up or not.

When it becomes repetitive, it weighs more heavily on the coaching staff.

[Nick]

Not long ago, JF decided NOT to use Kimbrel in a four out situation. He said it was too early in the season. (isn't it all about pitch count anyway?) Today he was using Kimbrel to get the last five outs. Kimbrel got the first two outs in the 8th (final outs) and held the lead.

 

Final three outs became irrelevant as Sox put up 10 runs in the 9th.

 

Every game should matter. The game he refused to put Kimbrel in count just as much as this game. Our backs were up against the wall. We had outplayed the Twinkies. I get it. Just wished he was more consistent. Had JF not put in Kimbrel to hold the lead, the 9th inning outburst may not have happened.

 

JF did the right thing. Why can't he be as smart as I?

[cp176]

Even at the MLB level when a guy gets on first base, the coach tells him how many out there are, reminds him to let the liner go through before running if there are less than 2 outs, tells him to run on contact if there are 2 outs etc. if the guy is a base stealer, he will be told the pitcher's time to the plate. They say these things for a reason. If this information isn't continuously provided, they will forget how many out there are etc. There is a reason why the pitcher and his middle infielders decide who is going to take the throw at second base when a runner gets on first with less than two outs. It isn't a big mystery which guy will take the throw, but they need the reminder. I saw a pitcher the other day, lead the second baseman for that throw, but the SS was covering and a DP ball was botched. Good coaching would also have instilled in the pitcher that if he is unsure who will be covering second base that he should throw the ball directly over second base and one of the fielders will get there. The pitcher in question didn't get the memo and threw the ball to the second baseman near his position and not over the base. Major leaguers need to get reminded of these things constantly.

 

Major league coaches and managers are supposed to go over game situations and ask players what they are supposed to do in those situations. I remember a story about Tommy Lasorda having one of those sessions with his team. He set up a scenario with the game on the line, runners on the bases and less than 2 out. He looked at Pedro Guerrero a notoriously bad fielding 3B and asked him what he is thinking in that situation. Guerrero answered that he is hoping that the ball is not hit to him. Lasorda pressed the matter asking him what else is he thinking. Pedro answered that he was hoping that the ball isn't hit to Saxy (i.e. Steve Sax) either. Lots of laughs, yes, but these sessions are supposed to occur at the MLB level.

 

CP, I think you agree with me that repetitive bone head plays in the field and on the bases falls on the coaching staff. That stuff just can't be happening on a regular basis at the MLB level.

 

 

i agree with you.

[cp176]

Not long ago, JF decided NOT to use Kimbrel in a four out situation. He said it was too early in the season. (isn't it all about pitch count anyway?) Today he was using Kimbrel to get the last five outs. Kimbrel got the first two outs in the 8th (final outs) and held the lead.

 

Final three outs became irrelevant as Sox put up 10 runs in the 9th.

 

Every game should matter. The game he refused to put Kimbrel in count just as much as this game. Our backs were up against the wall. We had outplayed the Twinkies. I get it. Just wished he was more consistent. Had JF not put in Kimbrel to hold the lead, the 9th inning outburst may not have happened.

 

JF did the right thing. Why can't he be as smart as I?

 

 

One of my problems with JF is his lack of consistency. One day he looks like he actually has a plan and the next day he pulls a 180 on me. Athletes at all levels want to know what is expected of them. i think that JF gets along well well his players. he supports them. Big difference comes when you talk about what he gets out of them. if our players are as good as all of the projectors say they should be then i'm sorry he isn't very good. i'm thinking that his job is on the line. We will soon find out what they think of him and what type of leadership we do have in that clubhouse. if the mental mistakes continue, he is gone as well he should be. lets hope they don't continue.

[Bellhorn04]

Not long ago, JF decided NOT to use Kimbrel in a four out situation. He said it was too early in the season. (isn't it all about pitch count anyway?) Today he was using Kimbrel to get the last five outs. Kimbrel got the first two outs in the 8th (final outs) and held the lead.

 

Final three outs became irrelevant as Sox put up 10 runs in the 9th.

 

Every game should matter. The game he refused to put Kimbrel in count just as much as this game. Our backs were up against the wall. We had outplayed the Twinkies. I get it. Just wished he was more consistent. Had JF not put in Kimbrel to hold the lead, the 9th inning outburst may not have happened.

 

JF did the right thing. Why can't he be as smart as I?

 

If you were treating every game like a must-win game, and forgetting about tomorrow, you would be using your closer to get the last 6 outs, not just the last 4 outs, every time you had a lead after 7 innings. Obviously that wouldn't work very well over the course of the season.

 

Most managers don't like to use the closer for more than 3 outs very often-game logs will confirm that.

[oldtimer]

If you were treating every game like a must-win game, and forgetting about tomorrow, you would be using your closer to get the last 6 outs, not just the last 4 outs, every time you had a lead after 7 innings. Obviously that wouldn't work very well over the course of the season.

 

Right now the middle relief pitching looks bad so Farrell doesn't seem to have an option. You can argue whether the managers are culpable in why our relief pitching is looking weak (injuries resulting from methods) and that may be on management. Clearly he can't use Kimbrel in every situation so the Sox need some other reliable relief pitching

[cp176]

If you were treating every game like a must-win game, and forgetting about tomorrow, you would be using your closer to get the last 6 outs, not just the last 4 outs, every time you had a lead after 7 innings. Obviously that wouldn't work very well over the course of the season.

 

Most managers don't like to use the closer for more than 3 outs very often-game logs will confirm that.

 

I understand what you are saying. i guess my question would be though, when does Farrell actually break from the script? Not taking advantage of today because you constantly worry about tomorrow isn't much of a way to get things done either. I liked what he did yesterday.

[Bellhorn04]

I understand what you are saying. i guess my question would be though, when does Farrell actually break from the script? Not taking advantage of today because you constantly worry about tomorrow isn't much of a way to get things done either. I liked what he did yesterday.

 

It's a game-by-game decision, there are no real rules to go by. Yesterday was a perfect opportunity with a day off today.

[mvp 78]

If you were treating every game like a must-win game, and forgetting about tomorrow, you would be using your closer to get the last 6 outs, not just the last 4 outs, every time you had a lead after 7 innings. Obviously that wouldn't work very well over the course of the season.

 

Most managers don't like to use the closer for more than 3 outs very often-game logs will confirm that.

 

And you burn through the pen by midseason. Not the best way to manage a ball club.

[greenwell]

I understand what you are saying. i guess my question would be though, when does Farrell actually break from the script? Not taking advantage of today because you constantly worry about tomorrow isn't much of a way to get things done either. I liked what he did yesterday.

 

I'm sure the fact that 'tomorrow' was an off day helped the decision.

[Kimmi]

I understand what you are saying. i guess my question would be though, when does Farrell actually break from the script? Not taking advantage of today because you constantly worry about tomorrow isn't much of a way to get things done either. I liked what he did yesterday.

 

I can see both sides of the argument. Farrell has to manage the marathon, not the sprint. He can't be in a 'win today's game at any cost' mode this early in the season.

 

That said, I am a believer in the philosophy that you should not always save your closer for the 9th inning. Sometimes the true 'save' situation comes in the 7th or 8th inning. Last night's game was a perfect example. There is no sense in saving your closer for a close situation in the 9th that may never come. If the Sox had blown that game in the 8th with Kimbrel sitting on the bench waiting for the 9th inning save which never came, what a waste that would have been.

 

Kimbrel saved the game in the 8th, which was the true 'save' situation of that game. It turned out that we didn't need him in the 9th. But if we had, there are times when Farrell could use Kimbrel for more than one inning, and when he can't, he'll have to take his chances with another reliever to close out the game. He can use Kimbrel in the 8th without overusing him.

 

But again, it doesn't make a lot of sense to save your best reliever for a 9th inning situation that may never materialize. Use him when the game actually needs to be 'saved', be it the 7th, 8th, or 9th inning.

[Kimmi]

If you were treating every game like a must-win game, and forgetting about tomorrow, you would be using your closer to get the last 6 outs, not just the last 4 outs, every time you had a lead after 7 innings. Obviously that wouldn't work very well over the course of the season.

 

Most managers don't like to use the closer for more than 3 outs very often-game logs will confirm that.

 

I'm not saying to use the closer form more than 3 outs necessarily. But why can't those 3 outs be in the 8th inning if your setup guy puts runners on 2nd and 3rd with no outs and preserving the lead becomes dire?

 

And as far as what most managers do, they do it because that's what tradition dictates. One of the beat writers (may have been PA?) made a good point. It's a lot easier to defend a decision that goes bad if the decision is a 'traditional' decision than it is to defend a decision that bucks tradition. That doesn't make it right though.

[dgalehouse]

Bringing your closer in with the tying run on third and one out in the 8th is more of a desperation move than it is a real game plan. Fortunately , Kimbrel was up to the task. Such a shame that we "overpaid " for him.

[Bellhorn04]

I'm not saying to use the closer form more than 3 outs necessarily. But why can't those 3 outs be in the 8th inning if your setup guy puts runners on 2nd and 3rd with no outs and preserving the lead becomes dire?

 

And as far as what most managers do, they do it because that's what tradition dictates. One of the beat writers (may have been PA?) made a good point. It's a lot easier to defend a decision that goes bad if the decision is a 'traditional' decision than it is to defend a decision that bucks tradition. That doesn't make it right though.

 

I don't disagree. We've been discussing this issue for a while, of course, and Tito earned great praise for the way he deployed Andrew Miller last year. But Tito did also have a highly effective Cody Allen 'backing up' Miller, too.

[Bellhorn04]

Bringing your closer in with the tying run on third and one out in the 8th is more of a desperation move than it is a real game plan.

 

Agreed, but game circumstances sometimes do dictate the desperation move.

[mvp 78]

Agreed, but game circumstances sometimes do dictate the desperation move.

 

As well as how much time it takes for a reliever to get warmed up.

[cp176]

It's a game-by-game decision, there are no real rules to go by. Yesterday was a perfect opportunity with a day off today.

 

I agree with you here. i just don't think that jF breaks with the current established ways of doing business vey often. i really don't know how else to say it.

[cp176]

Now I realize that it was unusual for JF to bring in Kimbrel when he did. At least it was unusual for him. Do you really think that what he did is an example of panic or desperation. If it was, what can the guy do to get something right?

[Bellhorn04]

We have a poster here, Dojji, who maintains, rather vociferously, that the whole 'relief ace' thing is a bunch of hogwash, that you need 3 top-notch relievers, period, and without that you're screwed no matter what methodology you use.

[Bellhorn04]

Now I realize that it was unusual for JF to bring in Kimbrel when he did. At least it was unusual for him. Do you really think that what he did is an example of panic or desperation. If it was, what can the guy do to get something right?

 

There's really nothing wrong with some occasional panic or desperation in my books. Better than fiddling while Rome burns, as the saying goes.

[mvp 78]

There's really nothing wrong with some occasional panic or desperation in my books. Better than fiddling while Rome burns, as the saying goes.

 

And having a day off afterwards certainly helped.

[jacksonianmarch]

Farrell cannot help the fact that the bridge to Kimbrel is currently on the DL without a timetable for return. If Kimbrel got 6 outs with regularity, he'd be on the DL too. Barnes was the hot hand, but he has now cooled. Maybe Hembree runs with the 8th inning, who knows. Needless to say, I think this trade deadline is going to be interesting for the sox. You need a reliable 8th inning guy or else your playoff run will be a short one, if you make it at all. Today's playoff pitching is essentially 6IP from starters and 3IP from high powered relievers closing out the games. You don't have that before Kimbrel. You will need that come the deadline

[S5Dewey]

... it doesn't make a lot of sense to save your best reliever for a 9th inning situation that may never materialize. Use him when the game actually needs to be 'saved', be it the 7th, 8th, or 9th inning.

 

As Leo Durocher said, "Don't save a pitcher for tomorrow. It might rain tomorrow."

 

To paraphrase that, 'Don 't save your closer for the 9th. You may be behind in the 9th.'

[Nick]

Kimbrel last pitched Tuesday and Wednesday. He's going on a three days rest.

 

Desperation? I'm f***ing glad you're not coaching my team. How about playing with sense of urgency FROM TIME TO TIME? We had completely outplayed the Twinkies but were in danger of losing the series to them. It would have been a devastating loss.

 

Blame? How about our big wuss Matt Barnes? Gives up a walk off homer the previous game, comes in and gives up a homer and two walks.

 

My high school baseball coach saved our ace for the second game on a Saturday during a state tournament. Well WTF, the second game never came. We got bombed 11-9 in the morning game.

 

10 Run outburst may never came had we gotten behind in the 8th. Oh but wait, we'd have fresh Kimbrel, now with FIVE f***ING days of rest going into Milwaukee.

 

As it turned out, we needed strikeouts and we got it. Kimbrell never had to go back out for outs four, five and six.

Edited May 8, 2017 by Nick

[Slasher9]

I blame Farrell for this thread.

[mvp 78]

I blame Farrell for this thread.

 

Thanks Ben!

[Fisk]

I think Farrell's big mistake yesterday was not pinch hitting for Marrero with the bases loaded and 1 out in the eight. That made no sense.