2017 Rotation Discussion

[cp176]

Rocket in 84 and 85 - you could tell if he stayed healthy his show was real

Pedro of course

Chris Sale - Guess I had forgotten how much a true ace can change a team's landscape. Wow! I have seen him pitch before of course but I guess since he wasn't one of ours hadn't paid attention. I'm all about this type of game anyway but if this is what we are in store for, this trade could go down as historic for us. I love Porcello and was hoping and still hope that Price will be ace like but this guy is for real. His delivery looks a little different I guess but not real different. He catches the ball and then throws it back to the catcher. You could see that he was pissed because he walked one guy. We are very very fortunate to have him! it would have been good for me to have heard him talk about why he cut up the throwback jerseys too. I might not condone what he did but I sure as don't hold that act against him. He is way to good to be pitching for the White Sox. Welcome to a championship region and franchise.

i should have included Lonborg in 67 on my list of true Boston aces - my 1+ list.

[Fisk]

It's nice knowing on the day Sale is going to pitch we will probably win the game. Might not be the same confidence level of a Pedro, but more confidence then a Beckett, Lester and Price.

[Bellhorn04]

It's nice knowing on the day Sale is going to pitch we will probably win the game. Might not be the same confidence level of a Pedro, but more confidence then a Beckett, Lester and Price.

 

Lester? I dunno. Except for 2012 he was a consistent winner...his career record with us was 110-63, a .636 winning pct.

[Fisk]

Lester? I dunno. Except for 2012 he was a consistent winner...his career record with us was 110-63, a .636 winning pct.

 

From September of 2011 until August 2013 he was pretty iffy.

[Bellhorn04]

From September of 2011 until August 2013 he was pretty iffy.

 

In 2013 he actually just had one really bad month, June, and the rest were all good to excellent.

[cp176]

Lester? I dunno. Except for 2012 he was a consistent winner...his career record with us was 110-63, a .636 winning pct.

 

I think that it depends upon what your personal individual standards are for ace qualification. This is where I don't care at all about what all of the gurus say it takes to be a true ace. They don't come along all that often for me. As much as I loved Lester, I never really have considered him to be a top of the food chain ace. great pitcher none the less.

[Fisk]

In 2013 he actually just had one really bad month, June, and the rest were all good to excellent.

 

I was ready to take him out of the rotation at that point, arguably Doubront and Dempster were more effective pitchers at that point. I think Lester has been a true ace since 14. Before that I thought he was more of a number 2 because of consistency.

[cp176]

I was ready to take him out of the rotation at that point, arguably Doubront and Dempster were more effective pitchers at that point. I think Lester has been a true ace since 14. Before that I thought he was more of a number 2 because of consistency.

 

Like I said earlier, this is one where we all get to have our own personal standards. Personally, my list of 1's is a very small one.

[bosoxmal]

Buch goes for the Phillies today

[devildavid]

Even without Price, the Sox have a very strong rotation. When Price returns, even if he only performs up to last season's level, it makes the rotation even stronger. As long as they remain relatively healthy, this starting staff should carry us to another first place finish. With the addition of Sale, they should do much better in the playoffs. I hope I'm not jinxing them with my optimism, but this starting rotation is built to win.

[moonslav59]

I usually use the rough standard that if you are a top 30 pitcher, you can be considered "an ace", but I can certainly see how a tighter standard can be used.

 

Here's the top 30 SP'ers by WAR since 2014. Note: some pitcher were injured, so their IP were lower.

 

I bolded the pitchers I think have been true "aces" by almost any standard.

 

1 Clayton Kershaw

2 Corey Kluber

3 Max Scherzer

4 David Price

5 Chris Sale

6 Jake Arrieta

7 Jon Lester

8 Madison Bumgarner

9 Jose Quintana

10 Johnny Cueto

11 Dallas Keuchel

12 Zack Greinke

13 Jacob deGrom

14 Stephen Strasburg

15 Chris Archer

16 Cole Hamels

17 Justin Verlander

18 Carlos Carrasco

19 Gerrit Cole

20 Rick Porcello

21 Felix Hernandez

22 Collin McHugh

23 Gio Gonzalez

24 Masahiro Tanaka

25 Jordan Zimmermann

26 Jeff Samardzija

27 Kyle Hendricks

28 John Lackey

29 Michael Pineda

30 Adam Wainwright

[Fisk]

I usually use the rough standard that if you are a top 30 pitcher, you can be considered "an ace", but I can certainly see how a tighter standard can be used.

 

Here's the top 30 SP'ers by WAR since 2014. Note: some pitcher were injured, so their IP were lower.

 

I bolded the pitchers I think have been true "aces" by almost any standard.

 

1 Clayton Kershaw

2 Corey Kluber

3 Max Scherzer

4 David Price

5 Chris Sale

6 Jake Arrieta

7 Jon Lester

8 Madison Bumgarner

9 Jose Quintana

10 Johnny Cueto

11 Dallas Keuchel

12 Zack Greinke

13 Jacob deGrom

14 Stephen Strasburg

15 Chris Archer

16 Cole Hamels

17 Justin Verlander

18 Carlos Carrasco

19 Gerrit Cole

20 Rick Porcello

21 Felix Hernandez

22 Collin McHugh

23 Gio Gonzalez

24 Masahiro Tanaka

25 Jordan Zimmermann

26 Jeff Samardzija

27 Kyle Hendricks

28 John Lackey

29 Michael Pineda

30 Adam Wainwright

 

Felix really hasn't been an ace since 2014.

[Kimmi]

It's nice knowing on the day Sale is going to pitch we will probably win the game. Might not be the same confidence level of a Pedro, but more confidence then a Beckett, Lester and Price.

 

This is what was so frustrating about Price last year. He was supposed to be our ace, that type of pitcher where you knew you would probably win the game when he took the mound. I remember a couple of games fairly early in the season in which the offense gave him a 4-5 run lead, and I thought, 'game over', only to have Price cough up those leads.

[Fisk]

This is what was so frustrating about Price last year. He was supposed to be our ace, that type of pitcher where you knew you would probably win the game when he took the mound. I remember a couple of games fairly early in the season in which the offense gave him a 4-5 run lead, and I thought, 'game over', only to have Price cough up those leads.

Yes didn't come close to pitching to expectations, had real high hopes for a rebound this season. Hopefully we will get that Price sometime.

[Nick]

All I know and all I care about is Sale getting 2 starts per playoff games per series. He has PRESENCE on the mound.

 

For that reason alone, we have improved more than anyone else.

[Fisk]

All I know and all I care about is Sale getting 2 starts per playoff games per series. He has PRESENCE on the mound.

 

For that reason alone, we have improved more than anyone else.

 

Yes he's seems fearless.

[cp176]

This is what was so frustrating about Price last year. He was supposed to be our ace, that type of pitcher where you knew you would probably win the game when he took the mound. I remember a couple of games fairly early in the season in which the offense gave him a 4-5 run lead, and I thought, 'game over', only to have Price cough up those leads.

 

I feel and felt the same. I think that Sale is and has been on a different level though.

[S5Dewey]

This is what was so frustrating about Price last year. He was supposed to be our ace, that type of pitcher where you knew you would probably win the game when he took the mound. I remember a couple of games fairly early in the season in which the offense gave him a 4-5 run lead, and I thought, 'game over', only to have Price cough up those leads.

 

..Which is why we had to go pitcher shopping during this off season. Ugh. We were very fortunate that Sale was available and that we had the players to get him.

[moonslav59]

I feel and felt the same. I think that Sale is and has been on a different level though.

 

They had pretty similar resumes until last year.

 

It's pretty amazing we got both.

 

My biggest "what if" that can never be answered is (at the risk of beating a very dead horse once again) whether or not we might have been able to get Quintana along with Sale by adding players from trades theoretically not made: Espinoza, Margot, Guerra, Allen and Asuaje or mix and match with one or two from Groome, Devers, Travis or Dalbec.

 

For argument's sake, let's say we signed Clippard and traded scraps for KRod instead of trading for Kimbrel, and nixed the Espi trade. Then, maybe gave up Espi, Margot, Guerra, Allen and Asuaje for Quintana, we'd have this rotation right now:

 

Sale

Price

Quintana

Porcello

ERod/Wright

 

But our closer would be much more in doubt.

 

Okay- horse beaten again.

 

[cp176]

Come on now. That poor horse just can't get to the barn soon enough.

[Nick]

They had pretty similar resumes until last year.

 

It's pretty amazing we got both.

 

My biggest "what if" that can never be answered is (at the risk of beating a very dead horse once again) whether or not we might have been able to get Quintana along with Sale by adding players from trades theoretically not made: Espinoza, Margot, Guerra, Allen and Asuaje or mix and match with one or two from Groome, Devers, Travis or Dalbec.

 

For argument's sake, let's say we signed Clippard and traded scraps for KRod instead of trading for Kimbrel, and nixed the Espi trade. Then, maybe gave up Espi, Margot, Guerra, Allen and Asuaje for Quintana, we'd have this rotation right now:

 

Sale

Price

Quintana

Porcello

ERod/Wright

 

But our closer would be much more in doubt.

 

Okay- horse beaten again.

 

 

Lets beat a new horse...

 

Groome, Devers and Pomeranz enough to get Q?

[cp176]

Lets beat a new horse...

 

Groome, Devers and Pomeranz enough to get Q?

 

See this is the thing - there really is more than one way to "skin a cat". We all value starting pitching probably more than anything else. You either develop them yourself or you let someone else do it for you. I would be in favor of a trade like you suggested i think. Draft the best young players that are available - keep some trade some. That is the way it goes. When you have the resources that the Red Sox have available to them, you don't have to rely on one way of doing things. Probably why I am ok with the Espinoza trade. Lets see if and when he ever becomes a top of the rotation guy. If he does, we likely will be in the hunt to get him back.

[Bellhorn04]

This is what was so frustrating about Price last year. He was supposed to be our ace, that type of pitcher where you knew you would probably win the game when he took the mound. I remember a couple of games fairly early in the season in which the offense gave him a 4-5 run lead, and I thought, 'game over', only to have Price cough up those leads.

 

Do you think it was randomness or choking?

 

(Sorry Kimmi...I tried to resist but I couldn't.)

[Nick]

By the way, Sale would have been much better had he gotten strike calls for pitches in lower strike zone.

 

I counted at least 6 strikes at the knees that were not called. Ump at least was consistent, opposing pitcher did not get strike calls at the bottom either.

 

He is good.

[moonslav59]

Lets beat a new horse...

 

Groome, Devers and Pomeranz enough to get Q?

 

Assuming the CWS would flip Pom to another team, I still doubt it. We'd probably have to add Travis to just get them to listen, and our farm would complete it's move from 1st to 30th in a very short time.

[moonslav59]

By the way, Sale would have been much better had he gotten strike calls for pitches in lower strike zone.

 

I counted at least 6 strikes at the knees that were not called. Ump at least was consistent, opposing pitcher did not get strike calls at the bottom either.

 

He is good.

 

And, I thought MLB lowered the K zone a while back.

[Nick]

Assuming the CWS would flip Pom to another team, I still doubt it. We'd probably have to add Travis to just get them to listen, and our farm would complete it's move from 1st to 30th in a very short time.

 

We need for E Rod to step up this year. As I've mentioned before, this year corresponds to Lester's breakout year he had as a young Sox hurler. As with most young pitchers, it's all about control and locating his pitches for E Rod.

 

Then we can wait patiently on Groome to arrive around 2020.

Edited April 7, 2017 by Nick

[moonslav59]

We need for E Rod to step up this year. As I've mentioned before, this year corresponds to Lester's breakout year he had as a young Sox hurler. As with most young pitchers, it's all about control and locating his pitches for E Rod.

 

Then we can wait patiently on Groome to arrive around 2020.

 

I'm super high on ERod. He could become ace material as soon as this year. What a boost that would be.

 

I've also been very high on Wright for years. I love the knuckleball and think it messes with hitters' timing - sometimes for a few games afterwards.

 

I like Pom, too, but I think I just like these other two more. (No, it has nothing to do with hating the idea of trading Espi for a risky #3 type.)

[Emp9]

Rocket in 84 and 85 - you could tell if he stayed healthy his show was real

Pedro of course

Chris Sale - Guess I had forgotten how much a true ace can change a team's landscape. Wow! I have seen him pitch before of course but I guess since he wasn't one of ours hadn't paid attention. I'm all about this type of game anyway but if this is what we are in store for, this trade could go down as historic for us. I love Porcello and was hoping and still hope that Price will be ace like but this guy is for real. His delivery looks a little different I guess but not real different. He catches the ball and then throws it back to the catcher. You could see that he was pissed because he walked one guy. We are very very fortunate to have him! it would have been good for me to have heard him talk about why he cut up the throwback jerseys too. I might not condone what he did but I sure as don't hold that act against him. He is way to good to be pitching for the White Sox. Welcome to a championship region and franchise.

i should have included Lonborg in 67 on my list of true Boston aces - my 1+ list.

 

Having a SP like Sale on a team ready to seriously compete definitely puts more meaning on his performances. It's one of the better trades I've witnessed as a Red Sox fan. And I mean timing-wise as well. It was a perfect time to not only fill a need, but put an exclamation point on our rotation. And for him, having at the very least a top 5 defensive OF behind him? These should be good times. Cheers!

[moonslav59]

Having a SP like Sale on a team ready to seriously compete definitely puts more meaning on his performances. It's one of the better trades I've witnessed as a Red Sox fan. And I mean timing-wise as well. It was a perfect time to not only fill a need, but put an exclamation point on our rotation. And for him, having at the very least a top 5 defensive OF behind him? These should be good times. Cheers!

 

Exactly. But, I will add that I think when a guy like Sale comes available, any time is "the right time" to get him.