2017 Rotation

[moonslav59]

Sandoval is just 30 years old. Has he ever been in better shape than he looks to be in right now? The potential for him to be a productive player over the next 3, 4, 5 years is a real possibility. Don't you have to be just a little bit excited for him and for what he might be able to do? He has clearly done the work that he needed to do.

 

If being "out of shape" all his career was what kept his numbers lower than his potential, then you are right. The logic makes sense. He could have his best season ever.

 

He's certainly one of the top "players to watch" to start the season.

[moonslav59]

Opinions really haven't changed at all Moonslav. We just know the team has gone all in on the guy this year and are pulling for him to prove them right because there aren't a ton of options. In other words we realize we're stuck with Pablo and want him to make good. Our opinions of the guy really haven't changed that much, but now we're forced to go all in on hope.

 

Go back and read people's opinions last fall.

 

When I just listed Pablo as a possible competitor at 3B for the 2017 season, hardly anyone agreed and many laughed or berated the idea.

 

Some opinions have changed. Things have changed since last fall. We have no Travis Shaw. We've seen the photos of a much thinner Pablo. Approaching spring lends itself to optimism.

 

Fan and media opinions have changed. I see no doubt in that fact. Maybe not everyone, but many.

 

I'm sure even the strongest Pablo supporter (not me) has doubts.

[cp176]

If being "out of shape" all his career was what kept his numbers lower than his potential, then you are right. The logic makes sense. He could have his best season ever.

 

He's certainly one of the top "players to watch" to start the season.

 

I care about how he plays and produces of course but more importantly for me is that here is a guy who actually faced a tough situation head on and did something about it. What he did in a relatively short period of time is not an easy thing to do. He gets my support! Obviously if someone looked at this negatively they might say that he hasn't done anything more than he should have done. It just isn't that easy.

[mvp 78]

If being "out of shape" all his career was what kept his numbers lower than his potential, then you are right. The logic makes sense. He could have his best season ever.

 

He's certainly one of the top "players to watch" to start the season.

 

He had moments where he was in shape in SF. The production didn't always correlate with his weight though.

[mvp 78]

Go back and read people's opinions last fall.

 

When I just listed Pablo as a possible competitor at 3B for the 2017 season, hardly anyone agreed and many laughed or berated the idea.

 

Some opinions have changed. Things have changed since last fall. We have no Travis Shaw. We've seen the photos of a much thinner Pablo. Approaching spring lends itself to optimism.

 

Fan and media opinions have changed. I see no doubt in that fact. Maybe not everyone, but many.

 

I'm sure even the strongest Pablo supporter (not me) has doubts.

 

Man, you just love patting yourself on the back over and over again even when you're incorrect about the facts.

[moonslav59]

I care about how he plays and produces of course but more importantly for me is that here is a guy who actually faced a tough situation head on and did something about it. What he did in a relatively short period of time is not an easy thing to do. He gets my support! Obviously if someone looked at this negatively they might say that he hasn't done anything more than he should have done. It just isn't that easy.

 

I'm totally with you on this, and when I did include Pablo in my suggested outlook for 2017, I said things like, "Anybody with just a shred of self pride has to realize what people are saying and feeling about what happened over the previous 2 years." I couldn't believe anyone would want his lasting impression of his life's work to be that "he ate himself out of baseball", "took the big money and got lazy" or "just didn't care" about himself or his teammates. He had to have felt great after his playoff heroics with SF. The fans loved him.

 

I think he convinced himself, he can do great and still be overweight, but somewhere along the way the scales flipped (pun intended). Most of us thought his terrible 2015 season should have been enough to motivate him like he has been these past few months. What took him so long? Last year's report that he was "getting in shape" led to an even greater disappointment when he came to camp apparently as fat or fatter than spring 2015. The fans and media justifiably went bonkers. I think he recognized that, and that was the "reaching the lowest point" of his problem and the start of his "mental rehab".

 

I'm going to be rooting extra hard for Pablo. It's not always so easy to keep focused and dedicated. I'm hopeful he has turned the corner and will stay on track going forward. Relapses are always a possibility, so he needs to keep himself in check.

[cp176]

My opinion of him has certainly changed. I always felt that there was a chance that he could make a decent comeback though. He still could do that. My opinion was that he was a lazy fat slob and really didn't care a lot about much more than his paycheck. Clearly I was wrong but I don't think that anyone ever suggested that he would be able to do what he has done physically. He is obviously motivated by something other than the $. Regardless of what he does, what he has done is great.

[moonslav59]

Man, you just love patting yourself on the back over and over again even when you're incorrect about the facts.

 

You are denying the fact that many posters were saying we should not count on anything from Pablo in 2017?

 

Wow!

 

Some wanted us to just DFA him and eat the money. Some suggested we do what we did with Craig and Castillo- not realizing you can't do that to a player with 5+ years of ML service.

 

I realize many things have changed since then that led to people's opinions to change, but the fact is people's opinions have changed on Pablo. Why deny it?

 

btw, I'm not "patting myself on the back", because I was one of the posters who said, "I'm counting on zero fro Pablo next year", but I also was not "writing him off" as some were.

 

I was wrong, like many of us.

 

No back-patting. Just an me admitting that opinions (mine included) change with a changing fact base to work with.

[cp176]

I'm totally with you on this, and when I did include Pablo in my suggested outlook for 2017, I said things like, "Anybody with just a shred of self pride has to realize what people are saying and feeling about what happened over the previous 2 years." I couldn't believe anyone would want his lasting impression of his life's work to be that "he ate himself out of baseball", "took the big money and got lazy" or "just didn't care" about himself or his teammates. He had to have felt great after his playoff heroics with SF. The fans loved him.

 

I think he convinced himself, he can do great and still be overweight, but somewhere along the way the scales flipped (pun intended). Most of us thought his terrible 2015 season should have been enough to motivate him like he has been these past few months. What took him so long? Last year's report that he was "getting in shape" led to an even greater disappointment when he came to camp apparently as fat or fatter than spring 2015. The fans and media justifiably went bonkers. I think he recognized that, and that was the "reaching the lowest point" of his problem and the start of his "mental rehab".

 

I'm going to be rooting extra hard for Pablo. It's not always so easy to keep focused and dedicated. I'm hopeful he has turned the corner and will stay on track going forward. Relapses are always a possibility, so he needs to keep himself in check.

 

This is no knock on a game that I have loved forever but playing baseball at any level does not lead to the type of overall fitness that Sandoval is heading toward. He could play in every game and still gain unwanted weight this year. He is going to have to pay attention. He probably likes how the new Pablo looks and feels though.

[moonslav59]

He had moments where he was in shape in SF. The production didn't always correlate with his weight though.

 

Yes, that's why I said "If"... being out of shape...kept his numbers down. I know he did very well at times with SF when he was heaviest. That might be what led him to believe his weight did not matter in terms of projected production.

[Nick]

Man, you just love patting yourself on the back over and over again even when you're incorrect about the facts.

 

What has changed is many here are more astute about financial constraints placed on Sox especially with severe penalties attached for going over the luxury tax limit. There's simply too much money vested in Pablo. Having Devers come through with no Sale to me is not as attractive as using Devers to acquire Sale and try to rehabilitate Pablo's career at 3rd. If Pablo can give us average production at third, then we'll be that much closer to winning the title.

 

Pablo tried to fool us when in fact he was fooling himself. Let's hope he's in his best shape to meet the challenges og hitting ml pitching.

 

Yeah patting one's back is not very attractive. It's akin to publicizing one doing a good deed. The act itself is the reward. Not being recognized for it.

Edited January 12, 2017 by Nick

[mvp 78]

You are denying the fact that many posters were saying we should not count on anything from Pablo in 2017?

 

Wow!

 

Some wanted us to just DFA him and eat the money. Some suggested we do what we did with Craig and Castillo- not realizing you can't do that to a player with 5+ years of ML service.

 

I realize many things have changed since then that led to people's opinions to change, but the fact is people's opinions have changed on Pablo. Why deny it?

 

btw, I'm not "patting myself on the back", because I was one of the posters who said, "I'm counting on zero fro Pablo next year", but I also was not "writing him off" as some were.

 

I was wrong, like many of us.

 

No back-patting. Just an me admitting that opinions (mine included) change with a changing fact base to work with.

 

You said in reference to the fall: When I just listed Pablo as a possible competitor at 3B for the 2017 season, hardly anyone agreed and many laughed or berated the idea.

 

However, in the fall you spent more time pining for a trade for Frazier and only stated that Pablo should be in the mix at DH, but would rather trade him anywhere else.

 

http://www.talksox.com/forum/threads/17963-Looking-ahead-to-2017

[moonslav59]

This is no knock on a game that I have loved forever but playing baseball at any level does not lead to the type of overall fitness that Sandoval is heading toward. He could play in every game and still gain unwanted weight this year. He is going to have to pay attention. He probably likes how the new Pablo looks and feels though.

 

True enough. It might take extreme vigilance on his part to not fall back into bad habits.

 

Sometimes it happens so slowly, you barely notice it's happening.

[moonslav59]

You said in reference to the fall: When I just listed Pablo as a possible competitor at 3B for the 2017 season, hardly anyone agreed and many laughed or berated the idea.

 

However, in the fall you spent more time pining for a trade for Frazier and only stated that Pablo should be in the mix at DH, but would rather trade him anywhere else.

 

http://www.talksox.com/forum/threads/17963-Looking-ahead-to-2017

 

I'd still like to have Frazier over Pablo right now, but we have no money or prospects left to make it worthwhile.

 

The two positions are not hypocritical.

 

When I started this thread and commented on other threads, I always listed Pablo as a possibility at 3B for 2017. I had less faith in Shaw than most here even right after his small sample size 2015 production.

 

A few posters went off on Pablo. Even just a month or so ago, some poster was totally bashing him. I don't hear that anymore. I hear people being positive about him, hence my statement that people's opinions have changed. It seemed pretty obvious. I wasn't trying to claim I was some soothsayer, because I was in the crowd that felt we shouldn't count on Pablo. That's why I suggested trading for Frazier, signing Turner and even pining over the old plan of suggesting moving Bogey to 3B and having Iggy at SS.

 

You keep reading things into my statements. I'm not patting myself on the back, because I git it wrong about Pablo. My opinion has changed as have countless other Sox fans. Why you deny or pretend I am now implying I supported Pablo all along it is beyond me.

 

[mvp 78]

I'd still like to have Frazier over Pablo right now, but we have no money or prospects left to make it worthwhile.

 

The two positions are not hypocritical.

 

When I started this thread and commented on other threads, I always listed Pablo as a possibility at 3B for 2017. I had less faith in Shaw than most here even right after his small sample size 2015 production.

 

A few posters went off on Pablo. Even just a month or so ago, some poster was totally bashing him. I don't hear that anymore. I hear people being positive about him, hence my statement that people's opinions have changed. It seemed pretty obvious. I wasn't trying to claim I was some soothsayer, because I was in the crowd that felt we shouldn't count on Pablo. That's why I suggested trading for Frazier, signing Turner and even pining over the old plan of suggesting moving Bogey to 3B and having Iggy at SS.

 

You keep reading things into my statements. I'm not patting myself on the back, because I git it wrong about Pablo. My opinion has changed as have countless other Sox fans. Why you deny or pretend I am now implying I supported Pablo all along it is beyond me.

 

 

Stating that you want to either trade or "Castillo" Panda is pretty black and white about your feelings for him on the roster. It's not me reading into anything.

[moonslav59]

Stating that you want to either trade or "Castillo" Panda is pretty black and white about your feelings for him on the roster. It's not me reading into anything.

 

Nothing I have said recently denies that I didn't want Pablo as our 3Bman last fall. Hell, I don't even want him now. I've even suggested we trade him if he hits .850 this year.

 

You are the master of strawman building.

[moonslav59]

What a turn around for Panda on fan opinions and expectations from last spring to now.

 

I remember I caught a lot of flack last fall for just mentioning Pablo being "in the mix" at 3B or DH for 2017.

 

Now, he's basically all we've got, and posters are beginning to believe he can be productive again.

 

A "monster year" might be pushing it, but my expectations are certainly growing every time I see a new pic of him.

 

Read the underlined part.

 

I never said I wanted him to be our 3Bman. Not now. Not then. I never said that I said I wanted him.

 

You are trying to make it sound like I'm bragging about Pablo starting and that I have said he would or wanted him to all along.

 

Nothing is further from the truth.

 

The post above was just a reflection on how all or our (or most of us) opinions have changed on Pablo since last fall.

 

MYSELF INCLUDED!

[moonslav59]

Stating that you want to either trade or "Castillo" Panda is pretty black and white about your feelings for him on the roster. It's not me reading into anything.

 

Where specifically did I "pat myself on the back" or contradict myself?

[Slasher9]

price = clay. except we are stuck with price for 6 more seasons. thank god for sale.

[notin]

price = clay. except we are stuck with price for 6 more seasons. thank god for sale.

 

Other than both being Major League pitchers, I don't see much else in common between the two...

[Slasher9]

Other than both being Major League pitchers, I don't see much else in common between the two...

 

3.1 / 5 / 13.50

4.0 / 2 / 4.50

 

your right. clay is better when it counts most.

[moonslav59]

3.1 / 5 / 13.50

4.0 / 2 / 4.50

 

your right. clay is better when it counts most.

 

Clay is hurt or pitching poorly more than half the time.

[a700hitter]

Buchholz may be the biggest disappointment coming out of the Red Sox system in my memory. He pitches a no-hitter in his second start and the sky was the limit, and he hasn't come close to reaching his potential. He had ace stuff.

[Slasher9]

and Prices signing has been equally disappointing and frustrating.

hence price = clay

[mvp 78]

Buchholz may be the biggest disappointment coming out of the Red Sox system in my memory. He pitches a no-hitter in his second start and the sky was the limit, and he hasn't come close to reaching his potential. He had ace stuff.

 

http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/p/penaju01.shtml

[moonslav59]

and Prices signing has been equally disappointing and frustrating.

hence price = clay

 

In Price's defense, it's only been one year. It took a year for Beckett to adjust, so maybe we'll see an uptick with Price too.

 

I was disappointed by his performance as well, not even counting the one playoff game.

 

I was against the signing due to the enormous amount of money, but I did think he represented the "safest bet" of any SP'er to come along in free agency for quite some time.

 

Buch was drafted by us. He never really made huge money, but his countless injuries and "recovery periods" or "pre-injury periods" where he sucked were just too much for any Sox fan to accept.

 

At least Price gave us 35 starts and 230 IP-- something Buch could never even dream of doing.

 

I will give him credit though, and here's where the similarity to Buch's "half seasons of doing well" argument comes into play, he battled back from a horrendous start.

 

He had a 6.00 ERA after 8 starts!

 

He was still over 5.10 after 11 starts.

 

He barely made it under 4.00, but his 3.58 second half ERA, if adjusted for park and strength of opponent came pretty close to his career norm. Even his final ERA- of 90 was not too out of sinc with his recent numbers:

 

09 104

10 69

11 90

12 66

13 86

14 87

15 60

16 90

 

There's no evidence that he will become only a half season star going forward.

[moonslav59]

http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/p/penaju01.shtml

 

I had forgotten about him!

 

Others who might compete for the label but with different circumstances....

 

Roger Moret

Abe Alvarez

Michael Bowden

Casey Kelly

[cp176]

I had forgotten about him!

 

Others who might compete for the label but with different circumstances....

 

Roger Moret

Abe Alvarez

Michael Bowden

Casey Kelly

 

Rogelio Moret was the real deal and a very sad story. I remember him very well. He threw hard! He really looked like he was going to be special. he had some serious issues.

[moonslav59]

Rogelio Moret was the real deal and a very sad story. I remember him very well. He threw hard! He really looked like he was going to be special. he had some serious issues.

 

I remember something about him falling into a catatonic trance in the locker room one day.

 

What amazes me most about his stellar record with the Sox from 1970-1975 (41-18 3.43) was how he was able to maintain an 87 ERA- with a WHIP of 1.363.

 

His 14-3 record in 1975 led the league in winning %... all with a 1.43 WHIP! (His FIP_ was 102.)

 

He pitched three more years after leaving the Sox, but never started more than 12 games in a season.

[mvp 78]

I had forgotten about him!

 

Others who might compete for the label but with different circumstances....

 

Roger Moret

Abe Alvarez

Michael Bowden

Casey Kelly

 

Abe Alvarez rocked a nice crooked hat, but that's about it.

 

Bowden was just overhyped and never did anything.

 

Kelly was sent away long before he was a blip on the MLB radar.