2017 Rotation

[notin]

It's not easy to replace like 20 traded prospects, especially with the quality prospects we have had. The new rules make it harder for better and richer teams to acquire better prospects.

 

Moncada

Espinoza

Margot

Kopech

Basabe

T Shaw (not a prospect when traded)

Guerra

Dubon

Aro

Wilkerson

Allen

Basabe (the other one)

Rijo

V Diaz

Asuaje

Light

Almonte

 

 

Off that list we mightb actually miss only like 4 or 5 players.

 

I don't mind trading prospects. For many of them, their prospect status might be the pinnacle of their usefulness. But if you builda team by trading prospects, you do need to knoe how to get more. In that area, my faith I Dombrowski is so high just yet. He does get points for Groome. But his drafting history is shaky overall

[moonslav59]

Off that list we mightb actually miss only like 4 or 5 players.

 

I don't mind trading prospects. For many of them, their prospect status might be the pinnacle of their usefulness. But if you builda team by trading prospects, you do need to knoe how to get more. In that area, my faith I Dombrowski is so high just yet. He does get points for Groome. But his drafting history is shaky overall

 

I'm fine with the trades (except Pom>Espi), but I'm not going to pretend we can replace what we had magically and be ready to replace our studs when some hit the open market.

 

I happy as s*** we got Sale and Thorn!

[southpaw777]

Dombrowski is no Theo.

 

His philosophy is all wrong.

 

Too funny...hes been an MLB GM for decades but hes all wrong? Id say hes done a fine job here so far. we now have 5 young and controlled positional starters for at least three years, as well as a couple position players of need still left in the system with Dvers and Travis And Delbac. Groome is also still here. Our pitching staff is set for the next 3 years with 3 CY type pitchers! Thats pretty badass. Now, when we start to shed payroll over the next three years with guys like Hanley, Buch, Panda, etc..we will then sign our young nucleous. That gives us three more years to draft, develop and make some more trades/FA acquisitions to balance it out....actually, this is EXACTLY how you do it as long as drafting is good. Groome is a very good start...like DD said, 3-4 years is an eternity in MLB. You strike when the window is open, which it is.

You may not agree with certain trades but that doesnt mean that hes "All Wrong".... far from it. Dont get so attached to prospects. Identify a few and stick with them as DD has done. Then use the rest to fill the holes.

Edited December 8, 2016 by southpaw777

[cp176]

Too funny...hes been an MLB GM for decades but hes all wrong? Id say hes done a fine job here so far. we now have 5 young and controlled positional starters for at least three years, as well as a couple position players of need still left in the system with Dvers and Travis And Delbac. Groome is also still here. Our pitching staff is set for the next 3 years with 3 CY type pitchers! Thats pretty badass. Now, when we start to shed payroll over the next three years with guys like Hanley, Buch, Panda, etc..we will then sign our young nucleous. That gives us three more years to draft, develop and make some more trades/FA acquisitions to balance it out....actually, this is EXACTLY how you do it as long as drafting is good. Groome is a very good start...like DD said, 3-4 years is an eternity in MLB. You strike when the window is open, which it is.

You may not agree with certain trades but that doesnt mean that hes "All Wrong".... far from it. Dont get so attached to prospects. Identify a few and stick with them as DD has done. Then use the rest to fill the holes.

 

Not only has he been a GM for decades - he has been a very successful one. I'm not 100% sure I like the fact that we lost Kopech and Moncada but the return ain't bad. DD has been there done it and all that other stuff. He knows more certainly about his job than I do. Although he might suffer constant attack from those on here who know more than he does about building and sustaining winning programs -lol-, I like his time frame for success very much. Just guessing that his boss must approve as well.

[sk7326]

No, we don't know that. It remains to be seen.

 

I am just not a fan of the Dombrowski philosophy.

 

I am curious as to why our top scouting people, who were very good, have left.

 

Some of that is just a new boss. Some of that is fine.

 

I do share your concern on some levels. The team's scouting was among the best - as was the development and analytics. You hate losing good people.

 

Dombrowski has been a very successful executive - albeit in an older school sort of way, which is not bad. This philosophy is good for this team in the shorter run - the longer term is an open question, but I don't expect Dombrowski to be around to worry about that, so what does he care? If the team wins a title or two in the interim, it works for him. The team he has left - as you'd expect - shapes up to be very good, but yes, with a little higher risk than existed under the previous administration.

 

Again, the fascinating thing is the Red Sox breaking up a best-in-industry sort of front office. It is weird to see John Henry seeming like he has been possessed by another human being.

[Dojji]

Dombrowski is no Theo.

 

His philosophy is all wrong.

 

DD knows what he's doing. Dave Dombrowski is one of the most experienced general managers in baseball and his teams usually win far more games than they lose. His Tigers had several shining opportunities to land the big prize. They never closed the deal, but that's not the GM's fault, all he can do is make it possible, the players are the ones that need to execute the plan.

 

I get that we like the sustainable philosophy of a guy like Theo, but DD is also a very competent GM, even if his management style is radically different.

 

Consider -- when DD took over the Tigers in 2002, they were coming off a 119 loss season. 4 years later the Detroit Tigers lost the World Series in 6 games.

 

Also people forget that DD *HAS* won a World Series ring -- with the Florida Marlins even, in 1997. Then he took over the Tigers and turned one of the most hapless franchises in baseball into a perennial contender. And now he's here.

 

And I will also add, it is nice to have a unified voice coming from the front office for once. Theo never managed that, and BC only managed it until he started drawing ire from Henry over the lack of performance of the team on the ground. A unified strategy and everyone moving in the same direction is always superior to a schizophrenic mess.

[moonslav59]

Our pitching staff is set for the next 3 years with 3 CY type pitchers! Thats pretty badass. Now, when we start to shed payroll over the next three years with guys like Hanley, Buch, Panda, etc..we will then sign our young nucleus.

 

Kimbrel has 2 years left, so the best chance window is really just 2 years not 3.

 

We lose $25.5M off the budget next winter (Buch, Young & Moreland) and some more the following winter, so maybe replacing Kimbrel with an acquisition is possible.

 

Devers > Pablo

Travis> Moreland

Swihart > Young

Owens/Johnson> Buchholz

and eventually,

Hernandez> Holt

Groome > Pom

 

[Slasher9]

Adding to the fallout. Guys dealt by DD- top 100 BA style

 

#1 Moncada

#15 Espinosa

#39 Margot

#93 Kopech

 

That's mid season 2016 BA rankings. 4 top 100 guys dealt, 2 top 20. Wow

 

you mad bro? dont worry...just go throw some $$$$$ at it. you'll feel better about yourself....

[Slasher9]

At some point, it's time to abandon your pretensions and get the freaking job done. DD isn't going to stop until we've won the World Series. He'll deal with the rebuild when and if it's time to rebuild. For now he's busy trying to win. We're too close to the top right now for it to make any sense to hold back or do half measures. All in means all in.

 

And in fairness to DD, Theo and company did much the same in 2004, sacrificing quite a lot of prospects to bring the title to Boston, and yet still could turn around 3 years later and introduce a team that was significantly homegrown (Ells, Pedey, Youk, Lester, Buchholz, etc).

 

And when it comes to that, we already have a ton of young homegrown talent on the roster right now. How many prospects are we going to need to fill the outfield positions over the next 4 years? Maybe one? How many prospects are we going to need in the infield -- we could do with a good third baseman, that's about it other than maybe the persistent low level concern about Pedroia's frequent minor injuries. We have too MANY prospects at catcher. Our rotation is now so packed that starters are spilling out into the bullpen.

 

Even if we did hoard those prospects where's the impact from the farm going to be felt over the next 3 seasons? Anywhere? And even if there's some -- it won't likely compare favorably to what Chris Sale is going to give us on the top of the rotation.

 

We have a 2-3 year window where graduating prospects to fill the ranks is a luxury not a necessity. I'm just saying, consider the possibility that DD has a pretty damned good idea what he's doing and knows how to build a team, and also knows that at certain points in a team's life cycle, it's time to put the hammer down and sell out to win it big, this being one of them. I'll take that over BC's trying to run the Boston Red Sox like they were the Tampa Bay Devil Rays anyday.

 

dang good post.

[Slasher9]

Yeah S5. Trying to figure out how to get a sig going so I can put my old tag in there so people know it's me.

 

sup MeF!!!!

[mvp 78]

DD knows what he's doing. Dave Dombrowski is one of the most experienced general managers in baseball and his teams usually win far more games than they lose. His Tigers had several shining opportunities to land the big prize. They never closed the deal, but that's not the GM's fault, all he can do is make it possible, the players are the ones that need to execute the plan.

 

I get that we like the sustainable philosophy of a guy like Theo, but DD is also a very competent GM, even if his management style is radically different.

 

Consider -- when DD took over the Tigers in 2002, they were coming off a 119 loss season. 4 years later the Detroit Tigers lost the World Series in 6 games.

 

Also people forget that DD *HAS* won a World Series ring -- with the Florida Marlins even, in 1997. Then he took over the Tigers and turned one of the most hapless franchises in baseball into a perennial contender. And now he's here.

 

And I will also add, it is nice to have a unified voice coming from the front office for once. Theo never managed that, and BC only managed it until he started drawing ire from Henry over the lack of performance of the team on the ground. A unified strategy and everyone moving in the same direction is always superior to a schizophrenic mess.

 

If I was to bold the parts of this post that are important, I'd just bold the whole thing. Good post.

[Bellhorn04]

DD knows what he's doing. Dave Dombrowski is one of the most experienced general managers in baseball and his teams usually win far more games than they lose. His Tigers had several shining opportunities to land the big prize. They never closed the deal, but that's not the GM's fault, all he can do is make it possible, the players are the ones that need to execute the plan.

 

I get that we like the sustainable philosophy of a guy like Theo, but DD is also a very competent GM, even if his management style is radically different.

 

Consider -- when DD took over the Tigers in 2002, they were coming off a 119 loss season. 4 years later the Detroit Tigers lost the World Series in 6 games.

 

Also people forget that DD *HAS* won a World Series ring -- with the Florida Marlins even, in 1997. Then he took over the Tigers and turned one of the most hapless franchises in baseball into a perennial contender. And now he's here.

 

And I will also add, it is nice to have a unified voice coming from the front office for once. Theo never managed that, and BC only managed it until he started drawing ire from Henry over the lack of performance of the team on the ground. A unified strategy and everyone moving in the same direction is always superior to a schizophrenic mess.

 

We'll see if DD does better than Theo. Theo did OK in spite of the 'mess'.

[Emp9]

If I was to bold the parts of this post that are important, I'd just bold the whole thing. Good post.

 

He had me until the last paragraph.

[SoxnCycles]

He had me until the last paragraph.

 

Yup.

Is there a "unified voice" because DD is in charge, or because Larry is not?

 

As for DD putting the Tigers in position to win '13, I'm not buying it.

Everyone who watches baseball knew the Tigers had a weak bullpen and the Sox made them pay the price.

It had nothing to do with a lack of execution by a talented bullpen.

Edited December 8, 2016 by SoxnCycles

[Slasher9]

Yup.

Is there a "unified voice" because DD is in charge, or because Larry is not?

 

As for DD putting the Tigers in position to win '13, I'm not buying it.

Everyone who watches baseball knew the Tigers had a weak bullpen and the Sox made them pay the price.

It had nothing to do with a lack of execution by a talented bullpen.

 

sup SnC. excellent point about Larry.

[notin]

DD knows what he's doing. Dave Dombrowski is one of the most experienced general managers in baseball and his teams usually win far more games than they lose. His Tigers had several shining opportunities to land the big prize. They never closed the deal, but that's not the GM's fault, all he can do is make it possible, the players are the ones that need to execute the plan.

 

I get that we like the sustainable philosophy of a guy like Theo, but DD is also a very competent GM, even if his management style is radically different.

 

Consider -- when DD took over the Tigers in 2002, they were coming off a 119 loss season. 4 years later the Detroit Tigers lost the World Series in 6 games.

 

Also people forget that DD *HAS* won a World Series ring -- with the Florida Marlins even, in 1997. Then he took over the Tigers and turned one of the most hapless franchises in baseball into a perennial contender. And now he's here.

 

And I will also add, it is nice to have a unified voice coming from the front office for once. Theo never managed that, and BC only managed it until he started drawing ire from Henry over the lack of performance of the team on the ground. A unified strategy and everyone moving in the same direction is always superior to a schizophrenic mess.

 

I actually like what Dombrowski has going into 2017, but before people get too busy genuflecting, he did get fired by the Tigers, probably due to (or at least partially) the sad financial position of that team, for which he has some blame with his crazy extensions that he gave to Cabrera and Verlander. The Tigers aren't having a fire sale this off-season because they can't compete. They're having one because they can't maintain their payroll per the Collective Bargaining Agreement.

[Bellhorn04]

It's debatable about the Verlander extension being a bad deal for the Tigers. They may end up getting full value for that.

[Fan_since_Boggs]

It sounds like the Red Sox want to move Buchholz instead of Pomeranz. I would move the latter in order to bring in a better prospect. But Dombrowski is clearly in the win now mode and isn't going to trade away the better pitcher. Assuming Buchholz gets dealt, the Red Sox will have 6 starters:

 

Sale

Porcello

Price

Rodriguez

Wright

Pomeranz

 

Since Wright is so flexible, I would put him in the bullpen, but I would start him from time to time when the Red Sox play a stretch of games without a day off. In other words, I would use a 6 man rotation on occasion. An occasional 6 man rotation would keep down the innings of the other starters--the Red Sox would go into the playoffs with less wear and tear on the big 3: Sale, Porcello, and Price.

[moonslav59]

It sounds like the Red Sox want to move Buchholz instead of Pomeranz. I would move the latter in order to bring in a better prospect. But Dombrowski is clearly in the win now mode and isn't going to trade away the better pitcher. Assuming Buchholz gets dealt, the Red Sox will have 6 starters:

 

Sale

Porcello

Price

Rodriguez

Wright

Pomeranz

 

Since Wright is so flexible, I would put him in the bullpen, but I would start him from time to time when the Red Sox play a stretch of games without a day off. In other words, I would use a 6 man rotation on occasion. An occasional 6 man rotation would keep down the innings of the other starters--the Red Sox would go into the playoffs with less wear and tear on the big 3: Sale, Porcello, and Price.

 

I want the big 3 getting 100 starts. Lower their innings by using the pen more.

 

I think Pomeranz should be in the pen. He's been there before, including 58 out of 81 games prior to 2016. He was a straight starter on the farm, I might add, where as Wright did a lot of both. Wright has some pen work in the majors as well, but I think he's better utilized as a starter.

[Emp9]

I want the big 3 getting 100 starts. Lower their innings by using the pen more.

 

I think Pomeranz should be in the pen. He's been there before, including 58 out of 81 games prior to 2016. He was a straight starter on the farm, I might add, where as Wright did a lot of both. Wright has some pen work in the majors as well, but I think he's better utilized as a starter.

 

I'd go w/ Wright as the SP over Pom as well. Wright had his worst games when in bad weather. Not sure how practical it would be to have Pom stretched out enough at the ready for those situations. I'm guessing it probably isn't that practical at all. I don't blame Wright for getting hurt in the 2nd half. He was doing so well. Hate to see him get over-looked ot demoted because of that.

[moonslav59]

I'd go w/ Wright as the SP over Pom as well. Wright had his worst games when in bad weather. Not sure how practical it would be to have Pom stretched out enough at the ready for those situations. I'm guessing it probably isn't that practical at all. I don't blame Wright for getting hurt in the 2nd half. He was doing so well. Hate to see him get over-looked ot demoted because of that.

 

I agree, and the same could be said for Pom. He was doing great with SD, and then the injury ruined his second half.

[moonslav59]

As much as Lars Anderson was a disappointment, we did end up getting Steven Wright for him.

[Bellhorn04]

As much as Lars Anderson was a disappointment, we did end up getting Steven Wright for him.

 

Thanks Ben on that one.

[Emp9]

Going over some trade rumors I found Marlins had interest in Buchholz but didn't like the $13.5M price tag. But somehow they liked Volquez enough for a $13M price tag. Now sure, EV has a better chance at eating more innings than Buch, but Buch definitely has the higher ceiling and they're floors are pretty much the same in my book. Just thought that was interesting. I've been pretty critical of Buch and I'd still prefer Buchholz at that price over Volquez. Maybe that's just me?

[Bellhorn04]

Going over some trade rumors I found Marlins had interest in Buchholz but didn't like the $13.5M price tag. But somehow they liked Volquez enough for a $13M price tag. Now sure, EV has a better chance at eating more innings than Buch, but Buch definitely has the higher ceiling and they're floors are pretty much the same in my book. Just thought that was interesting. I've been pretty critical of Buch and I'd still prefer Buchholz at that price over Volquez. Maybe that's just me?

 

Presumably the Red Sox do want something in return for Buch, so you have to factor that in along with his salary.

[Kimmi]

Too funny...hes been an MLB GM for decades but hes all wrong? Id say hes done a fine job here so far. we now have 5 young and controlled positional starters for at least three years, as well as a couple position players of need still left in the system with Dvers and Travis And Delbac. Groome is also still here. Our pitching staff is set for the next 3 years with 3 CY type pitchers! Thats pretty badass. Now, when we start to shed payroll over the next three years with guys like Hanley, Buch, Panda, etc..we will then sign our young nucleous. That gives us three more years to draft, develop and make some more trades/FA acquisitions to balance it out....actually, this is EXACTLY how you do it as long as drafting is good. Groome is a very good start...like DD said, 3-4 years is an eternity in MLB. You strike when the window is open, which it is.

You may not agree with certain trades but that doesnt mean that hes "All Wrong".... far from it. Dont get so attached to prospects. Identify a few and stick with them as DD has done. Then use the rest to fill the holes.

 

It's not the trades that I disagree with. It's the overall philosophy of gutting the farm system for a 'win now' mentality. This team was in pretty good shape to 'win now' before Dombrowski further gutted the farm.

 

People seem to be forgetting that the only reason that Dombrowski is able to do what he has done is because of the strong farm system and the strong young core that were built here by Theo and Ben.

 

Disagree all you want, but building a strong franchise begins with a strong farm. Yes, you use that strong farm to fill in some holes. But you don't gut the farm at the expense of long term outlook of the team.

 

Of course Dombrowski is a good GM. I have given him credit many times where I believe it was due. However, I am very likely never going to agree with the win now at any cost philosophy, with no regard to the long term.

[Kimmi]

Not only has he been a GM for decades - he has been a very successful one. I'm not 100% sure I like the fact that we lost Kopech and Moncada but the return ain't bad. DD has been there done it and all that other stuff. He knows more certainly about his job than I do. Although he might suffer constant attack from those on here who know more than he does about building and sustaining winning programs -lol-, I like his time frame for success very much. Just guessing that his boss must approve as well.

 

Ha.

[cp176]

You are a careful reader!

[Kimmi]

Some of that is just a new boss. Some of that is fine.

 

I do share your concern on some levels. The team's scouting was among the best - as was the development and analytics. You hate losing good people.

 

Dombrowski has been a very successful executive - albeit in an older school sort of way, which is not bad. This philosophy is good for this team in the shorter run - the longer term is an open question, but I don't expect Dombrowski to be around to worry about that, so what does he care? If the team wins a title or two in the interim, it works for him. The team he has left - as you'd expect - shapes up to be very good, but yes, with a little higher risk than existed under the previous administration.

 

Again, the fascinating thing is the Red Sox breaking up a best-in-industry sort of front office. It is weird to see John Henry seeming like he has been possessed by another human being.

 

That's the key. This team is absolutely better for the shorter run. If we win a title or two, it will have been worth it.

 

My issue is that I think the team was already set up very well for the shorter term, as well as being set up very well for the longer term. Now we're set up for the shorter term only.

 

John Henry has this tendency to panic and overreact, IMO.

[Kimmi]

DD knows what he's doing. Dave Dombrowski is one of the most experienced general managers in baseball and his teams usually win far more games than they lose. His Tigers had several shining opportunities to land the big prize. They never closed the deal, but that's not the GM's fault, all he can do is make it possible, the players are the ones that need to execute the plan.

 

I get that we like the sustainable philosophy of a guy like Theo, but DD is also a very competent GM, even if his management style is radically different.

 

Consider -- when DD took over the Tigers in 2002, they were coming off a 119 loss season. 4 years later the Detroit Tigers lost the World Series in 6 games.

 

Also people forget that DD *HAS* won a World Series ring -- with the Florida Marlins even, in 1997. Then he took over the Tigers and turned one of the most hapless franchises in baseball into a perennial contender. And now he's here.

 

And I will also add, it is nice to have a unified voice coming from the front office for once. Theo never managed that, and BC only managed it until he started drawing ire from Henry over the lack of performance of the team on the ground. A unified strategy and everyone moving in the same direction is always superior to a schizophrenic mess.

 

Of course Dombrowski knows what he's doing. I never said otherwise.