Sox get Sale

[moonslav59]

Everything that was great - thanks Ben!

 

Everything that sucked - that was all Larry Lucchino!

 

I, for one, never felt that way, even with Theo.,

 

I'm sure Larry had a big influence, and maybe there wasn't total consensus on every move made, but I've always felt like the GM and owner have had the last word.

[cp176]

My question has always been how does anyone know unless they are on the inside, who has the greatest influence when it comes to making managerial decisions? if you are at the top of the food chain, I'm thinking that you are responsible for what goes on. the General Manager gets the blame as well as the credit unless the owner jumps in the way.

[mvp 78]

We will never really know who called specific shots. Who was the driving force behind signing Crawford, Panda, etc.? We can only look at the FO as a whole. Picking and choosing which guy is making certain moves is a foolish endeavor, imo.

[Wade Boggs]

I found it very enlightening to hear what Theo had to say about his time in Boston, particularly on the mistakes he made as time went by, and then to see how he has applied his learnings to how he constructed the Cubs... with a balanced approach.

 

Lester was a FA signing

 

Lackey was a FA singing

 

Jake A. was through trade

 

He traded 4 prospects for Chapman

 

Zobrist was a FA signing

 

Castro was Traded

 

Rizzo was through trade. It was I thought a prospect for prospect deal. Still great deal... great young players. A lot of vets though as well. The pitching that Theo got is what put him over the top. Trade/FA

[a700hitter]

The owner always has the final call. It is his money, but a good GM can impose his will by making a strong baseball case for his moves and understanding the budgetary constrictions. Along with the position comes accountability.

[Wade Boggs]

We will never really know who called specific shots. Who was the driving force behind signing Crawford, Panda, etc.? We can only look at the FO as a whole. Picking and choosing which guy is making certain moves is a foolish endeavor, imo.

 

Theo signed Crawford. He called Henry and Werner up in the middle of the night. Both of them not in the country. JH owned a soccer team at the time they had bizz at that part of the world. Theo thought he was getting the player that played for the rays. They gave him the green light. He did it. John Henry had doubts but did it anyway. That stuff is fact. JH went on Felger/Mazz and pretty much said it. Is it gospel. Who knows. The Crawford signing was Theo...100%

[notin]

Everything that was great - thanks Ben!

 

Everything that sucked - that was all Larry Lucchino!

 

Lucchino was easy to vilify because he just seemed so unlikable, but he had a long career in baseball front offices probably for a good reason and certainly gets all the aspects of building a team better than any of us.

 

Cherington had some flaws. And while I liked him, I repeatedly critisized his unwillingness to trade prospects. However the criticisms he gets now are short-sighted, as he was involved in building the farm that enabled Dombrowski to make his deals. It's like people are criticizing Cherington for working hard and amassing a fortune, and then praising Dombrowski for spending it all in 12 months....

[mvp 78]

Theo signed Crawford. He called Henry and Werner up in the middle of the night. Both of them not in the country. JH owned a soccer team at the time they had bizz at that part of the world. Theo thought he was getting the player that played for the rays. They gave him the green light. He did it. John Henry had doubts but did it anyway. That stuff is fact. JH went on Felger/Mazz and pretty much said it. Is it gospel. Who knows. The Crawford signing was Theo...100%

 

JH was completely unhinged on that radio appearance. I would take whatever he said with a grain of salt considering how he loves to kick people on their way out the door.

[sk7326]

JH was completely unhinged on that radio appearance. I would take whatever he said with a grain of salt considering how he loves to kick people on their way out the door.

 

JH has largely been unhinged in most of his media forays since the end of 2015. He went from a soft spoken guy who believed in quantitative modeling and whatnot and turned into a parody of Steinbrenner.

[mvp 78]

Lucchino was easy to vilify because he just seemed so unlikable, but he had a long career in baseball front offices probably for a good reason and certainly gets all the aspects of building a team better than any of us.

 

Cherington had some flaws. And while I liked him, I repeatedly critisized his unwillingness to trade prospects. However the criticisms he gets now are short-sighted, as he was involved in building the farm that enabled Dombrowski to make his deals. It's like people are criticizing Cherington for working hard and amassing a fortune, and then praising Dombrowski for spending it all in 12 months....

 

It comes down to the following: Cherington did some great things for the organization (prospects! WS!). However, he was directly responsible for last place finishes in 2014 and 2015. You need to look at both the good and the bad. Running a business and worrying about the long term is great. The problem is that Ben was unable to figure out how to stay competitive every year. That destroyed ratings and ticket sales and was ultimately bad for business.

 

Ben and DD both have their faults.

[Bellhorn04]

Theo signed Crawford. He called Henry and Werner up in the middle of the night. Both of them not in the country. JH owned a soccer team at the time they had bizz at that part of the world. Theo thought he was getting the player that played for the rays. They gave him the green light. He did it. John Henry had doubts but did it anyway. That stuff is fact. JH went on Felger/Mazz and pretty much said it. Is it gospel. Who knows. The Crawford signing was Theo...100%

 

It may well have been Theo who chose Crawford. But Larry had actually come out prior to that and prior to the Gonzo trade and virtually assured Red Sox Nation that the team was going to make 2 major acquisitions, one by free agency and one by trade. It was kind of an amazing pronouncement...it definitely seemed like the FO was anxious to assure fans that the team wasn't happy about 2 straight years with no postseason wins.

[moonslav59]

Lester was a FA signing

 

Lackey was a FA singing

 

Jake A. was through trade

 

He traded 4 prospects for Chapman

 

Zobrist was a FA signing

 

Castro was Traded

 

Rizzo was through trade. It was I thought a prospect for prospect deal. Still great deal... great young players. A lot of vets though as well. The pitching that Theo got is what put him over the top. Trade/FA

 

Yes, but he also was greatly aided by the strong farm he built first, and he kept many of them, including many good prospects still on the farm.

 

When the 2017 rankings come out, let's compare the Cubs and Sox rankings.

[Slasher9]

Yes, but he also was greatly aided by the strong farm he built first, and he kept many of them, including many good prospects still on the farm.

 

When the 2017 rankings come out, let's compare the Cubs and Sox rankings.

one of those two teams is also the reigning WS champeen.

[moonslav59]

It comes down to the following: Cherington did some great things for the organization (prospects! WS!). However, he was directly responsible for last place finishes in 2014 and 2015. You need to look at both the good and the bad. Running a business and worrying about the long term is great. The problem is that Ben was unable to figure out how to stay competitive every year. That destroyed ratings and ticket sales and was ultimately bad for business.

 

Ben and DD both have their faults.

 

True enough, but even as Theo admitted, the Sox were not a great team when Ben took over. They had serious contract issues, and recent draft picks were not as good as beforehand.

 

Yes, Ben messed up with the initial Lester offer and the Panda signing, but he was not handed the same team and farm that DD was.

 

Had HanRam and Panda just hit like their previous 2-3 years, we wouldn't have finished last.

 

What caused the collapse of 2011-2012?

 

I guess Valantine could be a big part of the blame, and I'm not sure he was Ben's 1st pick.

 

I still think the Dodger dump trade was one of the best trades ever made by the Sox. Without it, we don't win in 2013.

 

I hated losing Lester, and that can be blamed on Ben, if blame has to be assigned, but once it was clear he was going to be a FA and the 2012 season was lost, the big purge took guts and was the right thing to do.

 

We have Porcello, ERod, Kelly and Hembree to show for it. Once could argue we got C Smith as well (via Miley via de la Rosa & Webster).

 

I'm pretty certain Ben was going to pull a prospect blockbuster and sign a big FA SP'er after 2015, but we'll never know.

 

I'm glad we have Sale, Porcello and to a lesser extent Price.

 

I'm glad Ben and DD held onto Betts, Bogey, Bradley & Beni.

 

I'm glad DD held onto Devers as 3B/1B is our major concern going forward.

[moonslav59]

one of those two teams is also the reigning WS champeen.

 

Yes, and with a strong farm still intact.

 

That's the genius of Theo. That's what he did here early on, and he admitted it got away from him in his later Boston years.

 

I think Ben tried to create a balance, but his FA signings flopped after 2013.

 

Vic fell off a cliff, Dempster retired, Napoli declined and HanRam/Pablo were worse than horrible.

[Slasher9]

Theo = G.O.A.T. GM. zero debate.

[Bellhorn04]

Theo = G.O.A.T. GM. zero debate.

 

Never any debate here, that's for sure. Everyone just nods in agreement.

[Dojji]

Grossly Overrated And Terrible

 

I keed, I keed

[Wade Boggs]

Theo = G.O.A.T. GM. zero debate.

 

I agree Slash. They also had a very good manager at the time as well. Don't forget him. lol

[Kimmi]

Theo = G.O.A.T. GM. zero debate.

 

100% truth!

[Spudboy]

100% truth!

 

I would blindly agree that he was the best Sox GM during my lifetime.

 

Beyond that, I am not qualified to say and neither is anyone else here.

[mvp 78]

I don't root for FO personnel so I couldn't care less about that argument.

[moonslav59]

I think Branch Rickey is Theo's only true competition, but as always, it's hard to compare cross eras.

[cp176]

When I was a kid, I don't remember seeing any playing cards with GMs on them. I wish I cared a little more about GMs then I do I guess maybe or maybe not.Since the late 60's we have been fairly competitive. We must have had some good ones along the way. I will say that when things don't go well, they tend to get their fair share of the blame. From a players perspective that has to be a good thing.

[a700hitter]

When I was a kid, I don't remember seeing any playing cards with GMs on them. I wish I cared a little more about GMs then I do I guess maybe or maybe not.Since the late 60's we have been fairly competitive. We must have had some good ones along the way. I will say that when things don't go well, they tend to get their fair share of the blame. From a players perspective that has to be a good thing.

If all 30 GMs were walking down the street together, I might recognize 2 of them.

[Spudboy]

If all 30 GMs were walking down the street together, I might recognize 2 of them.

 

I now at least three. Cashman, Theo, and of course Dombrowski.

 

 

Edit. Duke as well.

[mvp 78]

I now at least three. Cashman, Theo, and of course Dombrowski.

 

 

Edit. Duke as well.

 

Beane and Sabean for me.

[Hugh2]

It's really hard to judge a G.M. because how many of us really know any of them other than the ones that have worked in Boston? Other than that we know Cashman because he's the Yankees G.M. and a lot of people know Billy Beane?

 

I suspect a lot of no name G.M.s could actually flourish in Boston with a a better scouting department and a much larger budget. It's kind of hard to judge a G.M. on a losing team if the ownership doesn't want to eclipse 100 million.

[Bellhorn04]

When I was a kid, I don't remember seeing any playing cards with GMs on them. I wish I cared a little more about GMs then I do I guess maybe or maybe not.Since the late 60's we have been fairly competitive. We must have had some good ones along the way. I will say that when things don't go well, they tend to get their fair share of the blame. From a players perspective that has to be a good thing.

 

I started following the Sox in 1969. I didn't pay much attention to the front office management of the team until they started doing things like not sending a new contract agreement to Carlton Fisk on time.

[cp176]

It's really hard to judge a G.M. because how many of us really know any of them other than the ones that have worked in Boston? Other than that we know Cashman because he's the Yankees G.M. and a lot of people know Billy Beane?

 

I suspect a lot of no name G.M.s could actually flourish in Boston with a a better scouting department and a much larger budget. It's kind of hard to judge a G.M. on a losing team if the ownership doesn't want to eclipse 100 million.

 

First of all I think that you are right. There probably are quite a few GMs out there who could really make a name for themselves if they had the luxury of being the lead dog in a place like Boston. In some ways it is really hard for the normal fan to actually ever know how good a GM is. I'm not knocking the ones that we have had for sure. I'm as pleased as anyone with the results we have all enjoyed. As you said, judging how good each of them is or has been is pretty tough.