Lineup Discussions

[devildavid]

Pedroia supposedly doesn't like leading off and the Sox are leading all of baseball in runs. Most ball players at that level don't like bouncing around the batting order, either. "Don't try to fix what ain't broken"

 

Jus imagine how good Pedroia would be hitting if he liked batting leadoff.

[moonslav59]

Just imagine how great this line up would be, if we didn't have all those "black holes" in it.

[oldtimer]

Just imagine how great this line up would be, if we didn't have all those "black holes" in it.

 

Don't gloat! We will face much better pitching should we reach the playoffs. Then the hitting will cool down and we will need to have great all around play to win.

[moonslav59]

Don't gloat! We will face much better pitching should we reach the playoffs. Then the hitting will cool down and we will need to have great all around play to win.

 

Yes, the hitting will get tougher when we face better pitching, but having the best offense will help.

 

One of weaknesses has been hitting on the road vs home. These past two games will narrow that gap.

 

I'm actually more excited about our starting pitching over the last month or two. We're at or near the top in the AL in most meaningful categories.

 

If our pen can get its act together, we should be the AL faves.

 

[oldtimer]

Yes, the hitting will get tougher when we face better pitching, but having the best offense will help.

 

One of weaknesses has been hitting on the road vs home. These past two games will narrow that gap.

 

I'm actually more excited about our starting pitching over the last month or two. We're at or near the top in the AL in most meaningful categories.

 

If our pen can get its act together, we should be the AL faves.

 

 

We do have Kelly and this new guy Scott, who I hadn't heard about before callups. Anyway, pitching discussions are another thread.

 

The Rays are doing us a favor by bringing Toronto down to earth, while we just have to keep playing good road ball and maybe come off the road with at least a tie in the standings. I admit to having become a little frustrated when our bull pen was giving games away. Nice to see the team coming out of the funk and know we have two young rookies who may help us now and hopefully both be contributing by mid month.

[moonslav59]

We do have Kelly and this new guy Scott, who I hadn't heard about before callups. Anyway, pitching discussions are another thread.

 

Robby Scott pitched 78 inning with Pawtucket. He had a 2.54 ERA and a fantastic 0.91 WHIP. He also had 73 Ks and only 14 BBs. His OPS against was a spectacular .608.

 

At Portland in 2015, he pitched 43.2 innings and had a 2.06 ERA and 1.03 WHIP (.553 OPS against).

 

He just turned 27. Here's what soxprospects said about him:

 

Undrafted free agent out of Florida State. Pitched minimally out of the bullpen for FSU after transferring from Broward Community College Filled out frame, strong lower half. Simple, controlled delivery. Throws from a 3/4 arm slot. Fastball sits 86-88 mph with heavy arm-side run. Able to take a little off the pitch when he wants to get more movement. Secondary offerings include a curveball and changeup. 11-5 curveball works 71-73 mph with long, two-plane break. Strong feel for the pitch.Strong feel for average-to-better 79-81 mph straight changeup that shows late drop. Large reverse platoon splits due to the effectiveness of his changeup vs. right-handed hitters. Ceiling of a low-leverage inning left-handed reliever.

 

[oldtimer]

Robby Scott pitched 78 inning with Pawtucket. He had a 2.54 ERA and a fantastic 0.91 WHIP. He also had 73 Ks and only 14 BBs. His OPS against was a spectacular .608.

 

At Portland in 2015, he pitched 43.2 innings and had a 2.06 ERA and 1.03 WHIP (.553 OPS against).

 

He just turned 27. Here's what soxprospects said about him:

 

Undrafted free agent out of Florida State. Pitched minimally out of the bullpen for FSU after transferring from Broward Community College Filled out frame, strong lower half. Simple, controlled delivery. Throws from a 3/4 arm slot. Fastball sits 86-88 mph with heavy arm-side run. Able to take a little off the pitch when he wants to get more movement. Secondary offerings include a curveball and changeup. 11-5 curveball works 71-73 mph with long, two-plane break. Strong feel for the pitch.Strong feel for average-to-better 79-81 mph straight changeup that shows late drop. Large reverse platoon splits due to the effectiveness of his changeup vs. right-handed hitters. Ceiling of a low-leverage inning left-handed reliever.

 

Well, we faced better pitching today and were unable to score. That is how it goes, so our defense and base running need to be stellar since we may face this kind of pitching there.

 

Moncada is a hitter but he did show his inexperience. Getting picked off first and making an error. With his speed, he had a good shot at stealing but instead make a rookie mistake. He will get better and probably get to play some winter ball to bring him along.

 

As far as Holt is concerned, no one expects him to be a gold glove at all the positions he plays. He is a major league hitter and a passable fielder so is a much appreciated part of the club from my perspective. Beni is not that far away so the perceived fielding issue will be resolved.

[Nick]

Just imagine how great this line up would be, if we didn't have all those "black holes" in it.

 

Nice pitching by the A's today vs no black hole lineup.

Edited September 5, 2016 by Nick

[moonslav59]

Well, we faced better pitching today and were unable to score. That is how it goes, so our defense and base running need to be stellar since we may face this kind of pitching there.

 

Moncada is a hitter but he did show his inexperience. Getting picked off first and making an error. With his speed, he had a good shot at stealing but instead make a rookie mistake. He will get better and probably get to play some winter ball to bring him along.

 

As far as Holt is concerned, no one expects him to be a gold glove at all the positions he plays. He is a major league hitter and a passable fielder so is a much appreciated part of the club from my perspective. Beni is not that far away so the perceived fielding issue will be resolved.

 

Once Papi's gone, Holt's versatility value is diminished.

 

He'll be our 6th string OF'er behind the 3 B's, Young and Swihart.

 

He'll be the 5th of 6th string 1Bman.

 

He'll be the 4th or 5th string 3bman behind Moncada, Shaw, Hernandez, Pablo and maybe Rutledge.

 

He'll be the 3rd or 4th string SS behind Bogey, Hernandez, Marrero and maybe Rutledge.

 

His best position is 2B and Pedey has that covered with Moncada clearly better as his back-up than Holt. I might even prefer Hernandez at 2B over Holt. So, he's not even going to be the #2 guy at any position. He may not even be a #3, except at one of our strongest positions- 2B.

 

[Thunder]

Once Papi's gone, Holt's versatility value is diminished.

 

He'll be our 6th string OF'er behind the 3 B's, Young and Swihart.

 

He'll be the 5th of 6th string 1Bman.

 

He'll be the 4th or 5th string 3bman behind Moncada, Shaw, Hernandez, Pablo and maybe Rutledge.

 

He'll be the 3rd or 4th string SS behind Bogey, Hernandez, Marrero and maybe Rutledge.

 

His best position is 2B and Pedey has that covered with Moncada clearly better as his back-up than Holt. I might even prefer Hernandez at 2B over Holt. So, he's not even going to be the #2 guy at any position. He may not even be a #3, except at one of our strongest positions- 2B.

 

 

Offensively, he has everyone beat at SS except Bogey. There's a reason Marrerros been stuck at AAA for so long. I don't see Swihart as part of this team going down the road, so there's definitely still value for Holt.

[moonslav59]

Nice pitching by the A's today vs no black hole lineup.

 

LOL, nice pitching by ERod too!

[moonslav59]

Offensively, he has everyone beat at SS except Bogey. There's a reason Marrerros been stuck at AAA for so long. I don't see Swihart as part of this team going down the road, so there's definitely still value for Holt.

 

There's a reason Holt only has 21 starts at SS over the last 3 years.

 

Besides, I think Hernandez might be as good or better on offense than Holt, and he's way better on defense.

 

Marrero could be behind Holt as might Rutledge, but soon Dubon will pass him.

 

Either way, even if you count Holt as our number 2 guy at SS, he's not that much better than Hernandez.

[mvp 78]

Besides, I think Hernandez might be as good or better on offense than Holt, and he's way better on defense. .

 

Hernandez isn't even in Holt's offensive stratosphere.

[Hugh2]

Hernandez isn't even in Holt's offensive stratosphere.

 

I disagree, the only thing Holt has over Hernandez is a track record at the MLB level.

[mvp 78]

Holt has a much higher OPS in AAA than Hernandez has. Once Hernandez has been up in the majors long enough to be charted, he'll start to struggle. It's not like his bat was setting the world on fire in AAA this year.

[Hugh2]

Holt has a much higher OPS in AAA than Hernandez has. Once Hernandez has been up in the majors long enough to be charted, he'll start to struggle. It's not like his bat was setting the world on fire in AAA this year.

 

Marco's OPS down there is also .787 this year, there's not a big difference in their stats. Marco's first month in AAA weigh down his overall stats. keep in mind he's also 23 and when Holt was 23 he was in AA and his numbers weren't as good. Also, if I wanted to cherry pick stats.....Marco has a better MLB slash line than Holt.

 

I think he needs more time to judge, but I don't think there's anything wrong with the statement that Hernandez might be better than him because I think he could be with the bat.

[mvp 78]

Marco's OPS down there is also .787 this year, there's not a big difference in their stats. Marco's first month in AAA weigh down his overall stats. keep in mind he's also 23 and when Holt was 23 he was in AA and his numbers weren't as good. Also, if I wanted to cherry pick stats.....Marco has a better MLB slash line than Holt.

 

I think he needs more time to judge, but I don't think there's anything wrong with the statement that Hernandez might be better than him because I think he could be with the bat.

 

Well, you already cherry picked his stats by saying his first month shouldn't count.

[Hugh2]

Well, you already cherry picked his stats by saying his first month shouldn't count.

 

so did you by looking at one level of milb ball and ignore everything else. Also, age should be taken into context as well.

[mvp 78]

so did you by looking at one level of milb ball and ignore everything else. Also, age should be taken into context as well.

 

Then feel free to look at the rest of Marco's MILB numbers which are still not as good as Brock's were.

 

Just because he's played well over a short stretch, doesn't mean that Hernandez has suddenly turned into a MLB regular.

[Hugh2]

Then feel free to look at the rest of Marco's MILB numbers which are still not as good as Brock's were.

 

Just because he's played well over a short stretch, doesn't mean that Hernandez has suddenly turned into a MLB regular.

 

I have the only real big difference is in OBP .373 to .318 but the rest of very similar numbers. Marco also has reached the majors 2 years younger than Holt whose lifetime .704 OPS doesn't exactly make him a great offensive player. Marco Hernandez has shown an obvious up progression in the upper minors which has carried over into the majors and as of so far he has much better number than Holt at the MLB level. It's a sss though, I'll admit and as I said earlier the only thing Holt has over Hernandez is a track record.....but a .704 career OPS track record doesn't exactly put someone in a "different stratosphere"

[mvp 78]

Career MILB numbers:

Hernandez - .320/.396 430 k's 131 bb's

Holt - .373-.410 277k's 187 bb's

 

Hernandez has a little more pure power (i.e. HR's) than Holt, but he strikes out a ton, walks less and still has a lower slugging than Holt.

[Hugh2]

Career MILB numbers:

Hernandez - .320/.396 430 k's 131 bb's

Holt - .373-.410 277k's 187 bb's

 

Hernandez has a little more pure power (i.e. HR's) than Holt, but he strikes out a ton, walks less and still has a lower slugging than Holt.

 

Yes but Hernandez has been much more age advances than Holt was, sometimes young skinny guys struggle. Mookie Betts had a .658 OPS his first year in the system but after putting on 15 LB's his bat just took off. Scouts agree that Hernandez filled in his skinny frame a little bit and became a much better hitter. Look at what Hernandez has done at each age vs. Holt.

 

Not saying Hernandez is clearly better than Holt as I said Holt has a track record.....But you can't say he's in a different "stratosphere" to me that implies a stark difference like Comparing Holt to Trout.

[moonslav59]

Marco

Level Age OPS

A 19-20 .604 (614 PAs)

A+ 21 .667 (486)

AA 22 .832 (294)

AAA 22-23 .752 (427)

MLB 23 .780 (50)

Holt

A 21 .810 (285)

A+ 22 .848 (218)

AA 23-24 .777 (1011)

AAA 25-28 .756 (586)

MLB 25-28 .704 (1424)

 

Maybe you're seeing something I'm not seeing, but Marco was...

 

better in AA (when 1 & 2 years younger)

 

about the same in AAA (when 3-5 years younger)

 

better at MLb level in a tiny sample size.

 

You're right, Marco is not in the same stratosphere. He's one level higher and at a younger age.

 

 

 

[moonslav59]

Career MILB numbers:

Hernandez - .320/.396 430 k's 131 bb's

Holt - .373-.410 277k's 187 bb's

 

If you want to count single A numbers when Marco was 19-20 and Holt wasn't even in the minors at that age, go ahead.

 

Hernandez is at least an equal hitter as Holt from AA to MLB. That's what really counts, and when you look at the age differences, Marco's numbers look more impressive.

[moonslav59]

Marco is a better fielder too.

[mvp 78]

Marco

Level Age OPS

A 19-20 .604 (614 PAs)

A+ 21 .667 (486)

AA 22 .832 (294)

AAA 22-23 .752 (427)

MLB 23 .780 (50)

Holt

A 21 .810 (285)

A+ 22 .848 (218)

AA 23-24 .777 (1011)

AAA 25-28 .756 (586)

MLB 25-28 .704 (1424)

 

Maybe you're seeing something I'm not seeing, but Marco was...

 

better in AA (when 1 & 2 years younger)

 

about the same in AAA (when 3-5 years younger)

 

better at MLb level in a tiny sample size.

 

You're right, Marco is not in the same stratosphere. He's one level higher and at a younger age.

 

 

 

 

Yup, those 50 AB's show that he's definitely better than former All Star Brock Holt!

[moonslav59]

Marco

Level Age OPS

A 19-20 .604 (614 PAs)

A+ 21 .667 (486)

AA 22 .832 (294)

AAA 22-23 .752 (427)

MLB 23 .780 (50)

Holt

A 21 .810 (285)

A+ 22 .848 (218)

AA 23-24 .777 (1011)

AAA 25-28 .756 (586)

MLB 25-28 .704 (1424)

 

Maybe you're seeing something I'm not seeing, but Marco was...

 

better in AA (when 1 & 2 years younger)

 

about the same in AAA (when 3-5 years younger)

 

better at MLb level in a tiny sample size.

You're right, Marco is not in the same stratosphere. He's one level higher and at a younger age.

 

 

 

 

Yup, those 50 AB's show that he's definitely better than former All Star Brock Holt!

 

 

 

 

Do they show he's not in the same stratosphere?

 

How about the 427 PAs at AAA with about the same OPS as Holt?

 

How about the 294 PAs at AA that show him higher than Holt and at a younger age?

 

Do they count?

 

Do they show him as lower than Holt?

 

If you want to look back at his single A numbers when he was 19 and Holt wasn't even in professional baseball at those ages, then you lost me.

[Spudboy]

Why are you comparing those two guys?

 

Will one be cut or moved in favor of the other?

 

I like what I see from Hernandez. But anyone suggesting getting rid of Holt should stop and think about how valuable his positional versatility is to this team.

 

Holt is a very good tool for Farrell to plug in here and there. He is not a power hitter. Big deal.

[moonslav59]

Why are you comparing those two guys?

 

Will one be cut or moved in favor of the other?

 

I like what I see from Hernandez. But anyone suggesting getting rid of Holt should stop and think about how valuable his positional versatility is to this team.

 

Holt is a very good tool for Farrell to plug in here and there. He is not a power hitter. Big deal.

 

 

Once Papi retires, the need for a widely versatile player like Holt diminishes, even if slightly.

 

Even if Pablo does not make the 25 man roster next year, there's no room for Holt and Hernandez. Yes, it would be nice to keep Hernandez in AAA as injury insurance, but that may not be a luxury we can afford.

 

The debate on these two is related to what Swihart's role will be as well. If we have Swihart on the 25 man roster as a back-up LF'er, catcher and maybe 1Bman, there's even more of a squeeze next year.

 

Somebody will likely be traded out of Holt or Swihart, but I guess it could be Hernandez. I'd argue against that, because I see Hernandez as a better fielding SS and 3Bman than Holt.

 

Holt's versatility is a big plus, but he's really not a plus fielder anywhere except maybe 2B, where he should never play due to Pedey and Moncada being on the roster.

 

Holt will be our 5th/6th string OF'er behind the 3 Bs, Young and maybe Swihart.

 

Holt will probably not play any at 1B next year (HanRam, Shaw, Pablo, Swihart? and Travis)

 

Holt will be the 4th string 3Bman, at best (Moncada, Shaw, Hernandez, Rutledge)

 

Holt may be our 3rd string SS behind Bogey and Hernandez and 2Bman behind Pedey and Moncada.

 

He's not the second option at any position. He will barely be the 3rd option anywhere next year.

 

I'm not saying we will trade him. I doubt we do. His value to a manager cannot always be captured by how much he plays. Just having someone like him on the bench allows others to be used more often. I get that.

 

Here's the roster squeeze I see, even assuming Pablo does not make it.

 

Betts, Bogey, Bradley, Pedey

HanRam, Shaw, Leon, Young

Beni, Moncada

 

these 10 + 3 more...

 

Vazquez or Swihart as the #2C

Holt or Swihart as the #3 LF'er

Holt or Hernandez as the #2 SS

 

Swihart's value as a 3rd catcher, 3rd LF'er and possibly the 3rd 1Bman is highly versatile.

We don't need Holt in the OF, if Swihart is on the roster. We don't need Holt at 3B or 1B anymore. With Moncada, he's now 3rd at 2B. Only SS is important, and he's not a good fielder there, so I'd rather have Hernandez.

 

We likely will not trade Holt or Swihart, but if we did, I'd trade Holt.

[mvp 78]

The need for versatility never diminishes.