Sox Pitching Staff Discussion

[Kimmi]

W/L%? Is this 1985?!?

 

How about his 2.8, 1.5, and 3.2 WAR over the past 3 years?

[Kimmi]

http://www.overthemonster.com/2015/12/7/9865028/red-sox-trade-rumors-wade-miley-clay-buchholz-mariners

 

Links-a-plentiful. Rosenthal was first to report that the negotiations were centered around either Miley or Buch, and the M's chose Miley even though the Sox pushed for Buchholz.

 

I don't understand the insistence on making excuses for the guy. He is what he is.

 

The way I'm reading this article and Rosenthal's tweets, it sounds like he wasn't initially sure which of the two pitchers the trade was centered around. I might have missed it, but nowhere did I see that the Sox pushed for Buchholz in that trade.

 

Maybe the Sox did offer either Buchholz or Miley, and the Mariners chose Miley for reasons that have nothing to do with a disinterest in Clay, but even with that, that's not the same as the Sox pushing Buchholz.

 

As far as making excuses for Clay, I don't think anyone is trying to make excuses for his performance so far this year. He has not been good, plain and simple. People are just defending the decision to pick up his option, which was the right decision, regardless of how terrible Clay pitches this year.

[robert vonhalle]

The way I'm reading this article and Rosenthal's tweets, it sounds like he wasn't initially sure which of the two pitchers the trade was centered around. I might have missed it, but nowhere did I see that the Sox pushed for Buchholz in that trade.

 

Maybe the Sox did offer either Buchholz or Miley, and the Mariners chose Miley for reasons that have nothing to do with a disinterest in Clay, but even with that, that's not the same as the Sox pushing Buchholz.

 

As far as making excuses for Clay, I don't think anyone is trying to make excuses for his performance so far this year. He has not been good, plain and simple. People are just defending the decision to pick up his option, which was the right decision, regardless of how terrible Clay pitches this year.

 

think have to live with buchholz as the #5 the rest of this year!

[harmony]

I'm still failing to see how this proves some major point? The 2015 Last place Red Sox had a better record than the Mariners. I was talking about the Sox trading Buch to a Playoff contender for the '15 trade deadline (if healthy, I'm sure it would have happened). As reasonable as Buch's contract is, Miley's contract was not only reasonable, it's a downright bargain in comparison to most. Taking Miley was clearly the better deal for a losing team. This hardly proves anything.

That "losing" Seattle club currently sits in first place, a half game worse than the Red Sox with the same number of losses, after fading in the final 10 days of 2015 to finish two games behind the Red Sox.

 

This year Wade Miley is precisely on pace for 200 innings with 50 innings recorded in eight starts. Miley's ERA of 4.32 and ERA+ of 89 are nothing great but the lefthander had an ERA of 9.44 in his first 16.2 innings this year and has an ERA of 1.90 in 33.1 innings since.

 

This Seattle fan was worried after watching this video of Miley blowup's with John Farrell last season:

 

 

... but was pleased this week to read USA Today quoting the lefthander describing his Seattle experience thus far: “This is the most fun I’ve ever had.’’

 

http://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/columnist/bob-nightengale/2016/05/16/mlb-mariners-jerry-dipoto-robinson-cano/84448414/

 

Winning and chemistry invite a chicken-or-egg analysis, but I enjoyed this recent column by a Seattle blogger:

 

http://www.lookoutlanding.com/2016/5/10/11648102/pedagogy-of-the-depressed

[mvp 78]

How about his 2.8, 1.5, and 3.2 WAR over the past 3 years?

 

Don't give me that fangraphs trash. He had a negative war in 2014 according to baseball ref.

[Dojji]

How badly did we need that start from Joe Kelly?

[Emp9]

That "losing" Seattle club currently sits in first place, a half game worse than the Red Sox with the same number of losses, after fading in the final 10 days of 2015 to finish two games behind the Red Sox.

 

This year Wade Miley is precisely on pace for 200 innings with 50 innings recorded in eight starts. Miley's ERA of 4.32 and ERA+ of 89 are nothing great but the lefthander had an ERA of 9.44 in his first 16.2 innings this year and has an ERA of 1.90 in 33.1 innings since.

 

This Seattle fan was worried after watching this video of Miley blowup's with John Farrell last season:

 

 

... but was pleased this week to read USA Today quoting the lefthander describing his Seattle experience thus far: “This is the most fun I’ve ever had.’’

 

http://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/columnist/bob-nightengale/2016/05/16/mlb-mariners-jerry-dipoto-robinson-cano/84448414/

 

Winning and chemistry invite a chicken-or-egg analysis, but I enjoyed this recent column by a Seattle blogger:

 

http://www.lookoutlanding.com/2016/5/10/11648102/pedagogy-of-the-depressed

 

Oh boy here we go LOL. Did I say something wrong or inaccurate? I think not. I thought Miley was a great pick up for Sea & I'm happy to see them doing well this year.

[User Name]

The way I'm reading this article and Rosenthal's tweets, it sounds like he wasn't initially sure which of the two pitchers the trade was centered around. I might have missed it, but nowhere did I see that the Sox pushed for Buchholz in that trade.

 

Maybe the Sox did offer either Buchholz or Miley, and the Mariners chose Miley for reasons that have nothing to do with a disinterest in Clay, but even with that, that's not the same as the Sox pushing Buchholz.

 

As far as making excuses for Clay, I don't think anyone is trying to make excuses for his performance so far this year. He has not been good, plain and simple. People are just defending the decision to pick up his option, which was the right decision, regardless of how terrible Clay pitches this year.

 

If there was real interest in Buchholz, he would likely be in another uniform right now, with Miley making starts from the 5 spot.

 

The mention of his WAR, by the way, is a prime example of excuse making. I have agreed several times that picking up his option was pretty much an obligation, but let's call a spade a spade. The guy hasn't combined run prevention with durability in six years. Why was this year going to be different?

[Bellhorn04]

Buchholz had a 2.7 bWAR last year of course...

[SinceYaz]

this is terrible news (for us Red Sox fans). get ready to say goodbye to some of our prospects......

 

I have a suggestion for the days Clay pitches .... It's a little like little league and girl's softball. When we see Clay begin to struggle, pull him immediately and let Holt pitch for that inning. I hear from the talking heads that Clay is a superb athlete. Let him shag in LF, spread out Mookie and JBJ to help out. When the next inning comes up, let Clay pitch again.

 

I know there are inherent problems (Can Holt pitch? What do we do with Clay's atbat ... there's a DH in the AL and what else in the NL) with this scenario, but there are when Clay pitches anyway.

[SinceYaz]

This Seattle fan ...

 

harmony

 

 

Is that you, Hill?

[Bellhorn04]

This Seattle fan ...

 

harmony

 

Is that you, Hill?

 

It could be no other.

[harmony]

This Seattle fan ...

 

harmony

 

Is that you, Hill?

Yes ... I have used harmony on most baseball forums over the past decade.

 

Best regards.

[Kimmi]

Don't give me that fangraphs trash. He had a negative war in 2014 according to baseball ref.

 

You may not like it, but the way that Fangraphs computes WAR for pitchers is legit and valid. That's not to say that it's perfect, but it's certainly not trash. There is most definitely value to innings pitched and validity to FIP.

[Kimmi]

If there was real interest in Buchholz, he would likely be in another uniform right now, with Miley making starts from the 5 spot.

 

The mention of his WAR, by the way, is a prime example of excuse making. I have agreed several times that picking up his option was pretty much an obligation, but let's call a spade a spade. The guy hasn't combined run prevention with durability in six years. Why was this year going to be different?

 

You don't know that. Maybe the Sox saw more value in him as a starter in our rotation than as a trade chip. It would have been rather costly to try to replace him.

 

How is the mention of WAR making excuses for Buchholz' performance this year? The mention of WAR was solely for the purpose of defending the decision to pick up his option, nothing more. No one has claimed that he would pitch 200 innings at ace level. No one.

 

No one has claimed that he is pitching well this season or that he is earning his $13 mil.

 

In other words, no one is making excuses for him. As I said, there is a difference between defending his option and making excuses for the way he is pitching this season.

[Kimmi]

Buchholz had a 2.7 bWAR last year of course...

 

And a 4.3 bWAR in 2013.

[Dojji]

and if any of that actually mattered teams would actually want him. there has been no suggestion from a non-Red Sox non-Boston source of any interest at all in obtaining Buchholz from the Red Sox. In other words no other team and the media in no other baseball market is thinking ''hey, we need to acquire Clay Buchholz, he can help us.''

 

Abstractions like WAR aside I find that very telling when considering his REAL value. As sick as i am of the sadistic carnival ride ride the guy has been for us, we're pretty much stuck with Buchholz, more's the pity

Edited May 22, 2016 by Dojji

[mvp 78]

And a 4.3 bWAR in 2013.

 

One of the many years he could only manage half a season. Oh joy!

[mvp 78]

You may not like it, but the way that Fangraphs computes WAR for pitchers is legit and valid. That's not to say that it's perfect, but it's certainly not trash. There is most definitely value to innings pitched and validity to FIP.

 

If he had a positive WAR in 2014, the claculation is nonsense. Just look at his other stats. They are horrible. Until there is only one way to calculate WAR, it's a nonessential stat to me.

[CliffKlowers]

The NESN announcers like many of us have noticed that Buccholz gets burned by one bad pitch in many of his losses. Take away that bad pitch and the remainder of the game was good.

[Bellhorn04]

and if any of that actually mattered teams would actually want him. there has been no suggestion from a non-Red Sox non-Boston source of any interest at all in obtaining Buchholz from the Red Sox. In other words no other team and the media in no other baseball market is thinking ''hey, we need to acquire Clay Buchholz, he can help us.''

 

Abstractions like WAR aside I find that very telling when considering his REAL value. As sick as i am of the sadistic carnival ride ride the guy has been for us, we're pretty much stuck with Buchholz, more's the pity

 

First of all we know that the Red Sox wanted him.

 

Secondly we don't know squat about what other teams have shown interest.

[User Name]

The NESN announcers like many of us have noticed that Buccholz gets burned by one bad pitch in many of his losses. Take away that bad pitch and the remainder of the game was good.

 

Where I come from we call that "rationalization". A bad outing is a bad outing is a bad outing.

[User Name]

You don't know that. Maybe the Sox saw more value in him as a starter in our rotation than as a trade chip. It would have been rather costly to try to replace him.

 

How is the mention of WAR making excuses for Buchholz' performance this year? The mention of WAR was solely for the purpose of defending the decision to pick up his option, nothing more. No one has claimed that he would pitch 200 innings at ace level. No one.

 

No one has claimed that he is pitching well this season or that he is earning his $13 mil.

 

In other words, no one is making excuses for him. As I said, there is a difference between defending his option and making excuses for the way he is pitching this season.

 

The NESN announcers like many of us have noticed that Buccholz gets burned by one bad pitch in many of his losses. Take away that bad pitch and the remainder of the game was good.

 

Riiiiiiiiight.

[Dojji]

First of all we know that the Red Sox wanted him.

 

Secondly we don't know squat about what other teams have shown interest.

 

but the fact that nobody's media is showing interest is telling.

[mvp 78]

Where I come from we call that "rationalization". A bad outing is a bad outing is a bad outing.

 

It's funny how "one bad pitch" turns into 4 runs. Really tough to do when the bases are empty. Must have been an in the park quadruple homerun?

[a700hitter]

Where I come from we call that "rationalization". A bad outing is a bad outing is a bad outing.

In Brookyn, we call such Excuses BS

[Spudboy]

Lol.

 

I refuse to expend much more energy discussing Laptop.

[Slasher9]

It's funny how "one bad pitch" turns into 4 runs. Really tough to do when the bases are empty. Must have been an in the park quadruple homerun?

 

You know 1 of those runs was unearned, right?

[mvp 78]

You know 1 of those runs was unearned, right?

 

An unearned homerun?

[CliffKlowers]

Are you saying that giving up four consecutive HRs is the same as three walks followed by a HR? In which case is the pitcher better or is it a tie? Perhaps a pitching coach, a manager, and intelligent fan are not needed and one should only look at the box score instead. Follow the game via telegraph instead of watch it on TV. Right?