Referendum on John Farrell

[SoxHop]

Managers are often given way too much credit when their team's win and certainly too much blame when they lose. The good ones take responsibility for the losses and give all the credit to their players with respect to the wins. Farrell makes the cut.

 

I think he just makes the cut.

 

That 11 game run was magnificent...... he did do that.......

[Kimmi]

If I was to bet my life, or life savings, or bet it all, I would wan't the absolute best chance of winning. Playoffs are like that.

 

Home field advantage may only be a couple of percentage points, having your team prepped for the playoffs may only be a couple of percentage point advantage. Having your team play loose and ready for the playoffs may only be a couple of percentage point advantage to winning a series.

 

I didn't see any of that done this year.

 

We still may have lost with all those percentage points going our way. But after seeing the results, I am swayed to think something went wrong.

 

What went wrong is that we were outplayed by a team that is playing very good baseball right now.

 

It was a short series. You really can't conclude anything from what happens in a short series. All this mumbo jumbo about home field advantage, Farrell didn't have the players ready, etc. is just that - mumbo jumbo.

[Kimmi]

Managers are often given way too much credit when their team's win and certainly too much blame when they lose. The good ones take responsibility for the losses and give all the credit to their players with respect to the wins. Farrell makes the cut.

 

I like this post.

[Spudboy]

What went wrong is that we were outplayed by a team that is playing very good baseball right now.

 

It was a short series. You really can't conclude anything from what happens in a short series. All this mumbo jumbo about home field advantage, Farrell didn't have the players ready, etc. is just that - mumbo jumbo.

 

True. However they lost eight of the last nine. In total, that was not a short series. That is a good sample size.

 

They were out pitched and out played. At a very visible time of year.

[Kimmi]

True. However they lost eight of the last nine. In total, that was not a short series. That is a good sample size.

 

They were out pitched and out played. At a very visible time of year.

 

No, it wasn't a short series, but still a short enough period of time not to make anything of it. All teams go through stretches like that. Ours just happened to come at a very visible time, as you said.

 

Two of the losses were by 2 runs, and 4 of the losses were by 1 run. Those close losses or wins usually have more to do with randomness/luck than anything else.

 

I'm not sweating it as any shortcoming of the team and/or manager.

[oldtimer]

True. However they lost eight of the last nine. In total, that was not a short series. That is a good sample size.

 

They were out pitched and out played. At a very visible time of year.

 

I think it was Albert Einstein that said Doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results is a definition of insanity. Let us hope we can make the necessary improvements so we can get better results in 2017. We only have this core group of strong young players for the next few years. The time to move forward is now.

[cp176]

I have used that expression many times myself. We went from last place to first place. it was a great season. I think that we are definitely heading in the right direction.

[sk7326]

If I was to bet my life, or life savings, or bet it all, I would wan't the absolute best chance of winning. Playoffs are like that.

 

Home field advantage may only be a couple of percentage points, having your team prepped for the playoffs may only be a couple of percentage point advantage. Having your team play loose and ready for the playoffs may only be a couple of percentage point advantage to winning a series.

 

I didn't see any of that done this year.

 

We still may have lost with all those percentage points going our way. But after seeing the results, I am swayed to think something went wrong.

 

Something DID go wrong! Cleveland outscored us three times.

[SoxHop]

Something DID go wrong! Cleveland outscored us three times.

 

Nope...... I'm not buying it. People put it in overdrive in pressure situations. Or they don't. And we just fell flat after the "we have a spot in the playoff" party.

 

I don't think it is a huge sway, but it may have come in to factor in at least one game in the series, and then who knows what would have happened.

 

I played serious competitive tee ball quite a bit in my life time when I was about 10. There are coaches that can lift you up, and there are coaches that can't. There is something there to that.

 

We dropped off the planet as soon as we looked to clench.

 

I bet you Farrell learned a bunch the hard way this post season......

 

Also..... in tee ball I liked playing in certain parks. They just fit me. I knew the hole from the pitchers mound where I landed, I knew where to step when I released. It was just more comfortable. And there were some parks I visited where the other team just looked more comfortable. They were already ahead of me in the game.

 

There's the whole saying about playoff experience.......... I think there is home field advantage experience too. It might be slight, but it might have stopped a 3 game sweep in my mind.

[Bellhorn04]

Nope...... I'm not buying it. People put it in overdrive in pressure situations. Or they don't. And we just fell flat after the "we have a spot in the playoff" party.

 

I don't think it is a huge sway, but it may have come in to factor in at least one game in the series, and then who knows what would have happened.

 

I played serious competitive tee ball quite a bit in my life time when I was about 10. There are coaches that can lift you up, and there are coaches that can't. There is something there to that.

 

We dropped off the planet as soon as we looked to clench.

 

I bet you Farrell learned a bunch the hard way this post season......

 

Also..... in tee ball I liked playing in certain parks. They just fit me. I knew the hole from the pitchers mound where I landed, I knew where to step when I released. It was just more comfortable. And there were some parks I visited where the other team just looked more comfortable. They were already ahead of me in the game.

 

There's the whole saying about playoff experience.......... I think there is home field advantage experience too. It might be slight, but it might have stopped a 3 game sweep in my mind.

 

Terry Francona is and was a great manager, and we lost 2 3-game sweeps under him too.

[sk7326]

Nope...... I'm not buying it. People put it in overdrive in pressure situations. Or they don't. And we just fell flat after the "we have a spot in the playoff" party.

 

I don't think it is a huge sway, but it may have come in to factor in at least one game in the series, and then who knows what would have happened.

 

I played serious competitive tee ball quite a bit in my life time when I was about 10. There are coaches that can lift you up, and there are coaches that can't. There is something there to that.

 

We dropped off the planet as soon as we looked to clench.

 

I bet you Farrell learned a bunch the hard way this post season......

 

Also..... in tee ball I liked playing in certain parks. They just fit me. I knew the hole from the pitchers mound where I landed, I knew where to step when I released. It was just more comfortable. And there were some parks I visited where the other team just looked more comfortable. They were already ahead of me in the game.

 

There's the whole saying about playoff experience.......... I think there is home field advantage experience too. It might be slight, but it might have stopped a 3 game sweep in my mind.

 

The same Yankees who won three titles in a row lost multiple best of 7s at home! Did they suddenly lose their clutchy McClutcherson-ness. The same principals participated in the biggest choke in baseball history. One of their actual titles (2000 IIRC) featured a 5 game losing streak to end the season. The Cardinals had a sub .500 September, ended the season 83-79 and won the whole darn thing.

 

The 2009 Red Sox got swept out despite a lot of people who were on the 2007 title winner. Did Pedroia suddenly grow dumb or get the yips? It's baseball - good teams lose three in a row to inferior competition all the time. Indeed, it is quite rare for the league's best team to win the World Series - between pitching rotations and general luck, it is just the way it is. (remember, when Luis Gonzalez hit the walk off single in the 2001 World Series, that was him not making good contact against a basically perfect cutter)

[Dojji]

it's the magical thinking of armchair managers everywhere. They recognize in concept that some things are out of a manager's control but insist that somehow this one is special andmanagers must be able to wave a magic wand and fix the broken thing and make it go, just this one time, and rail on them for not doing so, even when they know full well that a manager is just as susceptible to the vagueries of chance as anyone else.

 

Believe me folks, if managers really could do some deal with the devil to manipulate the random chance that can easily overwhelm all the best laid plans, there wouldn't be a soul left unsold in any coaching staff in all of baseball

Edited October 23, 2016 by Dojji

[cp176]

Nope...... I'm not buying it. People put it in overdrive in pressure situations. Or they don't. And we just fell flat after the "we have a spot in the playoff" party.

 

I don't think it is a huge sway, but it may have come in to factor in at least one game in the series, and then who knows what would have happened.

 

I played serious competitive tee ball quite a bit in my life time when I was about 10. There are coaches that can lift you up, and there are coaches that can't. There is something there to that.

 

We dropped off the planet as soon as we looked to clench.

 

I bet you Farrell learned a bunch the hard way this post season......

 

Also..... in tee ball I liked playing in certain parks. They just fit me. I knew the hole from the pitchers mound where I landed, I knew where to step when I released. It was just more comfortable. And there were some parks I visited where the other team just looked more comfortable. They were already ahead of me in the game.

 

There's the whole saying about playoff experience.......... I think there is home field advantage experience too. It might be slight, but it might have stopped a 3 game sweep in my mind.

 

Kind of like everything I ever really needed to learn I learned in Kindergarten. Tee ball experiences count too!

[Bellhorn04]

it's the magical thinking of armchair managers everywhere. They recognize in concept that some things are out of a manager's control but insist that somehow this one is special and managers must be able to wave a magic wand and fix the broken thing and mke it go this time and rail on them for not doing so, even when they know full well that a manager is just as susceptible to the vagueries of chance as anyone else.

 

Truth.

[oldtimer]

it's the magical thinking of armchair managers everywhere. They recognize in concept that some things are out of a manager's control but insist that somehow this one is special andmanagers must be able to wave a magic wand and fix the broken thing and make it go, just this one time, and rail on them for not doing so, even when they know full well that a manager is just as susceptible to the vagueries of chance as anyone else.

 

Believe me folks, if managers really could do some deal with the devil to manipulate the random chance that can easily overwhelm all the best laid plans, there wouldn't be a soul left unsold in any coaching staff in all of baseball

 

So in your opinion, managers don't have any responsibility for the way the team plays? All that happens comes down to random chance?

[Dojji]

So in your opinion, random straw man that has nothing to do with anything you said either?

 

Sorry, I'm feeing a bit lazy at the moment, and if I'm honest, your post isn't even worth dignifying with a proper snarking.

[SoxHop]

A manager, needs to set the tone and I believe they have, or some have, the ability to do that. That's not to say that a great manager will miss the mark and not set the tone correctly sometimes, and the other way for a poor manager.

 

The tone wasn't set for this playoff.

 

Do you all think Farrell is sitting at home thinking how he managed the playoff run perfectly and how he wouldn't change a thing and that it's all the players fault? He swung and wiffed.

 

He's obviously did a pretty good job this year setting the tone and getting this team to the playoffs, but the proof is in the pudding at the end.

 

How much sway does a manager have or home field advantage have, I'm not sure. Maybe only a few percentage points per game. But it went horribly wrong the last 10 games.

 

He's the captain and steers the boat. We hit an ice burg.

[Slasher9]

apparently every year there is only 1 worthy manager.

[mvp 78]

I can fault Farrell for a lot of things throughout the year, but I think he was fine during the playoffs. The bats went silent and the starting pitching was bad. Even a great manager wouldn't have overcome that.

[sk7326]

A manager, needs to set the tone and I believe they have, or some have, the ability to do that. That's not to say that a great manager will miss the mark and not set the tone correctly sometimes, and the other way for a poor manager.

 

The tone wasn't set for this playoff.

 

Do you all think Farrell is sitting at home thinking how he managed the playoff run perfectly and how he wouldn't change a thing and that it's all the players fault? He swung and wiffed.

 

He's obviously did a pretty good job this year setting the tone and getting this team to the playoffs, but the proof is in the pudding at the end.

 

How much sway does a manager have or home field advantage have, I'm not sure. Maybe only a few percentage points per game. But it went horribly wrong the last 10 games.

 

He's the captain and steers the boat. We hit an ice burg.

 

Lost two one run games - including one at Fenway. And ran into the buzzsaw of the Cleveland bullpen - which as it turns out, does not make us special.

 

Farrell probably wonders what he could have done that was different - because he is a disappointed person and that's what you do. The reality is the answer is - not much. When your strategy is built around your top two starters pitching well and they don't ... it is hard for anything else to matter.

 

But there is very little that can be done to guarantee playoff results - the Yankees won three titles and then spit the bit twice with home field advantage - I guess Derek Jeter became stupid.

[Kimmi]

So in your opinion, managers don't have any responsibility for the way the team plays? All that happens comes down to random chance?

 

I think managers and the coaching staff bear some responsibility for the way the team plays throughout the season, on the whole. I have said many times that the most important aspect of the manager's job is what takes place off the field. Things like instilling trust and confidence in the players and creating a positive clubhouse atmosphere are factors that I believe help a team to perform better on the field.

 

I am speaking in general terms over the course of the season though. A manager is not going to be able to make his team perform better for any particular series or stretch. Likewise, a manager is not responsible if the team performs poorly for a particular series or stretch. Those things just happen as part of baseball.

 

IMO, it's ridiculous to think that the team lost to Cleveland because Farrell did not have the team ready or 'pumped up' or anything along those lines.

[Kimmi]

On the topic of managers, congrats to two of my favorite baseball people, Terry Francona and Dave Roberts for winning MOTY.

 

I'm so glad that Roberts won the award over Maddon. Ha!

[SoxHop]

So what about playoff experience? That would seem to be much about nothing too then?

 

Haven't you all seen those sports movies where the good person but lesser of the two teams is losing big at the half, and then the coach gives a super motivating speech during the half time break instilling confidence in the lessor team and they come back in the second half and win.

 

I guess you all think that is theatrics huh?

[S5Dewey]

So what about playoff experience? That would seem to be much about nothing too then?

 

Haven't you all seen those sports movies where the good person but lesser of the two teams is losing big at the half, and then the coach gives a super motivating speech during the half time break instilling confidence in the lessor team and they come back in the second half and win.

 

I guess you all think that is theatrics huh?

 

On the professional level, yes.

[SoxHop]

Well, how ever Farrell handled it, it went completely wrong. Maybe he handled it perfectly and prevented three blowouts. Maybe he handled it perfectly and we got what we got. I think you have to speculate a bit, and not leave it to the wind that things could have been better or different.

 

I think the team playing better won. I don't think a manager could have changed the course of the series other than a game or two. But, we were pretty listless...... in fact I don't think I saw that team play that way all year.

[cp176]

Well, how ever Farrell handled it, it went completely wrong. Maybe he handled it perfectly and prevented three blowouts. Maybe he handled it perfectly and we got what we got. I think you have to speculate a bit, and not leave it to the wind that things could have been better or different.

 

I think the team playing better won. I don't think a manager could have changed the course of the series other than a game or two. But, we were pretty listless...... in fact I don't think I saw that team play that way all year.

 

I actually kind of agree with you a little bit although I think that inspiration can produce better results more easily in football (control the los) and in basketball (challenge someone to step up defensively) the two sports that I do actually know something about other than baseball and golf. i do think that this team falls short when it comes to playing with excitement and enthusiasm. Every now and then , we have seen some glimmers of adrenaline rushes but maybe not often enough. All players will tell you that they hate to lose it is just that some hate to lose more than others. I like those types of players and coaches.

[moonslav59]

I'd rather have Tito or Madden.

 

I'm not blaming our ending on JF (I try to avoid the blame game), but I don't think he helped much.

[Bellhorn04]

On the topic of managers, congrats to two of my favorite baseball people, Terry Francona and Dave Roberts for winning MOTY.

 

I'm so glad that Roberts won the award over Maddon. Ha!

 

Just for clarification, these were the Sporting News MOTY awards. The MLB awards will come after the WS.

[Bellhorn04]

Well, how ever Farrell handled it, it went completely wrong. Maybe he handled it perfectly and prevented three blowouts. Maybe he handled it perfectly and we got what we got. I think you have to speculate a bit, and not leave it to the wind that things could have been better or different.

 

I think the team playing better won. I don't think a manager could have changed the course of the series other than a game or two. But, we were pretty listless...... in fact I don't think I saw that team play that way all year.

 

There's that old adage about running into a buzz saw. I think that's what happened.

 

All you have to do is look at the Jays. Unlike us, they came into the series against Cleveland red hot, winning their last 2 of the regular season, the Wild Card game and sweeping out Texas. Then Cleveland shut them down just like they did to us.

[S5Dewey]

There's that old adage about running into a buzz saw. I think that's what happened.

 

Let's roll back to 2004. The Red Sox come from a 3-0 deficit to beat the Yankees, then beat St. Lous 4 games to 0. I've always thought that the Cards were a better team than they showed in that series but had the misfortune to step in front of a rolling freight train.

 

Now let's go forward three years. The Sox come back from being behind the Guardians 3-0, then sweep 4 straight from the Angels, then take four straight games from the then-hot Rockies. Two rolling freight trains collided, but the Rockies may have been suffering from the same malady that the Sox were suffering from this year, being unable to sustain a long winning streak.

 

Sometimes it's hard to stop one of those trains!