Referendum on John Farrell

[Maxbialystock]

If you think I only post about Pedroia (I hardly ever post about him), Buchholz and Farrell, then you haven't been paying attention... Which would actually make a lot of sense.

 

You post on lots of things and I agree with a lot of what you say. But every time you post, you also say, "Trade Pedroia. Fire Farrell. Put Buchholz on waivers." That, sir, is a mantra and a contentious one at that.

[Maxbialystock]

He isn't the whole problem; he isn't even most of the problem. But he IS part of the problem.

 

Meh. When the pitching is this bad and the team is still winning enough to be--right now--in the playoffs, it's pretty hard to justify firing the manager or even say he is part of the problem.

[mvp 78]

You post on lots of things and I agree with a lot of what you say. But every time you post, you also say, "Trade Pedroia. Fire Farrell. Put Buchholz on waivers." That, sir, is a mantra and a contentious one at that.

 

It's in my signature. Don't know what else to say about that.

[User Name]

lolwow

[VA Sox Fan]

Farrell is not going anywhere. It's mid-season and we're not in last place.

 

Everyone needs to find something else to whine about. Thanks.....

[cp176]

I'm not even a Farrell supporter but he really has done nothing that comes to warrant being fired. Pretty sure that DD understands what is going on. So far, his moves have seemed rationale and consistent. Firing Farrell because players have been injured and some on the pitching staff have simply sucked would be an irrational move. Many of us probably feel that his in game managing is suspect but his loyalty to players and the fact that he is willing to make some changes should also be a part of the gig. Like him or not, he is a professional and apparently above a lot of the crap that goes along with the job.

The inmates are not running the asylum.

[Kimmi]

Farrell is not going anywhere. It's mid-season and we're not in last place.

 

Everyone needs to find something else to whine about. Thanks.....

 

Once again, a point well made in so few words.

 

You really should post more often VA. You are awesome.

[devildavid]

Even though I have turned against Farrell, his job is probably secure for the rest of the season. He is not a terrible manager, but I don't like some of his overall philosophy. He could still win another championship this season, but I will not change my mind about him. I started off strongly defending him but now I wouldn't mind if the Sox looked elsewhere for a manager. He is signed through 2017 so I could see him coming back next season to finish out the guaranteed part of his contract. The team has the option to pick him up for 2018 but that is too far off to even speculate about. A good playoff run will help him a lot and a championship may secure the last year of his deal.

[mvp 78]

No way do they come back next year with a lame duck manager. If Farrell is still on board, he gets an extension in the offseason.

[georom4]

It's not Jf's fault that Cherington dismantled the pitching staff and left it in tatters. Price has underperformed as has every hurler not named Wright but that's on them. This team is good enough to compete for a playoff spot - why would you fire him now? Dumb

[mvp 78]

It's not Jf's fault that Cherington dismantled the pitching staff and left it in tatters. Price has underperformed as has every hurler not named Wright but that's on them. This team is good enough to compete for a playoff spot - why would you fire him now? Dumb

 

At some point, the coaching staff needs to know how to fix struggling pitchers. They have no clue how to harness Buchholz or Kelly. It also doesn't help that the guy who leads the team in appearances is a 40 year old reliever with health concerns.

[greenwell]

I agree with you that the coaching staff needs some of the blame. If you look at the stats the pitching staff as a whole is not that bad. 9th in the league in ERA, 4th in QS. The ERA is lowered considerably because the last two starters have been historically bad. If a couple of the new or old starters could give us a 5 ERA things wouldn't look that bad from a starter standpoint. The bullpen has been hit hard by injuries, maybe a converted Kelly will help.

 

 

At some point, the coaching staff needs to know how to fix struggling pitchers. They have no clue how to harness Buchholz or Kelly. It also doesn't help that the guy who leads the team in appearances is a 40 year old reliever with health concerns.

[Kimmi]

I'm still on the fence about Farrell. I don't think that he's that bad in terms of in game decisions. However, the number of underperformances and the degree of those underperformances over the past 2 1/2 years leads me to question the coaching staff, namely Farrell. He is reported to be well-liked and respected by his players, yet there seems to be some disconnect when it comes to players playing to their potential.

[jacksonianmarch]

When you have a supremely talented, veteran team, an ego manager is what you need. When you have a moderately talented, young team, a true coach is what you need. When you have an undertalented team, a game manage might win your a few. The sox are a young, supremely talented offensive team and an undertalented veteran pitching team. Farrell can manage the offensive egos and has proven his leadership allows young position players to grow and thrive. He has proven to be a horrendous game manager, especially on the pitching side, and for someone who was praised as a pitching coach, he has shown absolutely no progression in terms of development of pitching talent.

[greenwell]

Is that still his job though? Shouldn't he be able to rely on his pitching coach to look over video and watch mechanics to figure out what's wrong with these guys? Case in point is the Pedroia/Price thing.

 

 

When you have a supremely talented, veteran team, an ego manager is what you need. When you have a moderately talented, young team, a true coach is what you need. When you have an undertalented team, a game manage might win your a few. The sox are a young, supremely talented offensive team and an undertalented veteran pitching team. Farrell can manage the offensive egos and has proven his leadership allows young position players to grow and thrive. He has proven to be a horrendous game manager, especially on the pitching side, and for someone who was praised as a pitching coach, he has shown absolutely no progression in terms of development of pitching talent.

[mvp 78]

I'm still on the fence about Farrell. I don't think that he's that bad in terms of in game decisions. However, the number of underperformances and the degree of those underperformances over the past 2 1/2 years leads me to question the coaching staff, namely Farrell. He is reported to be well-liked and respected by his players, yet there seems to be some disconnect when it comes to players playing to their potential.

 

He does have great relations with reporters though.

[Maxbialystock]

At some point, the coaching staff needs to know how to fix struggling pitchers. They have no clue how to harness Buchholz or Kelly. It also doesn't help that the guy who leads the team in appearances is a 40 year old reliever with health concerns.

 

Why are pitching coaches supposed to magically fix all pitching issues? If you are right, than it was idiocy to pay big bucks for Price and Kimbrell because the pitching coach could have made Buch or Kelly or whoever into a top of the line starter and Tazawa into a great closer.

 

There is a reason why the average AL team has 12 pitchers to cover just one position (which doesn't go to bat) and 13 to cover the other 8 plus the DH. Pitching is just plain hard to do well. You have to be able to throw reasonably hard, but also have a variety of pitches, and, most important, have incredible accuracy. Mike Mussina of Orioles and Yankees fame once said that, if he started 32 games in a season, he would have all his pitches maybe a quarter (or less) of the games, just one or two good pitches half of the games, and nothing much working in 1/4 of the games. This year we have seen Price struggle, but also be brilliant. Same goes for our top of the line closer, Kimbrel, and he only has to pitch one inning at a time. Wright has excelled in part because the knuckler only has to be in the strike zone, not in the corners, but even he has struggled now and then.

 

As for Buchholz, I think his big issue is some combination of confidence and control. These days he simply doesn't go after hitters and prefers to nibble but doesn't have the great control to make that work. Same goes for Erod who has shown he can pitch well when his changeup is working and his fastball is hitting the right spots, and the occasional curve or slider is effective. As soon as Erod or Buchholz relies heavily on fastballs and cut fastballs, they are dead, but they are forced to do that when they can't hit their spots with the breaking stuff. This is very analogous to Wright's situation when he can't throw the knuckler for strikes and is forced to throw that 86 mph fast ball which the hitters are sitting on.

 

I'm not saying pitching coaches aren't important, but am saying that good, consistent pitching is uncommon, which is why it is so expensive.

 

If pitching coaches were as good as you imply, some of them would be paid a whole lot more than they currently are.

[User Name]

Max, why can't you just stick to the actual point that's being presented? The point isn't that he's supposed to magically turn marginal talent into All-Stars, but a good pitching coach turns good but flawed talent into great talent, as the Cardinals/Pirates are so adept at doing. I'll give any pitching coach a mulligan on Buchholz, but anyone and everyone knew Kelly was a reliever, and a lot of other guys keep underperforming their talent/peripherals on this team. Some of that has to go towards the pitching coach.

[mvp 78]

Right, blame the players, but the pitching coach should be able to fix some correctable issues rather tgan sit back and watch the staff turn to dog s***.

[devildavid]

He does have great relations with reporters though.

 

LOL! Good one!

[southpaw777]

Did anyone hear why in Gods name Farrell put Koji in in a non save situation? We do have other guys, but this manager chooses to keep using guys in the wrong situation or just overuse them...Koji had a day off but I believe he had worked a lot recently due to being given the closers role...now he strains his pec muscle?

Hopefully there was nobody else available because thats about the only legit excuse for Koji being in there with a 4-0 lead...

[Dojji]

Did anyone hear why in Gods name Farrell put Koji in in a non save situation? We do have other guys, but this manager chooses to keep using guys in the wrong situation or just overuse them...Koji had a day off but I believe he had worked a lot recently due to being given the closers role...now he strains his pec muscle?

Hopefully there was nobody else available because thats about the only legit excuse for Koji being in there with a 4-0 lead...

 

I really hope Farrell isn't managing for the meaningless stat that is saves.

[Bellhorn04]

I really hope Farrell isn't managing for the meaningless stat that is saves.

 

Yeah, it amazes me that anyone thinks there's a big difference between a 3 run lead and a 4 run lead just because of that silly stat.

[Dojji]

Farrell needs to win these games because it only gets harder from here. Not surprising that he goes to his top guys whenever he thinks he can get away with it.

[southpaw777]

Yeah, it amazes me that anyone thinks there's a big difference between a 3 run lead and a 4 run lead just because of that silly stat.

 

With a 4 run lead I would think Zig, Barnes, Hembre, Layne, or Ross would have had the gig last night. Instead Farrell uses his oldest, most fragile pitcher who is their temporary closer in a non close situation. Heck, even if it were a 2 or 3 run lead I would have considered someone else seeing they have 20 games in 20 days...I swear, this guy needs to go. For someone who was a great farm director in Cleveland and a solid pitching coach here, overall he has been a very bad in game Manager both here and in Toronto.

Put a suit back on this guy and get him out of the dugout.

[Bellhorn04]

As I posted in the game thread, Koji had only thrown 21 pitches in the previous 9 days.

[southpaw777]

As I posted in the game thread, Koji had only thrown 21 pitches in the previous 9 days.

 

I get that. This is not the first time hes done this so maybe im a little quick triggered here...i admit that. But im not going to change my stance that unless its a save situation he shouldnt throw. They have a very tough schedule coming up and you csnt afford to waste any of his bullets...

[Bellhorn04]

With a 4 run lead I would think Zig, Barnes, Hembre, Layne, or Ross would have had the gig last night. Instead Farrell uses his oldest, most fragile pitcher who is their temporary closer in a non close situation. Heck, even if it were a 2 or 3 run lead I would have considered someone else seeing they have 20 games in 20 days...I swear, this guy needs to go. For someone who was a great farm director in Cleveland and a solid pitching coach here, overall he has been a very bad in game Manager both here and in Toronto.

Put a suit back on this guy and get him out of the dugout.

 

I respect your opinion, and I've called for Farrell's head earlier this year myself. But in this case I can't fault him. If you have to treat your closer like a china doll he's not much use to you.

[Bellhorn04]

Basically Koji would have gotten hurt the next time we used him no matter what. This injury had nothing to do with being overworked.

[southpaw777]

I respect your opinion, and I've called for Farrell's head earlier this year myself. But in this case I can't fault him. If you have to treat your closer like a china doll he's not much use to you.

 

And I yours...but really, He basically is a china doll at this point so they should be a bit more careful with him. Hes a very exprienced vet. I think the rest does him more good than bad at this point in his career...JMHO

I was mad when he came in before the injury. This has nothing to do with it. It sucks because hes hurt, but it might have happened tomorrow or the next day. I get that.