Referendum on John Farrell

[User Name]

7-run rule.

[Maxbialystock]

7-run rule.

 

Completely agree. He usually left a starter in for 7 runs or 100 pitches. But then I learned other managers usually use the same rule. This year Farrell has not generally used that rule, but he also has had 8 guys in the bullpen rather than the usual 7.

 

I never thought the 7 run rule had anything to do with loyalty toward his starters. Far from it. I thought Francona used it to keep from overworking his bullpen. If anything, it was punitive to the starters, but it also gave them an opportunity to right the ship before getting the hook at 7 runs.

[sk7326]

Tito wasn't the best tactician. His "francoma" nickname came from a long established tendency to prefer to stay the course and have faith in his players, which meant he was sometimes slow with the hook. but his handling of the media and the clubhouse (until his health failed in 2011) was masterful. Even in the worst year the team had under his tenure (2006) he found ways to keep the team loose and playing with confidence. The team always seemed to bounce back better after the touch stretches teams always have, under Tito, than under any other manager we've had recently.

 

He managed tactically for the season - not the individual game.

[mvp 78]

I'd take Tito back in a heartbeat.

[Bellhorn04]

Completely agree. He usually left a starter in for 7 runs or 100 pitches. But then I learned other managers usually use the same rule. This year Farrell has not generally used that rule, but he also has had 8 guys in the bullpen rather than the usual 7.

 

I never thought the 7 run rule had anything to do with loyalty toward his starters. Far from it. I thought Francona used it to keep from overworking his bullpen. If anything, it was punitive to the starters, but it also gave them an opportunity to right the ship before getting the hook at 7 runs.

 

That's what I always thought too.

[Spudboy]

I'd take Tito back in a heartbeat.

 

I second this motion.

[User Name]

I

[Dojji]

I'd take Tito back in a heartbeat.

 

I would too, he's been doing very well with an Guardians franchise that isn't strong enough to give him much to work with. I think it's impressive with the struggles and mediocricy he's encountered with Cleveland that Tito has yet to hand management a losing season.

[sk7326]

I

 

Only other fair candidate for best mgr in Sox history is Dick Williams ... ultimately each was the perfect guy for the time they throve in.

[illinoisredsox]

Only other fair candidate for best mgr in Sox history is Dick Williams ... ultimately each was the perfect guy for the time they throve in.

 

Oh, I don't know. Bill Carrigan skippered a couple World Series title teams as well. Somebody named George Ruth called him the best manager he ever played for. Should he be in the discussion?

 

Of course, he wasn't quite a successful the second time around, so maybe not.

[SoxnCycles]

Oh, I don't know. Bill Carrigan skippered a couple World Series title teams as well. Somebody named George Ruth called him the best manager he ever played for. Should he be in the discussion?

 

Of course, he wasn't quite a successful the second time around, so maybe not.

 

Not to be confused with Joe Kerrigan...

[sk7326]

Oh, I don't know. Bill Carrigan skippered a couple World Series title teams as well. Somebody named George Ruth called him the best manager he ever played for. Should he be in the discussion?

 

Of course, he wasn't quite a successful the second time around, so maybe not.

 

That is fair - although in a general way, I forget baseball before 1947 existed

[Spudboy]

Only other fair candidate for best mgr in Sox history is Dick Williams ... ultimately each was the perfect guy for the time they throve in.

 

Yup.

 

Although I have fond feelings for Joe Morgan. He was a local boy ( Walpole ) that many loved for who he was, not just his baseball acumen.

[Maxbialystock]

I'm always reluctant to call a manager great because so much depends on the FO and ownership, but will agree on Dick Williams in his heyday. Truly a great manager and deservedly in the HOF.

 

I didn't think Francona should have been fired, but don't claim he was great. Frankly, I think the lion's share of the credit since 2002 goes to John Henry who has paid the bills and found competent executives who collectively ended the 86 year drought and won three WS despite changes in both the GM and manager positions. Right now the Henry era is on its third GM and third manager. I think one can even argue that Bobby Valentine was a good choice because he made it possible for the entire franchise to welcome John Farrell back the next year. Francona did a good job too. So would Lovullo, one assumes. And right now I think Farrell is doing a good job, which he also did in 2013. But it's the executives above Farrell, Francona, Lovullo, Valentine, et al, who have made the biggest difference because they provide the players. Even Ben Cherington made one great trade when he sent Beckett, AGon, and Crawford to the Dodgers in 2012 and made 2013 possible (with some additions).

[sk7326]

I'm always reluctant to call a manager great because so much depends on the FO and ownership, but will agree on Dick Williams in his heyday. Truly a great manager and deservedly in the HOF.

 

I didn't think Francona should have been fired, but don't claim he was great. Frankly, I think the lion's share of the credit since 2002 goes to John Henry who has paid the bills and found competent executives who collectively ended the 86 year drought and won three WS despite changes in both the GM and manager positions. Right now the Henry era is on its third GM and third manager. I think one can even argue that Bobby Valentine was a good choice because he made it possible for the entire franchise to welcome John Farrell back the next year. Francona did a good job too. So would Lovullo, one assumes. And right now I think Farrell is doing a good job, which he also did in 2013. But it's the executives above Farrell, Francona, Lovullo, Valentine, et al, who have made the biggest difference because they provide the players. Even Ben Cherington made one great trade when he sent Beckett, AGon, and Crawford to the Dodgers in 2012 and made 2013 possible (with some additions).

 

Francona is a great manager in the way that you'd apply the definition in 2016, where the MANAGER term is especially appropriate.

 

From the outside, he resembles what would qualify as a great boss in our (as in the people whom these various posts' typing fingers belong to, who have jobs and lives which they neglect to post on the Sox) own lives at our real jobs. Nice guy, very smart, very well informed on all of the job functions (since he's done it all, player, coach, player personnel), good humor but a straight shooter. Would not publicly embarass you, and was really good at creating an office which was a nice place to work and for you to be productive. And he was good at keeping the other bs to a minimum (media savviness very important here).

[a700hitter]

Francona is my all time favorite manager.

[Maxbialystock]

Francona is my all time favorite manager.

 

Fair enough, but I blame him for the 2011 late season collapse and the whole beer and chicken thing. He might have gotten a little loose with the reins. But, as you suggest, he had a very good run, especially given what had gone on before.

[mvp 78]

Fair enough, but I blame him for the 2011 late season collapse and the whole beer and chicken thing. He might have gotten a little loose with the reins. But, as you suggest, he had a very good run, especially given what had gone on before.

 

No, you blame the players for that monstrosity.

[sk7326]

Fair enough, but I blame him for the 2011 late season collapse and the whole beer and chicken thing. He might have gotten a little loose with the reins. But, as you suggest, he had a very good run, especially given what had gone on before.

 

He gets a little - but the players are the forefront were grown men who had won stuff before. There were key health problems and a team which flat ran out of pitchers. Also, Papi, Pedroia, Yook were all prominent pieces of the team's last title winner - did Pedroia suddenly stop being a scrappy leader? If they are a team's beating heart during a title chase, they have to also be that during a collective failing, no?

 

One of the larger truths which analytics has revealed is that "undermanaging" - bunting less, limiting hit and runs and steals ... is generally an effective approach. It also makes it look like the manager is not doing anything. Filling out the lineup card is tremendous work - but the levers inside of a game don't need to be pulled all that frequently.

[a700hitter]

Fair enough, but I blame him for the 2011 late season collapse and the whole beer and chicken thing. He might have gotten a little loose with the reins. But, as you suggest, he had a very good run, especially given what had gone on before.

I blame Theo for that. It was clear going into September that the pitching rotation was in a shambles and reinforcements were needed. We just needed to get someone to give us one good start to prevent that collapse. He sat on his hands and the collapse happened.

[mvp 78]

I blame Theo for that. It was clear going into September that the pitching rotation was in a shambles and reinforcements were needed. We just needed to get someone to give us one good start to prevent that collapse. He sat on his hands and the collapse happened.

 

And the chicken and beer nonsense came up solely to push Tito out the door. Pathetic. The rumors about pain pills and Hazel Mae were a little much as well. Thanks, Larry...

[a700hitter]

And the chicken and beer nonsense came up solely to push Tito out the door. Pathetic. The rumors about pain pills and Hazel Mae were a little much as well. Thanks, Larry...

He was a mess by the end. He had played out his shelf life and he knew it was time to move on.

[illinoisredsox]

I blame Theo for that. It was clear going into September that the pitching rotation was in a shambles and reinforcements were needed. We just needed to get someone to give us one good start to prevent that collapse. He sat on his hands and the collapse happened.

 

True, the pitching was in shambles. Bard started down his road to oblivion. Lackey may have been the best starting pitcher that month and he was pitching with spaghetti in his elbow (remember, he missed the entire 2012 season). As I recall, Theo even tried to get some has been from the Royals (Bruce Chen?) to pitch one of the last couple games but couldn't get agreement on a deal.

 

But I can't blame Francona; the collapse was a total team effort. The offense crammed a couple weeks' worth of runs into about 5 games spread out over the month and did nothing the rest of the time. The defense was putrid.

 

That being said, it was probably time for Terry to move on. 8 years is a long time for a manager in any town, let alone Boston.

 

Want to know how bad the collapse was? These numbers really tell the tale of the tape: http://espn.go.com/boston/mlb/story/_/id/7036912/boston-red-sox-ugly-september-shows-numbers

 

Warning: Numbers are rated R.

Edited May 24, 2016 by illinoisredsox

[Eddy Ballgame]

He was a mess by the end. He had played out his shelf life and he knew it was time to move on.

 

Any baseball manager who lasts 8 years in Boston during this day & age deserves some kind of "medal." He was going through a nasty divorce, the pills weren't "rumors" and he lived in a hotel room by himself in the seaport the entire last season he was here. It was time for both parties to move on. He was supposedly physically & emotionally spent. I think his run here was as good as it gets and I also think that, as Sox fans, we should appreciate the guy for everything he did as manager during those years.

[Spudboy]

And the chicken and beer nonsense came up solely to push Tito out the door. Pathetic. The rumors about pain pills and Hazel Mae were a little much as well. Thanks, Larry...

 

I'm not familiar with Hazel Mae being in play during this demise. What roll did she play?

[mvp 78]

I'm not familiar with Hazel Mae being in play during this demise. What roll did she play?

 

The rumor is that she had an affair with Tito.

[Spudboy]

The rumor is that she had an affair with Tito.

 

MY MAN!!!!

 

Another reason to admire the man!!!!

[Slasher9]

That's a solid Get for tito

[devildavid]

I love how Farrell has managed this team into first place. Brilliant!

[CliffKlowers]

The Boston media, talk shows, and social media are the toughest on a manager than in any other MLB city. It will never change. It must have something to do with the Puritan or Pilgrim ethic of needing to punish oneself and feel guilty about enjoying oneself. These folks demanded cold, unheated churches and living with no joy.