Referendum on John Farrell

[Bellhorn04]

Sandoval could be a brand name for beach footwear designed for extra large feet. 'Nice pair of Sandovals there, dude.'

[User Name]

I'm thinking more along the lines of a size 42-48 waist belt. "Hey bro, that belly's getting pretty big. Keep at it and you're going to have to buy a Sandoval belt soon"

[Kimmi]

Absolutely not - Tek has never filled in a lineup card. His time as catcher is wildly overrated - he was an outstanding catcher, but vintage Pedro Martinez could make a trained seal look good back there.

 

If Farrell is gone, you look at guys like Lovullo, Alex Cora, Bud Black. Managing is an actual job - and I'd like somebody with some experience doing it.

 

Personally, I think Varitek's ability as a catcher was underrated, not overrated. Over his career, he saved the team more runs defensively than most people realize.

 

Not saying that he could jump right into managing, but his catching ability was not wildly overrated.

[User Name]

Not his ability, the narrative surrounding it.

 

Allow me to explain myself: A lot of Varitek's "mystique" comes from his supposedly awesome game-calling ability, but there wasn't a lot of game-calling when you were catching Pedro and Schilling, who not only devised their own game plans, but helped out with the other (non-Wakefield) pitchers' game plans as well.

[Kimmi]

A lot of people seem to have trouble with telling the difference between a good idea that didn't work, a meh idea that didn't work, and a bad idea. For many here, everything that didn't work was a terrible decision. I personally feel like the decision to, say, leave Josh Beckett in the game in the 5th inning is something you ought to be able to expect to do, even if he was struggling with an injury at the time. The fact that that decision didn't work out does not automatically mean the decision was a mistake. It may, but it's not a 1-1 correlation like some people seem to be suggesting.

 

^^This. I have argued this point many times. Just because a move did not work out doesn't mean that it was the wrong call, and vice versa.

 

Also, while I might question a move, I tend to give the manager the benefit of the doubt when it comes to in game moves. He is with the players day in and day out and is privy to information that we might not be privy to.

 

Farrell has had me scratching my head a few times this season, but as I've said before, he certainly deserves longer than a few weeks before thinking about replacing him.

[Elktonnick]

Personally, I think Varitek's ability as a catcher was underrated, not overrated. Over his career, he saved the team more runs defensively than most people realize.

 

Not saying that he could jump right into managing, but his catching ability was not wildly overrated.

 

We don't agree on much but on this I concur.

[sk7326]

Personally, I think Varitek's ability as a catcher was underrated, not overrated. Over his career, he saved the team more runs defensively than most people realize.

 

Not saying that he could jump right into managing, but his catching ability was not wildly overrated.

 

I was talking about the game calling voodoo - on the actual defense he was excellent. The base stealing - well that was an organizational choice.

[Bellhorn04]

One of the best testimonials for Varitek's pitch-calling came from Schilling when he had the 8.2 no-hitter. He said he only shook off Varitek 5-10 times, 'and it was one time too many'.

 

http://espn.go.com/mlb/recap?gameId=270607111

[Elktonnick]

^^This. I have argued this point many times. Just because a move did not work out doesn't mean that it was the wrong call, and vice versa.

 

Also, while I might question a move, I tend to give the manager the benefit of the doubt when it comes to in game moves. He is with the players day in and day out and is privy to information that we might not be privy to.

 

Farrell has had me scratching my head a few times this season, but as I've said before, he certainly deserves longer than a few weeks before thinking about replacing him.

Realistically I think Farrell would have been in a very difficult position if the Sox hadn't played Houston and Atlanta when they did. They'll probably sweep Atlanta (God willing) They should have a comfortable cushion above 500 when they play the Yankees this weekend. The Yanks aren't playing well. It appears this schedule will give Farrell a lot of breathing room.

[sk7326]

Sandoval could be a brand name for beach footwear designed for extra large feet. 'Nice pair of Sandovals there, dude.'

 

available at "Big and Short" men's stores nationwide

[Youk Of The Nation]

Realistically I think Farrell would have been in a very difficult position if the Sox hadn't played Houston and Atlanta when they did. They'll probably sweep Atlanta (God willing) They should have a comfortable cushion above 500 when they play the Yankees this weekend. The Yanks aren't playing well. It appears this schedule will give Farrell a lot of breathing room.

 

Who would have thought that we'd get to a point where we'd rather see the Sox play the Yankees than the Rays or Orioles?

[sk7326]

Realistically I think Farrell would have been in a very difficult position if the Sox hadn't played Houston and Atlanta when they did. They'll probably sweep Atlanta (God willing) They should have a comfortable cushion above 500 when they play the Yankees this weekend. The Yanks aren't playing well. It appears this schedule will give Farrell a lot of breathing room.

 

Their schedule started tough - and then got easier. So we're going to end up with a fairly representative sample for the first month. Seriously, I don't think Farrell elevates the team's parts tacitically. But he largely does not actively harm them. And I think it's obvious the guys are playing hard for him. He is on a short leash because DD did not hire him - but it's hard to get too fired up about his performance one way or the other. I whine about certain decisions - but that's managing for you.

[Kimmi]

Not his ability, the narrative surrounding it.

 

Allow me to explain myself: A lot of Varitek's "mystique" comes from his supposedly awesome game-calling ability, but there wasn't a lot of game-calling when you were catching Pedro and Schilling, who not only devised their own game plans, but helped out with the other (non-Wakefield) pitchers' game plans as well.

 

I was talking about the game calling voodoo - on the actual defense he was excellent. The base stealing - well that was an organizational choice.

 

I don't think his game calling ability is voodoo. Max Marchi did a study on this and his findings support what many of his pitchers have said about him.

 

Game calling ability goes beyond simply having a game plan. One of the most important aspects of being a good game caller is the ability to make adjustments in game for any number of reasons. Being able to successfully change the game plan and knowing when to change the game plan is what Varitek excelled at, IMO.

[User Name]

I don't think his game calling ability is voodoo. Max Marchi did a study on this and his findings support what many of his pitchers have said about him.

 

Game calling ability goes beyond simply having a game plan. One of the most important aspects of being a good game caller is the ability to make adjustments in game for any number of reasons. Being able to successfully change the game plan and knowing when to change the game plan is what Varitek excelled at, IMO.

 

Yeah, but the issue is that the Red Sox org has done a lot of its game calling from the dugout, for one, and Varitek had a lot of staffs where pitchers were extremely prepared alongside him. That's why the whole pitch-calling ability was real, but overrated. The defensive side and the pitch-framing were always eye-poppingly good, even at the very end.

[sk7326]

I don't think his game calling ability is voodoo. Max Marchi did a study on this and his findings support what many of his pitchers have said about him.

 

Game calling ability goes beyond simply having a game plan. One of the most important aspects of being a good game caller is the ability to make adjustments in game for any number of reasons. Being able to successfully change the game plan and knowing when to change the game plan is what Varitek excelled at, IMO.

 

I think there is certainly some impact, but how much I don't know - I have my doubts that Francona and the pitching coach were constantly surprised with the calls. Varitek brought a lot to the table - but I also know Beckett had significant stretches of real awfulness, and the game plans for Matsuzaka were deeply flawed. Isolating Varitek's contributions is obviously the last part of the catching defense black box to be cracked. I know there are attempts out there - but the reliability is dicey.

[a700hitter]

No one could block the plate like Varitek. I kept waiting for someone to take out his left leg and end his career, but that leg must have been made of concrete. I'll never forget the playoff game where Eric Brynes spun around after hitting his leg and missed home plate. Byrnes was limping around and cursing as Varitek chased down the ball and tagged him out on the way back to the dugout. I guess that aspect of Tek's game is outlawed today.

[Kimmi]

As Bellhorn mentioned, the biggest testimonials to Varitek's ability to call games came from his pitchers. It wasn't just one or two pitchers, but virtually every pitcher who threw to him praised him in that regard. At the very least, the pitchers believed in him, and that confidence in a catcher has a huge impact on performance.

 

I watched many a game where Varitek was able to coax a pitcher through 5-6 innings when that pitcher seemingly had nothing.

 

Maybe it's semantics. It would be more fitting to say that Varitek excelled at "handling the pitching staff" rather than saying he excelled at game calling, though the latter contributes to the former.

[User Name]

Yet the same could be said for AJ Bad Temper, but advanced stats have made pretty clear the fact that he's an average pitch framer. Varitek's preparedness and work behind the plate was unmatched, but there's a lot of hyperbole in there too.

[Kingface]

This is why I have said a bazillion time (yes......this is about to go off topic but it will come full circle by the end) that Swihart SHOULD have been trade a while ago when he was a top 20 prospect. He was that high because of offense. Thats all well and good....but the REAL importance of the C position is what we are talking about; calling a game, pitcher comfort zone, holding runners on, leader of the IF, framing pitches etc........all things that Swihart has NEVER been known for. Vaz should be the fulltime catcher for a long time.

 

Tek was the MAN when it came to those things. When it came to being a CATCHER.....there were none better (other than throwing runners out.......not the best gun). Tek WILL be the Manager of the Sox sooner rather than later because of these things.

[User Name]

If you, as a fan, know Swihart needs a lot of work defensively, what makes you think other organizations don't? They scout these guys year 'round, and have a better sense of a guy's strengths/weaknesses and value than we do. Trading him when, even with his prospect pedigree, interested teams could say "well sure, but you can't even guarantee he'll stick at catcher" is a huge negotiating ploy. Seeing how his defense evolves is the avenue to getting maximum value in his case.

[a700hitter]

If you, as a fan, know Swihart needs a lot of work defensively, what makes you think other organizations don't? They scout these guys year 'round, and have a better sense of a guy's strengths/weaknesses and value than we do. Trading him when, even with his prospect pedigree, interested teams could say "well sure, but you can't even guarantee he'll stick at catcher" is a huge negotiating ploy. Seeing how his defense evolves is the avenue to getting maximum value in his case.

His progress behind the plate has been disappointing, and I think that the slow progress makes people think that his ceiling isn't very high defensively. In Spring Training 2015, his ceiling was thought to be higher, imo. The longer we hold him the more his value will diminish imo.

[User Name]

His progress behind the plate has been disappointing, and I think that the slow progress makes people think that his ceiling isn't very high defensively. In Spring Training 2015, his ceiling was thought to be higher, imo. The longer we hold him the more his value will diminish imo.

 

Hindsight is 20/20. Easy to say that after he got rushed to the Majors for half a season because of a roster emergency.

[Kingface]

His progress behind the plate has been disappointing, and I think that the slow progress makes people think that his ceiling isn't very high defensively. In Spring Training 2015, his ceiling was thought to be higher, imo. The longer we hold him the more his value will diminish imo.

 

Exactly!!!! I was almost begging the Sox to trade him after the 2014 season when his stock was high. He actually according to scouts, took big strides behind the plate. Anybody that knew anything at that time KNEW that he still would never come close to Vaz. Keep in mind.....I want this trade before Vaz tore his elbow and I have a great amount of respect for what Swi did last year. I just think the Sox need to start dealing from an area of strength for an area of need more.

[Kingface]

Hindsight is 20/20. Easy to say that after he got rushed to the Majors for half a season because of a roster emergency.

 

It's not hindsight.....it's striking when the iron is hot. Catcher was not a huge area of need......Pitching, pitching and some pitching was an are of need......and still is.

[a700hitter]

Hindsight is 20/20. Easy to say that after he got rushed to the Majors for half a season because of a roster emergency.

Yes, it is hindsight on my part. I don't deny that. The FO gets paid the big bucks to maximize asset value, and I think they can still get substantial value for him, but by this time next year his value will be less unless he simply tears up AAA.

[a700hitter]

Exactly!!!! I was almost begging the Sox to trade him after the 2014 season when his stock was high. He actually according to scouts, took big strides behind the plate. Anybody that knew anything at that time KNEW that he still would never come close to Vaz. Keep in mind.....I want this trade before Vaz tore his elbow and I have a great amount of respect for what Swi did last year. I just think the Sox need to start dealing from an area of strength for an area of need more.

Remember Cecchini? Third baseman of the future. He was a hot property, but he never could learn to field or hit at higher levels. It is the job of the FO to know which of their guys will make it and which will not.

[User Name]

You guys do know Swihart literally has less development time than what it took guys like Posey to make it to the Majors? Right?

[User Name]

It's not hindsight.....it's striking when the iron is hot. Catcher was not a huge area of need......Pitching, pitching and some pitching was an are of need......and still is.

 

.....yet Vasquez got injured, Hanigan got injured, and Swihart had to be rushed to the Majors. How were they going to trade him then?

[a700hitter]

You guys do know Swihart literally has less development time than what it took guys like Posey to make it to the Majors? Right?

But Posey wasn't blocked by the Giants catcher of the future.

[Hugh2]

Saying we should have traded Swihart while we could is wrong....because I don't think his trade has really gone down if at all. Let him be the up/down guy this year, see how he develops behind the plate, see how he looks in left and go from there. Hanigan will be gone next year so between LF/DH/C there will probably be plenty of at bats to go around for the kid. If his bat/combo is too good to not be an everday regular at a position then you trade one of him or Vasquez and if anything we probably get more for him. Unless Swihart takes a big step back this year that last statement holds true.