Travis Shaw

[SoxHop]

Shaw is just bigger and stronger.

 

That only means he would win a arm wrestling match.

[Dojji]

Shaw is just bigger and stronger.

 

Which is why we're worried about him transitioning from mostly playing first base, where you can let yourself fill out, back to a more athletic position that he hasn't played full time in years. There's very real concerns about Shaw's ability to both play well and stay healthy as an every day third baseman. As you might remember, trying to transition to full time 3B after being a very successful 1b and part time 3B was a large part of what tipped Kevin Youkilis over the edge and into oblivion. Looked like it was working at first but Youk kept getting hurt, not that he wasn't pretty injury prone to begin with.

 

So there's a concern with guys who've filled out a bit, trying to move back. The risk factor was big enough to eat a guy alive who was one of the better hitters in the big leagues at the time. The problem here is those problems aren't as severe as the problems a severely overweight player would have in the same situation, so Shaw's risk factors are being underestimated because they are smaller than Pablo's and the whole thing is being smothered under a layer of hope. I hope Shaw makes good too. I'm just concerned about a few things that could blow up in our faces -- and have in the past.

[jung]

So you want to take the detonated fragments of Pablo and cart them out to 3rd base in favor of the possibility that Shaw might detonate?

 

Although even detonated and dismembered I would bet Pablo's disembodied mouth can still find its way to the nearest McDonald's.

[SoxHop]

So you want to take the detonated fragments of Pablo and cart them out to 3rd base in favor of the possibility that Shaw might detonate?

 

Although even detonated and dismembered I would bet Pablo's disembodied mouth can still find its way to the nearest McDonald's.

 

you gotta work on your fat jokes....... that misses the mark just a tad......................

[User Name]

You should know better than anyone that you can't take ST stats at face value. There are any number of things that Pablo could have been working on defensively.

 

People can say that they are pulling for Pablo, that they don't hate Pablo, and that they are not making judgments on Pablo's character based on the way he looks all they want, but virtually every post made about Pablo says otherwise.

 

Pablo has not been given a fair chance this season. That's the bottom line.

 

The problem here is that you don't need stats to know when a player can barely move. And he only has himself to blame for that. He's not working on anything, he's just too fat to move.

[Spudboy]

Shaw is just bigger and stronger.

 

Plus Pablo's man boobs inhibit the movement of the bat through the zone.

 

And I bet he can not see his pecker when standing up. Unless he is hung like Mandingo.

[Spudboy]

Which is why we're worried about him transitioning from mostly playing first base, where you can let yourself fill out, back to a more athletic position that he hasn't played full time in years. There's very real concerns about Shaw's ability to both play well and stay healthy as an every day third baseman. As you might remember, trying to transition to full time 3B after being a very successful 1b and part time 3B was a large part of what tipped Kevin Youkilis over the edge and into oblivion. Looked like it was working at first but Youk kept getting hurt, not that he wasn't pretty injury prone to begin with.

 

So there's a concern with guys who've filled out a bit, trying to move back. The risk factor was big enough to eat a guy alive who was one of the better hitters in the big leagues at the time. The problem here is those problems aren't as severe as the problems a severely overweight player would have in the same situation, so Shaw's risk factors are being underestimated because they are smaller than Pablo's and the whole thing is being smothered under a layer of hope. I hope Shaw makes good too. I'm just concerned about a few things that could blow up in our faces -- and have in the past.

 

 

The obvious solution is to go get Mark Teahan.

 

While they are at it, the Sox should find Hu Flung Dung or Che-Hsuan Lin or whatever his name is. According to you we will need another OF as well as a 3rd baseman ready to go.

 

Really Dojji, you seem to be the only one with anxiety about 3rd base being manned by Shaw.

[cp176]

Plus Pablo's man boobs inhibit the movement of the bat through the zone.

 

And I bet he can not see his pecker when standing up. Unless he is hung like Mandingo.

 

Wowzers - Are you saying he might not be able see his rigging? He should be worried.

[cp176]

The thing is most likely Shaw at his best was Sandoval's average over the last half a decade, minus last year. I think some people here think Sandoval is kaput, and some here think he can regain some of what he was before last year. To me the odds are about 50/50, but I'd halve to go with Pablo, but it's probably because I can't imagine a player just tanking so bad within a year. But if we are now seeing injuries due to physical conditioning, that is something else.

 

I'm kind of glad Pablo got injured . It makes the decision that much easier. And even though I think the team would be better off with Pablo turning it around, I'd much rather see Shaw at third in the hopes he keeps on hitting.

 

I know little about Shaw's defense. But from last year he moved well for a very big guy. But he still moved like a very big guy, and seemed much more suited for first to me.

 

 

Most likely? No one really knows what Shaw will become. In this case he gets his chance. The better player will get the job. I loved reading Ortiz's comments about Dumbrowski this morning. Refreshing and revealing. His approach really is pretty uncomplicated and the approach to this game does not have to be complicated. Play your better players and play to win. Don't waste opportunities worrying and playing silly games with respect to contract size or options available. Would a more physically fit 29 year old Sandoval be our starting third baseman this year? Maybe. Can a particularly out of shape Pablo go to the bench and come back? Maybe - maybe. It would be a shame I guess but I think that the Red Sox are prepared to move ahead and he might be left behind. It should serve as a little motivator as to how this team plans to approach things going forward. The size of that contract really doesn't and shouldn't guarantee your playing time.

[Elktonnick]

Most likely? No one really knows what Shaw will become. In this case he gets his chance. The better player will get the job. I loved reading Ortiz's comments about Dumbrowski this morning. Refreshing and revealing. His approach really is pretty uncomplicated and the approach to this game does not have to be complicated. Play your better players and play to win. Don't waste opportunities worrying and playing silly games with respect to contract size or options available. Would a more physically fit 29 year old Sandoval be our starting third baseman this year? Maybe. Can a particularly out of shape Pablo go to the bench and come back? Maybe - maybe. It would be a shame I guess but I think that the Red Sox are prepared to move ahead and he might be left behind. It should serve as a little motivator as to how this team plans to approach things going forward. The size of that contract really doesn't and shouldn't guarantee your playing time.

 

If one looks really closely at Sandoval's defensive WAR one sees that his defensive ability he never has been outstanding "From 2009-14, he ranked ninth out of 19 qualified third basemen in Fangraphs' Defense metric (19.7) and 10th in Ultimate Zone Rating (8.7). So he was right in the middle of the pack — pretty good. " but not outstanding

 

"Then came 2015, his first season with the Boston Red Sox. His Defense metric (-15.1) and UZR (-16.9) ranked worst among all qualified third basemen. "

More importantly in 2014 he lost 40 lbs in 2013 he lost 22 lbs. Photos of him in 2014 show a much slimmer man. So the obvious conclusion is that Sandoval has to lose a lot of weight in order to be an effective above average fielder. In 2014, he was motivated by his upcoming free agency, what motivates him now?

Edited March 25, 2016 by Elktonnick

[mvp 78]

The problem here is that you don't need stats to know when a player can barely move. And he only has himself to blame for that. He's not working on anything, he's just too fat to move.

 

It's just common sense. He may be able to still hit, but the bigger he gets, the worse his fielding will be.

[a700hitter]

Pablo was never that good. The upside of hoping for a bounce back season is just not worth it.

[Dojji]

Really Dojji, you seem to be the only one with anxiety about 3rd base being manned by Shaw.

 

It doesn't bother me to be alone in my opinion. that seems to happen to me a lot. Sometimes I'm right, sometimes I'm wrong.

 

I do think a lot of legitimate concerns about Shaw are being whitewashed over because Pablo's issues are worse. While that's true, that doesn't mean there aren't legitimate concerns about Shaw starting at third base every day as well.

 

The fact is that as I've said before, if I'm DD, I look for a league average 3B that I can acquire quickly from another team, and start laying groundwork for that deal just in case. It's not time to pull the trigger on that kind of deal yet, and Shaw is young so there's a decent chance he can adjust anyway, but let's not pretend there's NO risk here.

[a700hitter]

It doesn't bother me to be alone in my opinion. that seems to happen to me a lot. Sometimes I'm right, sometimes I'm wrong.

 

I do think a lot of legitimate concerns about Shaw are being whitewashed over because Pablo's issues are worse. While that's true, that doesn't mean there aren't legitimate concerns about Shaw starting at third base every day as well.

 

The fact is that as I've said before, if I'm DD, I look for a league average 3B that I can acquire quickly from another team, and start laying groundwork for that deal just in case. It's not time to pull the trigger on that kind of deal yet, and Shaw is young so there's a decent chance he can adjust anyway, but let's not pretend there's NO risk here.

According to Shaw, his natural position was 3B. He has been converted to 1B.

[Dojji]

And the last time he played 3B every day was in college, more than 5 years ago. that's not a concern a700?

[a700hitter]

And the last time he played 3B every day was in college, more than 5 years ago. that's not a concern a700?

He seems to be handling the position with proficiency this Spring, and he is not replacing Brooks Robinson at 3B. If he blows up, Sandoval is waiting in the wings with his replacement level glove or Holt if Sandoval gets injured.

[Dojji]

Yeah but I'm not that concerned about Shaw's ability to deal with a short term assignment to third base. Pablo's health issues are going to keep mounting up, back problems in a big guy are Really Bad News. My concern is about shaw playing every day at third base. Fortunately he's young so it may work out.

[User Name]

It doesn't bother me to be alone in my opinion. that seems to happen to me a lot. Rarely I'm right, mostly I'm wrong.

 

Gave you a little hand there buddy.

[User Name]

Dojji s***ing on a prospect and defending a veteran, a700 pulling out all the stops to defend the prospect. Is this real life?

[cp176]

According to Shaw, his natural position was 3B. He has been converted to 1B.

 

I think that every one of the concerns you bring up are legit and we all see them as well. Sandoval really is the guy who forced the issue here. When he turned up in camp in the condition he showed up in, Sox lost some leverage. Pablo wasn't signed under the assumption that he would play for one year and then be on the outside looking in. I would imagine that the Red Sox really felt that the most uncertain situation was with Hanley's transition to first. That one seems to be working out. It 's a good thing for us that we have a guy like Shaw who at least gets a chance to show what he can actually do. Once again, i don't get the feeling that this is about the personalities of the players. It is about who can and who cannot get the job done. And to re-emphasize, the concerns are obvious - I just want to see this as an opportunity. it may work out for the best.

[mvp 78]

Dojji s***ing on a prospect and defending a veteran, a700 pulling out all the stops to defend the prospect. Is this real life?

 

Travis Shaw is too good of a prospect for Dojji to like. He's more of a Josh Ockimey guy. Loves the deep cuts.

[Dojji]

Dojji s***ing on a prospect and defending a veteran, a700 pulling out all the stops to defend the prospect. Is this real life?

 

I'm not "s***ing" on Shaw. I'm applying the brakes and asking people to assess Shaw on some other basis than not being Pablo Sandoval. Looking at him as he is, it's an open question how well he can play 3b every day. Acceptable defense over the short term does not fully answer that question.

 

Anyone remember Brock Holt last year? He was the Brockstar in the first half, and in the second half he was... a really half decent supersub who belonged on the bench but still provided strong value from the bench. I'm not going to pretend I'm not a little worried that that's what'll happen to Travis Shaw just because I don't like Pablo either and would rather he had never been signed.

[Dojji]

For the record I kind of see myself as a balancing force. When the hype roars in one direction I'm probably the guy trying to pull everyone back to the center. if I feel a rookie with some ability has been overlooked for various reasons I'll call attention to them, like I did with Daniel Nava. if I feel a trope is being overplayed of the exuberance over a guy is becoming irrational, I'll pull back in the direction of moderation. If I feel the hate train is rolling too strong on a guy I'll try to push back against that as well. it's what I do.

[User Name]

That's called "being a contrarian", and it's a very annoying habit.

[cp176]

There is no place for rational thought or independent thinking in the world today! He clearly just don't get it. You are either with or agin us. No middle frickin ground!

[mvp 78]

That's called "being a contrarian", and it's a very annoying habit.

 

Mike Trout? I think he's overrated!

 

Pablo? He's not that fat. There's just more of him to love!

 

Carl Everett? Maybe dinosaurs really didn't exist!

 

The 2000 Red Sox? They were a lovable bunch! Favorite team ever!

 

Calvin Schiraldi? You know, if it wasn't for him, they probably wouldn't have made it to the WS anyway! It's time to give him our gratitude!

 

Don Zimmer? He just had wonderfully chubby cheeks. Should totally be in the Sox HOF!

 

Wally Wave? Greatest move by NESN since Sox Appeal (totally underrated show IMO)!

 

Mickey Rivers? He was just a great competitor!

 

Ted Williams' son? He was protecting Ted's legacy! Great guy!

[User Name]

There is no place for rational thought or independent thinking in the world today! He clearly just don't get it. You are either with or agin us. No middle frickin ground!

 

Keep the sarcasm to yourself, it doesn't suit you. There's a clear difference between independent thought and arguing just for arguing. I went against the grain when everyone was s***ing on Hanley. The difference is Hanley did what he was told to do. Pablo has no one to blame but himself for his lack of discipline.

[a700hitter]

Dojji s***ing on a prospect and defending a veteran, a700 pulling out all the stops to defend the prospect. Is this real life?

I have been telling you for years that I am too complex to be put in a box and characterized. I think independently, and the only philosophy that I have is finding ways to improve the team. I am neither a stathead nor a traditionalist, neither for or against youth or veterans. I am just a knowledgeable fan who has opinions about what it takes to produce a competitive team. On the internet, people like to label people as one thing or another to help them understand their posts, but the preconceived notion just confounds the comprehension.

[a700hitter]

I find CP's sarcasm to be humorous commentary. Lighten up U.N.

[cp176]

Keep the sarcasm to yourself, it doesn't suit you. There's a clear difference between independent thought and arguing just for arguing. I went against the grain when everyone was s***ing on Hanley. The difference is Hanley did what he was told to do. Pablo has no one to blame but himself for his lack of discipline.

 

Sorry I was just kidding with you. For what its worth, most of the time I agree with you. Most of the time. That might be kind of scary in way but oh well.