Just for fun - great Sox postseason relief performances

[Orange Juiced]

Keith Foulke has been brought back to the Red Sox in an advisory capacity, which is pretty cool. Reminds me of how incredible he was during the 2004 run. And then I got thinking of 2004, 2007, and 2013. Look at these closers and the performances they put up for the Sox during those championship seasons....

 

2004 Foulke (1-0, 3 sv, 1 bs) - 11 g, 14.0 ip (1.3/g), 7 h, 1 r, 1 er, 8 bb, 19 k, 0.64 era, .531 ops, 1.07 whip, 12.2 k/9

2007 Papelbon (1-0, 4 sv) - 7 g, 10.2 ip (1.5/g), 5 h, 0 r, 0 er, 4 bb, 7 k, 0.00 era, .436 ops, 0.84 whip, 5.9 k/9

2013 Uehara (1-1, 7 sv) - 13 g, 13.2 ip (1.1/g), 7 h, 1 r, 1 er, 0 bb, 16 k, 0.66 era, .413 ops, 0.51 whip, 10.5 k/9

 

I think there was more pressure on Foulke than either Papelbon or Koji. It seemed like every game he was in was just unbelievably pressure-packed and tense. Papelbon wasn't as statistically dominant in terms of k/9 or ops against, but he didn't give up a run, and in every game he pitched the Sox won. He also pitched more innings per game than either Foulke or Koji, so while he didn't pitch as many games, he was leaned on to get more outs on average than either guy when he did get called upon. And it's not like his whip was chopped liver, at 0.84. Koji was mind-bogglingly good in terms of ops against and whip (0.51!!!), and he pitched a LOT. But he also lost a game as well.

 

Which of these postseason relief performances would you guys say was the best and why?

[Bellhorn04]

I have to give it to Foulke. In Games 4, 5 and 6 of the ALCS he pitched 5 innings and threw 100 pitches over the course of 3 nights. He was absolutely gassed in Game 6, it was a miracle he was able to get the 3 outs there.

[Orange Juiced]

I have to give it to Foulke. In Games 4, 5 and 6 of the ALCS he pitched 5 innings and threw 100 pitches over the course of 3 nights. He was absolutely gassed in Game 6, it was a miracle he was able to get the 3 outs there.

 

I am not sure I've ever been more nervous than when Foulke faced Clark in the 9th of game 6. I just *KNEW* Clark would come up with a hit.

 

I've never been happier to be wrong. :-)

[a700hitter]

Foulke gets my vote, but Uehara was a strike throwing machine who was nearly perfect.

[sk7326]

What Foulke did was heroic - I have no idea how he got the save in that Game 6.

Papelbon in 2007 had one moment for the ages in Game 7 of the ALCS, entering the 8th (when the game was still in doubt, Sox up 3-2) and slamming the door. Boston blew it open in the bottom of that inning.

Koji was better in his appearances - but the Red Sox were never down to the felt in that playoff run, so I'd put it a teeny tiny half step down.

 

Well, I'll add one missed one and drop the mic

 

Pedro Martinez - Game 5, 1999 ALDS

[mvp 78]

Uehara > Foulke > Paps

[Thunder]

The only one that I really remember is Koji, so that's the only way I can vote.

[Kimmi]

I would definitely go with Foulke.

 

That said, Koji gets the "No 9th Inning Drama" award.

[User Name]

Dat Koji.

[Spudboy]

Calvin Shiraldi.

[sk7326]

Koji was a machine that postseason - funny thing is that the most memorable high leverage at-bats involved Breslow and Tazawa. You just hope this team can achieve that sort of game shortening.

[Yaz Fan Since 67]

All were great, as I've always believed without a top closer it's prety hard to win a ring, but I'll go with Foulke for the reasons given earlier. He was put in more demanding spots. But obviously relief poitching is not always the closer. It seemed like they always had a guy in all 3 of their championship seasons who would relieve the starter with 2 on in the 6th and slam the door, then others would follow with the same results taking them to the closer.

[Bellhorn04]

Re: Papelbon. He followed up his perfect 2007 postseason with another one in 2008.

 

In the first 17 postseason appearances of his career, he pitched 26 innings, allowed 0 runs, 16 baserunners and a .339 OPS against.

 

Then in his 18th postseason appearance, in 2009 ALDS Game 3, he got smoked for 3 runs, blown save, loss, series over.

 

And he hasn't been in the postseason since.

 

It's a funny game...

[Dojji]

All were great' date=' as I've always believed without a top closer it's prety hard to win a ring, but I'll go with Foulke for the reasons given earlier. He was put in more demanding spots. But obviously relief poitching is not always the closer. It seemed like they always had a guy in all 3 of their championship seasons who would relieve the starter with 2 on in the 6th and slam the door, then others would follow with the same results taking them to the closer.[/quote']

 

this is why the fireman vs closer debate is such hokum. Every team that ever got all the way had either top guys, or guys having top years, in both roles.

 

Foulke and Timlin, Pap and Oki, Koji and Taz, you can't get anywhere near the Series without dependable middle relief AND (nor OR) a good to great closer, and the solution to deficiencies in either area is to bring in talent, not to argue over how to rearrange the goodship Titanic's deck chairs yet again

[Dojji]

Re: Papelbon. He followed up his perfect 2007 postseason with another one in 2008.

 

In the first 17 postseason appearances of his career, he pitched 26 innings, allowed 0 runs, 16 baserunners and a .339 OPS against.

 

Then in his 18th postseason appearance, in 2009 ALDS Game 3, he got smoked for 3 runs, blown save, loss, series over.

 

And he hasn't been in the postseason since.

 

It's a funny game...

I'd still bet on pap in the postseason over nearly every closer currently in the game today. the only reason he was never the top closer in the league was the fact that he was Mo's direct competition and there may never be a closer better than Mariano Rivera.

 

As it is Papelbon held his own in that rivalry very well indeed and has not pulled the disappearing act many closers experience when hitters get familiar with theie schtick. If i has a choice of any closer in the league right now for a playoff run, I'd probably pick Pap. His track record merits a certain faith

Edited March 6, 2016 by Dojji

[Yaz Fan Since 67]

So what's the deal here, I can't edit a post before I have a certain number of posts? That's bad news, I can't type on this tablet worth a damn so you guys will see more typos.

[User Name]

I'd still bet on pap in the postseason over nearly every closer currently in the game today. the only reason he was never the top closer in the league was the fact that he was Mo's direct competition and there may never be a closer better than Mariano Rivera.

 

As it is Papelbon held his own in that rivalry very well indeed and has not pulled the disappearing act many closers experience when hitters get familiar with theie schtick. If i has a choice of any closer in the league right now for a playoff run, I'd probably pick Pap. His track record merits a certain faith

 

"Faith" and "Blind faith" are different things. If you'd take Papelbon over Kimbrel, Chapman or Davis, then it's blind faith we're talking about.

[mvp 78]

So what's the deal here' date=' I can't edit a post before I have a certain number of posts? That's bad news, I can't type on this tablet worth a damn so you guys will see more typos.[/quote']

 

Don't worry about it. The grammar police don't come to this neighborhood.

[SoxnCycles]

Nice to know Keith Foulke isn't the same miserable guy he was in '04 and '05.

There were reports about how he really didn't like the game, and his "Johnny from Burger King" comment was the last straw for a lot of fans.

 

The guy had a tough time , personally, during that time.

Too bad he couldn't enjoy it while it was happening.

 

http://espn.go.com/boston/mlb/story/_/id/8434045/keith-foulke-savor-boston-red-sox-2004-world-series-title

[Dojji]

"Faith" and "Blind faith" are different things. If you'd take Papelbon over Kimbrel, Chapman or Davis, then it's blind faith we're talking about.

 

Leaving aside the fact that I said "nearly every," none of Kimbrel, Chapman or Davis have the kind of lengthy track record and long string of postseason success Papelbon can boast. Certainly Davis has a long way to go to establish a consistent field record, and if there's 2 guys you'd take over Papelbon, I'd say that matches my statement nicely.

 

Also let's mention the fact that Papelbon, though somewhat more hittable than those two guys, blows them out of the water on command and control and is competitive with them in several statistics that I feel are crucial for a closer -- WHIP chief among them. He's also been extremely durable and consistent, especially for power reliever, with 10 years of very solid performances without a lot of time on the DL. very few big power arms last that long without a major injury.

 

The fact is that Jonathan Papelbon is a damn good closer and a great pitcher in his own right and there are very few relivers in the league who can claim to be superior, and I would happily take him back on this team if he was willing to come and the team could make the numbers work financially.

Edited March 7, 2016 by Dojji

[User Name]

The whole "postseason success" thing means jack-all. Papelbon is still an upper-echelon closer, but he's getting up there in age and all three of the pitchers I mentioned (and some I did not) are clearly and unequivocally superior to the current iteration of Papelbon. No amount of long-winded explanations and rationalizations can deny that fact. If you're too much of a Papelbon fan to see that, well that's your problem, but let's stick to reality.

[User Name]

WHIP and BB/9 for all four relievers, last two seasons:

 

Papelbon: 0.96, 1.9

Chapman: 1.06, 4.3

Davis: 0.81, 2.8

Kimbrel: 0.97, 3.6

 

Papelbon is less likely to give up walks, that is true. But he doesn't "blow anyone out of the water" in anything else, especially not WHIP. And the other three are so much more overpowering in terms of K/9, BAA and hard contact allowed that it's not even fair.

 

Stop making stuff up. You tend to do this whenever you're fixated with a player (usually a member of the Royals) and it's incredibly annoying. What you literally said is that you'd take Papelbon over anyone else in a postseason game (don't try moving the goalposts now) and that's just beyond ridiculous.

[Dojji]

How about you stop. Congratulations, you've found 3 pitchers that are arguably better than Papelbon, that doesn't contradict my statement in the slightest that I would take him over nearly every closer in the league. I contend that at this point it is you that is fixated.

 

Frankly if I know which Davis you're referring to I write him out of the equation because his track record as an elite reliver is too damn short, shorter than a lot of 3-4 year wunderkind that happen all the blasted time and amount to nothing in the end, you really have to kind of ignore those guys when discussing great closers.

 

So with Davis aside, you're basically telling me Kimbrel and Chapman are better than papelbon, but if the best you can do is 2 guys, then it's clear that Papelbon is exactly the elite closer I said he was and you're grasping at straws to argue just for the sake of argument. Third place out of 30 is still pretty damn elite even before you figure that Papelbon has a CV an order of magnitude better than either of Chapman or Kimbrel at the moment.

Edited March 7, 2016 by Dojji

[User Name]

Chapman, Kimbrel, Miller, Melancon, Rosenthal. Davis (and some others) are arguable because of track record, I'll give you that.

 

I just don't get the love affair and glorification of Papelbon, even at this stage of his career.

Edited March 7, 2016 by User Name?

[Youk Of The Nation]

Don't worry about it. The grammar police don't come to this neighborhood.

 

I patrol, but I gave up enforcement years ago. I once was Harry Callahan, but I am now Barney Fife.

[Youk Of The Nation]

Chapman, Kimbrel, Miller, Melancon, Rosenthal. Davis (and some others) are arguable because of track record, I'll give you that.

 

I just don't get the love affair and glorification of Papelbon, even at this stage of his career.

 

Papelbon accomplished a lot for the Red Sox, and was a huge factor in the 2007 World Series, which I personally have always thought of as more important than the 2004 series. The 2004 series was incredible, and it proved the Sox could win one, but 2007 proved that they could win again, that 2004 wasn't a once-a-century fluke. It proved that Boston was here to stay as a contender, and 2013 solidified that yet again.

 

Anyways, I would argue that Papelbon was an elite closer for several years with Boston, but that he is not anymore. I agree that "at this stage of his career", it is a little odd to still propose that he is top-shelf, but at one point there was no one else I would have rather had closing games. That is not true anymore, and I'm glad the Sox went in a different direction, but I have no problem with being reminded how awesome Papelbon was at one time.

[User Name]

"Was" being the operative word.I don't get the current Papelbon worship. He's still good. That's it, just good. Not awesome, not one of the best, just good.

[Spudboy]

Papelbon accomplished a lot for the Red Sox, and was a huge factor in the 2007 World Series, which I personally have always thought of as more important than the 2004 series. The 2004 series was incredible, and it proved the Sox could win one, but 2007 proved that they could win again, that 2004 wasn't a once-a-century fluke. It proved that Boston was here to stay as a contender, and 2013 solidified that yet again.

 

Anyways, I would argue that Papelbon was an elite closer for several years with Boston, but that he is not anymore. I agree that "at this stage of his career", it is a little odd to still propose that he is top-shelf, but at one point there was no one else I would have rather had closing games. That is not true anymore, and I'm glad the Sox went in a different direction, but I have no problem with being reminded how awesome Papelbon was at one time.

 

This is how I feel as well.

 

And I will ad that other than a bunch of stupid things he said while in Philly ( especially saying bad things about Boston fans who treated him very well ) I have nothing against him.

[Spudboy]

Another Talksox non-essential debate.

[Bellhorn04]

Another Talksox non-essential debate.

 

It's my fault for throwing that Papelbon post in just when this thread was about to die a natural death.