Just for fun - great Sox postseason relief performances

[Kimmi]

No, we overpaid for Sandoval and Porcello. We *paid* for Kimbrel, just like Philidelphia paid for Papelbon. Not every high cost transaction is an overpay, nor is every situation in which we didn't buy low "overpay." "Costly" and "overpay" are not synonyms, some things are worth a high price.

 

We were willing to fork out what it cost for Kimbrel because he is a premium value commodity and the price was up due to the way the last World Series fell out. Sometimes a big market team needs to be willing to pay value for value, and that's alright.

 

by any sandard in which Kimbrel was an overpay, every baseball player in the league is overpaid.

 

No, we overpaid for Kimbrel. The fact that he should be very good does not change the fact that we overpaid for him.

 

Pablo was definitely an overpay.

 

Porcello was not an overpay when you consider the length of contract, but may end up being an overpay in hindsight.

[Kimmi]

by any sandard in which Kimbrel was an overpay, every baseball player in the league is overpaid.

 

If you take just his salary, that would be one thing. If you took just the prospect package and Kimbrel were cost controlled, that would also be one thing. When you factor the two together, he was an overpay.

 

Not liking a player or liking a player does not make said player an overpay versus a non-overpay.

[mvp 78]

No, we overpaid for Kimbrel. The fact that he should be very good does not change the fact that we overpaid for him.

 

Pablo was definitely an overpay.

 

Porcello was not an overpay when you consider the length of contract, but may end up being an overpay in hindsight.

But we traded Lester for Cesedes for Porcello. When you take into account the package we gave up AND THAT THERE WAS NO REASON TO EXTEND HIM BEFORE HIS FIRST K OF THE SEASON, it was an overpay.

[Spudboy]

But we traded Lester for Cesedes for Porcello. When you take into account the package we gave up AND THAT THERE WAS NO REASON TO EXTEND HIM BEFORE HIS FIRST K OF THE SEASON, it was an overpay.

 

Sometimes your sarcasm is too subtle, even for me.

 

But I'll bite anyway. I agree.

[User Name]

Just as Pap at the time.

 

Are you for real? Not even close.

[User Name]

Yeah we agree on that, Pap is still an effective, consistent and a durable closer after 11 Y (until his performances show the opposite), thing that is really really hard to find in baseball mostly in relievers, reason why I think he is special, just like Mo. Again, this is the reason he got that contract at the time -- because he was a proven closer, and most important, a closer who still had plenty of gas at the time/still in his prime. Time has given him reason. Numbers are there. Unfortunately the Phillys have been a mess.

 

Pap and few others like him are the gems that a WS contender needs. Imagine Pap in Detroit in those years, I would have bet that they could have won a couple of rings with Pap in their Pen, I have no doubts.

 

Let's see if Chapman, Kimbrel and others can be as consistent and durable as Pap after 11 Y. As I said, Kimbrel seems to be in that direction; following Pap's steps.

 

How can you "have no doubts" Detroit would have won with Papelbon? That's made up dribble. Stop it with the hyperbole

[Bellhorn04]

This thread didn't even make it through one page of staying on topic. And here it is on page 13.

[Dojji]

Hi, you must be new here. Welcome to Talksox.

[cp176]

Anything to keep us going - anything works!

[a700hitter]

We all have our issues that we feel strongly about. Others may not share those views, and there is little chance of converting others to a point of view. That's okay. We come here to express ourselves. As long as we keep it civil, no harm done.

[User Name]

Hi, you must be new here. Welcome to any forum on the internet ever.

 

Fixed.

[cp176]

Fixed.

 

Hey - hey - hey - Is that legal?

[mvp 78]

Hey - hey - hey - Where are my pants?

 

C'mon man, get yourself together!

[Kimmi]

But we traded Lester for Cesedes for Porcello. When you take into account the package we gave up AND THAT THERE WAS NO REASON TO EXTEND HIM BEFORE HIS FIRST K OF THE SEASON, it was an overpay.

 

The extension was independent of the trade.

 

So if you are being anywhere near serious, you would be completely wrong.

[a700hitter]

The extension was independent of the trade.

 

So if you are being anywhere near serious, you would be completely wrong.

We did trade for him and extend him before he threw a pitch for us. I don't know why it wouldn't all go in the cost column.

[cp176]

C'mon man, get yourself together!

 

Hey stop that - wait - where the hell are they though?

[iortiz]

No, we overpaid for Sandoval and Porcello. We *paid* for Kimbrel, just like Philidelphia paid for Papelbon. Not every high cost transaction is an overpay, nor is every situation in which we didn't buy low "overpay." "Costly" and "overpay" are not synonyms, some things are worth a high price.

 

We were willing to fork out what it cost for Kimbrel because he is a premium value commodity and the price was up due to the way the last World Series fell out. Sometimes a big market team needs to be willing to pay value for value, and that's alright.

 

by any sandard in which Kimbrel was an overpay, every baseball player in the league is overpaid.

 

Bravo Doji! Just the way I see the thing.

[iortiz]

I like what I've seen from Kimbrel so far. He's like Koji. He doesn't mess around.

 

We still paid too much for him though.

 

I remembre Kimbrel messing around with Atlanta & SD sometimes as well but in the end he got the job done as he usual does. He is a 90% SV%+ closer, just like Pap. That's what I like.

[Kimmi]

We did trade for him and extend him before he threw a pitch for us. I don't know why it wouldn't all go in the cost column.

 

The extension was not part of the cost to acquire Porcello. It makes no difference when the extension was given.

[Kimmi]

Bravo Doji! Just the way I see the thing.

 

No "Bravo" to Dojji on this one. Kimbrel and Papelbon were both overpays.

[a700hitter]

The extension was not part of the cost to acquire Porcello. It makes no difference when the extension was given.

The plan was to acquire him and extend him immediately before he played a game -- that would all be booked as an asset acquisition cost. The asset the acquired was Porcello for 5 years.

[Elktonnick]

No "Bravo" to Dojji on this one. Kimbrel and Papelbon were both overpays.

In the current market the concept of an "overpay" is utterly meaningless. The market price is what it is. The real question is whether the market price is worth it. The simple truth is one can't say whether the price the Red Sox paid for Kimbrel is worth it because he hasn't done anything yet. We have some data on the price they paid for Sandoval based on his performance. However, even though I think the Sandoval deal may have been a mistake we really won't know since the deal hasn't run its course and it still may be possible to wring some value out that deal as well.

[SoxHop]

In the current market the concept of an "overpay" is utterly meaningless. The market price is what it is. The real question is whether the market price is worth it. The simple truth is one can't say whether the price the Red Sox paid for Kimbrel is worth it because he hasn't done anything yet. We have some data on the price they paid for Sandoval based on his performance. However, even though I think the Sandoval deal may have been a mistake we really won't know since the deal hasn't run its course and it still may be possible to wring some value out that deal as well.

 

I would think an overpay would mean when one team pays much more than any other team would pay. Like a team bidding against themselves. Like with Arod, or Hanley. You definitely can't say something is an overpay if one other team would pay about the same price for a player.

[iortiz]

No "Bravo" to Dojji on this one. Kimbrel and Papelbon were both overpays.

 

I think Elk is right on this Kim. Pap already made a case, he earned every penny of that contract, the numbers are there.

 

On the other hand, Kimbrel still has to make a case. IMO he is going to be worthy as well, but we still have to see it.

[User Name]

How can you be this bad at logic? Per his post, Papelbon was definitely an overpay, because he didn't provide value relative to his contract, as it always happens with closers setting the market with their deals. Papelblows. Deal with it.

[iortiz]

hahaha Pap provided value before/after his contract, numbers are there, go figure. Also Pap is not "any closer". He is special, deal with it.

[User Name]

Papelyawn

[mvp 78]

Honestly, I can't trust him because he has a tribal tramp stamp.

[sk7326]

Yes, that's why the best relief pitchers make half or less what the best starters or position players make. True they are less vaulable than a position player or an SP. That argument however is not indefinitely valid. There is a point at which the market will bear a reasonable price for closing talent.

 

How many times have we failed to "easily" replace our closer just in the last 20 years? Papelbon is still the most successful closer we've had in years, perhaps the most successful closer we've ever had if you count only contributions made in a Red Sox uniform.

 

here's the bottom line: If it was that easy to find a great closer who could play solid high level baseball in the closer's position for more than 4 years at a time, we would have found more than 1 of them in the last 30 years. There IS a value to stability in the closer's role, we have ignored it to our peril in the past, we will ignore it to our peril in the future.

 

Derek Lowe, Keith Foulke, Tom Gordon, Koji Uehara, Rick Aguilera, Jonathan Papelbon ... all closers who have hung up good season(s) ... closer has not been much of a problem for us mostly

[User Name]

Derek Lowe, Keith Foulke, Tom Gordon, Koji Uehara, Rick Aguilera, Jonathan Papelbon ... all closers who have hung up good season(s) ... closer has not been much of a problem for us mostly

 

Ugueth Urbina....remember him?