2016 Starting Rotation

[cp176]

I've seen it suggested by various writers that Blake will still be the main starter and Vazquez will be the main backup. There is a belief that Hanigan would be traded. If that's the case, why wouldn't they just trade Hanigan and then call up Vazquez?

 

Why have 3 catchers at all? Do they have alternate plans for Swihart?

 

I have not read that it would be Swihart number one with Vazquez backing him up. Really doesn't seem to make any sense if Vazquez is as good as advertised. If he is - my prediction - if Hanigan stays, Swihart goes back to AAA or gets traded at some point. if Hannigan get trade, Swihart backs him up. It is the one position out there that you don't dick around with. If you have a great catcher who can hit just a little, he has to play. I haven't scoped it out seriously but I would imagine that Swihart's actual catching skills are probably matched by others not named Hanigan or Leon, in our system right now. He just isn't the one for the job presently. Maybe some day - not now.

[mvp 78]

I have not read that it would be Swihart number one with Vazquez backing him up. Really doesn't seem to make any sense if Vazquez is as good as advertised. If he is - my prediction - if Hanigan stays, Swihart goes back to AAA or gets traded at some point. if Hannigan get trade, Swihart backs him up. It is the one position out there that you don't dick around with. If you have a great catcher who can hit just a little, he has to play. I haven't scoped it out seriously but I would imagine that Swihart's actual catching skills are probably matched by others not named Hanigan or Leon, in our system right now. He just isn't the one for the job presently. Maybe some day - not now.

I'd rather have Swihart play than Leon.

 

If Vazquez doesn't start right away and there is no other corresponding move, I just don't understand the move.

[sk7326]

It's weird to not see Swihart down. That said, I THINK there is some logic - at least temporarily.

 

1. It was not like Sandoval was the primary backup at 3B. They have that covered.

2. We know Shaw can spell Ramirez at 1B, and I don't think they'd have any hesitation to give Swihart a 1B mitt if it came down to it

3. The Sox do not actually know what they have in Vasquez. Now, if he is not overwhelmed by big league pitching and can turn out the average on-base skills he has shown in the minors, then we have a starter. I can see some sense of risk aversion with dealing with Vasquez - at least early.

 

Maybe there will be a trade of Hanigan at some point. I would be worried if this condition held for a ton of time. In the age of 95 man pitching staffs, burning a position spot on a 3rd catcher is really dicey.

[mvp 78]

It's weird to not see Swihart down. That said, I THINK there is some logic - at least temporarily.

 

1. It was not like Sandoval was the primary backup at 3B. They have that covered.

2. We know Shaw can spell Ramirez at 1B, and I don't think they'd have any hesitation to give Swihart a 1B mitt if it came down to it

3. The Sox do not actually know what they have in Vasquez. Now, if he is not overwhelmed by big league pitching and can turn out the average on-base skills he has shown in the minors, then we have a starter. I can see some sense of risk aversion with dealing with Vasquez - at least early.

 

Maybe there will be a trade of Hanigan at some point. I would be worried if this condition held for a ton of time. In the age of 95 man pitching staffs, burning a position spot on a 3rd catcher is really dicey.

Our discussion is now moot.

[cp176]

It's weird to not see Swihart down. That said, I THINK there is some logic - at least temporarily.

 

1. It was not like Sandoval was the primary backup at 3B. They have that covered.

2. We know Shaw can spell Ramirez at 1B, and I don't think they'd have any hesitation to give Swihart a 1B mitt if it came down to it

3. The Sox do not actually know what they have in Vasquez. Now, if he is not overwhelmed by big league pitching and can turn out the average on-base skills he has shown in the minors, then we have a starter. I can see some sense of risk aversion with dealing with Vasquez - at least early.

 

Maybe there will be a trade of Hanigan at some point. I would be worried if this condition held for a ton of time. In the age of 95 man pitching staffs, burning a position spot on a 3rd catcher is really dicey.

 

If the team continues to hit as they are, if he hits at all it will be good enough. Assuming that he is as good behind the plate as advertised. Like everybody else, I like Swihart's athleticism, his focus, his attitude etc. etc. etc. He is just not ready to field the

position (as well as do all the other things you need to be able to do) that of the 8 is clearly the most important position on the field. I'm sure that he can improve but putting somebody behind the plate who can't get it done and try to convince everybody just to be patient is particularly ridiculous if you have someone who is better than average ready to go.

[mvp 78]

http://www.sportsonearth.com/article/172590324/tim-lincecum-trying-for-comeback

 

I know I've seen a few people wonder about Lincecum and if the Sox had any interest, so I'm posting this. I don't think Lincecum will ever be back.

[a700hitter]

http://www.sportsonearth.com/article/172590324/tim-lincecum-trying-for-comeback

 

I know I've seen a few people wonder about Lincecum and if the Sox had any interest, so I'm posting this. I don't think Lincecum will ever be back.

I wonder if there have been any pitchers to successfully return to the bigs after having this procedure.

[cp176]

I'd rather have Swihart play than Leon.

 

If Vazquez doesn't start right away and there is no other corresponding move, I just don't understand the move.

 

Not me. As much as it pains me to say so, I would prefer Leon or a catcher like Leon to Swihart at this time. I like a catcher who can get it done at the ml level defensively. Swihart - maybe someday not today.

[Dojji]

The problem is even defense guys need to hit at least a little, enough to avoid doing damage to the offense at any rate. Leon doesn't. He's an acceptable backup, but the negative offensive value doestroys a lot of the good stuff he does with the glove.

[mvp 78]

The problem is even defense guys need to hit at least a little, enough to avoid doing damage to the offense at any rate. Leon doesn't. He's an acceptable backup, but the negative offensive value doestroys a lot of the good stuff he does with the glove.

 

Yeah, his bat is horrendous. I think his glove is less than Hanigan and Vazquez by a lot.

[Dojji]

he's a pretty good defender, but his bat makes Kevin Cash look like Victor Martinez.

[cp176]

I get the fact about the bat. It was just kind of an either/or random thought. Someone who can hit a little but can't field the position or someone who can't hit all but who could field the position. My choice would always be B when talking about a catcher. Kind of thought that Leon was a pretty good defender. Was not aware that he wasn't. If he is a worse defender than Hanigan, he should not be on any roster. He would be just clogging things up like others have.

[Dojji]

The problem with judging the defensive skills of third and fourth string catchers like Sandy Leon is that they're not usually up in the majors long enough to let small variations fade into perspective. A starting catcher or even a backup will have dozens of games played to smooth out statistical oddities, so one bad play or one bad game won't ruin their entire season. a guy like Leon makes one mistake and his numbers for an entire year look terrible.

 

i think Leon has a great defensive toolset, but he'll never get enough reps in the big league to prove it because the bat is so bad and he's so much dead weight in a lineup that teams just don't want to put him out there when there's a game to be won.

[Dojji]

Just to put Leon in perspective, Baseball-Reference last year gave him 0.7 dWAR (wins above replacement based on his defense) which is actually really really really good for the very limited playing time he got. Over a full season that might be as many as 2 to 2.5 defensive wins.

 

Unfortunately it also gave him -0.8 oWAR, meaning his bat cost the team a tenth of a win more than his glove saved them. The glove is good, but the value of the glove is destroyed by pitcher-like offensive talents and results in a player that is at or marginally below replacement level.

[cp176]

I'm not trying to make any kind of case for Leon. What I would say is that we very might have been better off if we had used someone behind the plate who could field the position like Leon on a regular basis as opposed to throwing Swihart in there. Swihart is where he should be. We will see how he does.

[Kimmi]

The problem is even defense guys need to hit at least a little, enough to avoid doing damage to the offense at any rate. Leon doesn't. He's an acceptable backup, but the negative offensive value doestroys a lot of the good stuff he does with the glove.

 

Yeah, I'm all about the defensive catcher, but he has to be able to at least hit the Mendoza line. A good offensive team can hide a weak bat in the 9 hole, but it's hard to overcome a pretty much automatic out.

 

That said, after Vazquez was injured last year, I was somewhat relieved to hear that Leon was picked up.

[Kimmi]

I'm not trying to make any kind of case for Leon. What I would say is that we very might have been better off if we had used someone behind the plate who could field the position like Leon on a regular basis as opposed to throwing Swihart in there. Swihart is where he should be. We will see how he does.

 

I think Swihart can be much better defensively than some people give him credit for. As I said before, he has two things working against him. One is that he was called into action before he was ready, and two is that he will never match up to Vazquez defensively. Then again, not a lot of catchers will.

[cp176]

I think Swihart can be much better defensively than some people give him credit for. As I said before, he has two things working against him. One is that he was called into action before he was ready, and two is that he will never match up to Vazquez defensively. Then again, not a lot of catchers will.

 

I think that he will improve. He is athletic and he is willing to work hard. I don't care at all what type of hitter he becomes for sure. It is all about the position - catcher. As you know , I like the statistical approach a little but if you ask me, I saw no advancement from him defensively this spring. He has worked hard for sure but I see the same guy I saw last year. I get all of the talk about how much time it takes and being patient and whatever. I really do not think that he is going to morph into something that some think that he might. He is a good kid and I wish him well. I am a fan but ...

[User Name]

Based on what?

[cp176]

Based on what?

 

Nothing quantifiable for sure. Just an opinion. obviously means nothing when compared to every statistic that can be presented to show that he is getting better and better I am sure. Every scout and everbody who who has watched him would indicate that I am wrong. Hope I am! I like him as well. He is where he belongs and I like him too. Just an opinion.

[User Name]

There's not enough of a sample for stats to indicate anything about his performance as a catcher. I don't know if you're trying to discredit stats by being sly, or you're not familiar with the concept of sample size impact on all viable defensive statistics (which aren't very good at measuring catcher defense, but I digress).

 

However, some guys who have forgotten more baseball than you and I will ever know (starting by Jason Varitek) think that he has a floor of serviceable and a ceiling of great defensive catcher. I think he knows what he's talking about.

[cp176]

There's not enough of a sample for stats to indicate anything about his performance as a catcher. I don't know if you're trying to discredit stats by being sly, or you're not familiar with the concept of sample size impact on all viable defensive statistics (which aren't very good at measuring catcher defense, but I digress).

 

However, some guys who have forgotten more baseball than you and I will ever know (starting by Jason Varitek) think that he has a floor of serviceable and a ceiling of great defensive catcher. I think he knows what he's talking about.

 

i'm not really trying to be sly and i am not trying to discredit stats. but that being said, I don't think that saying that he could fall somewhere between serviceable and great is particularly difinitive. I'll agree about Varitek as well. I'm ok with his assessment too. Saying he could be serviceable is ok with me. My opinion probably is somewhat clouded by the hype that accompanied the kid in boston. I had not followed his career and truthfully I expected to see more. He may become serviceable or better. My opinion (which I get doesn't amount to much) is that he won't become a great major league catcher and yes if he could be packaged in a trade that would bring us young dependable pitching I would make the deal yesterday. Not trying to be a wise ass here either. I just expected see a little more coming out of the spring. Unfair? probably

[User Name]

Of course it''s unfair. He just doesn't have a ton of reps at catcher, and that's a position that needs a ton of work in order to learn the finer points of playing at the mlb level. He came up last year because of an emergency, and started the season in the big club waiting out Vasquez' recovery. That is what it boils down to: Kid's not ready.

[cp176]

Of course it''s unfair. He just doesn't have a ton of reps at catcher, and that's a position that needs a ton of work in order to learn the finer points of playing at the mlb level. He came up last year because of an emergency, and started the season in the big club waiting out Vasquez' recovery. That is what it boils down to: Kid's not ready.

 

I agree. In hindsight (I know all about hindsight), I think that it was a poor move to bring him up. Someone must have been smart enough to know that he just wasn't ready. Do you think that he was the next best option to have behind the plate after Vasquez and in front of Hanigan?

[User Name]

The only other guy they have is Leon, and he just can't hit.

[cp176]

The only other guy they have is Leon, and he just can't hit.

 

Agree again. thought Leon's name would come up. I do know how long it takes for catchers too develop in general. Even those who have done nothing else other than catch more often than not have to suffer the pains that accompany learning I craft that is probably one of the toughest to learn in athletics in general. If a kid can hit, quite often you can live with fielding deficiencies in most other positions (not all - but most). behind the plate - I don't think so. Someone must have felt he was ready. Leon would have been my choice as opposed to putting a kid that you felt someday might become an excellent receiver but was in no way ready at this time in that role. Maybe the experience did him good maybe it didn't.. I hope it did. He is a good kid and a solid athlete. Now you see how numb i can be - I would have gone with the hitless wonder as opposed to bringing up someone with great potential but was just not ready to be doing that job. too important a job.

[cp176]

back to the rotation - hope Dombrowski is as sick of Kelly's fragility as I am. At some point you just have to move on - see Sandoval and Castillo. Hope for Buchholz he can stay healthy. Maybe Kelly isn't at the move on point just yet but it won't be long. I don't think DD will be willing to give him multiple years to heal up.

[jacksonianmarch]

I think Kelly just threw his last pitch as a starting pitcher for Boston.

[Bellhorn04]

Trading Lackey for Kelly and Craig was a swell idea. The really ironic part is that the money they're paying Craig for nothing would have covered Lackey's salary for 3 seasons, 2015-2017. Oh well, Theo Epstein says thanks to his old pals.

[a700hitter]

Trading Lackey for Kelly and Craig was a swell idea. The really ironic part is that the money they're paying Craig for nothing would have covered Lackey's salary for 3 seasons, 2015-2017. Oh well, Theo Epstein says thanks to his old pals.

Bells, that hurts.