The Official Dead Horse Topics Thread

[Kimmi]

If you are referring to me, I give him plenty of credit for the job that he did. I'm just not going to place him on any type of pedestal. He was a role player in a truly great organization. I really don't think that he was any better or any worse than others before him. Actually on this forum Ben's career has taken on the proverbial life of its own. His accomplishments or lack thereof are not very important to me. By the way - my opinion- I think that he gets plenty of credit for his accomplishments from most of us. Once again though if you are going to critique him, you have to consider the whole body of work.

 

I am referring to pretty much everyone on this forum. No, Ben does not get the credit he deserves.

[Kimmi]

I disagree, I think the reverse is actually true. Those three bad years are marked by ever declining offenses and rotations that had become less and less dependable. That's a bad combination no matter how you dress it up. THe rotation we had by 2012 couldn't hold a candle to the one we'd used to win in 2007, and 2013 only looked better because John Lackey finally managed to pull his act together.

 

This roster has been eroding steadily for years, that's on Theo not ben. And it's going to take more than 1-2 offseasons to fix that kind of entropy.

 

IMO, those 3 bad seasons were marked by a lot of bad breaks, even taking natural decline into account. Also, 2012 doesn't even count because of Valentine.

 

So are you saying that the Sox will not be contenders this year or next?

[Kimmi]

Good job trolling the old fools. LOL

They can't help themselves...

 

Wait a minute....

 

Did you just call me a troll?

[Bellhorn04]

IMO, those 3 bad seasons were marked by a lot of bad breaks, even taking natural decline into account. Also, 2012 doesn't even count because of Valentine.

 

So are you saying that the Sox will not be contenders this year or next?

 

I think the 2015 team was a combination of bad decisions and bad breaks. I think a bad job was done putting together the 2015 pitching staff. There was really no reason for a team with the Sox resources to go into the season with a staff that questionable. That will always be my main beef with the job done by Ben.

[a700hitter]

He might not matter, but all the prospects that he acquired for our team matter.

And he called Doji and MVP old fools.

[SoxHop]

I think the 2015 team was a combination of bad decisions and bad breaks. I think a bad job was done putting together the 2015 pitching staff. There was really no reason for a team with the Sox resources to go into the season with a staff that questionable. That will always be my main beef with the job done by Ben.

 

I forget what starting pitchers were around to be had before 2015, but the group we got together seemed so off it was almost like they kicked the can on the rotation for a year. Maybe they were waiting for Price all along. I can't remember thinking much of value was out there before the 2015 season. I think Ben might of just folded to play another hand......

 

We tried to make improvements on the team, and then the dastardly three struck and had horrific seasons....... which sunk the titanic. Which let to the bloodletting and decapitation and the "I think it's time for you to leave" suggestion to Ben.

[Bellhorn04]

I forget what starting pitchers were around to be had before 2015, but the group we got together seemed so off it was almost like they kicked the can on the rotation for a year. Maybe they were waiting for Price all along. I can't remember thinking much of value was out there before the 2015 season. I think Ben might of just folded to play another hand......

 

But he obviously didn't have that luxury, as far as JH was concerned.

 

The 2015 opening day staff felt like it was Buchholz, Koji, Tazawa, and a bunch of names picked from a hat.

[SoxnCycles]

I forget what starting pitchers were around to be had before 2015, but the group we got together seemed so off it was almost like they kicked the can on the rotation for a year. Maybe they were waiting for Price all along. I can't remember thinking much of value was out there before the 2015 season. I think Ben might of just folded to play another hand......

 

We tried to make improvements on the team, and then the dastardly three struck and had horrific seasons....... which sunk the titanic. Which let to the bloodletting and decapitation and the "I think it's time for you to leave" suggestion to Ben.

 

The top three were Scherzer, Lester and Shields.

 

The Sox massively screwed up and lost Lester early.

I supposed they could've outbid everyone for Scherzer, but I think if they were willing to shell out that kind of money, they were waiting for Price.

They could've signed Shields, but does anyone think he would've helped enough to salvage last year's team?

[SoxnCycles]

Wait a minute....

 

Did you just call me a troll?

 

No one is immune from wanting to push buttons occasionally.

[Dojji]

But he obviously didn't have that luxury, as far as JH was concerned.

 

The 2015 opening day staff felt like it was Buchholz, Koji, Tazawa, and a bunch of names picked from a hat.

 

Then it's on ownership because they don't realize that the game of baseball is not the same game that it was when they took over. You can't just buy multiple top talents on the FA market anymore, if you ever could.

 

Parity means that more and more small markets are able to keep their stars, and many of the stars that would have hit the market are being traded and subsequently signed unless there's a reason not to simply re-sign them. So the guys that get to market are the ones there was a reason not to re-sign, either too badly flawed to make into a franchise centerpiece, or their pricepoint is too high even for a team with a payroll of between 70-90M, which is what the KC Royals spent on their championship roster and thanks to revenue sharing nearly every team in MLB can now afford to spend at least that much.

 

What that means is that 1 year turnarounds are harder than ever because fewer players than ever, and fewer of the best players than ever, are hitting FA, and unfortunately Henry and company think that 1 year turnarounds aren't that hard because of the "turnarounds" (really reversals of unusual bad luck and/or management) of 07 and 13. They have unrealistic expectations which leads to their GM's making occasionally unrealistic decisions, and as easy as it would be to blame the GM, that really goes right over his head to ownership, who need to provide a consistent vision of what they want the team to be that makes sense on the bottom line.

 

At least Dumbo is a seasoned and experienced enough GM that he knows when to tell the owner where to stick it. Cherington was too young to do the same, so we got the disastrously schizophrenic 14-15 offseason.

 

I really feel that Cherington's youth will turn out to have translated into an inability to tell ownership "No, that's a terrible idea, here's how we need to do this if you don't want to be made to look ridiculous" and was probably a contributing factor to the whole debacle last year. If he got fired, it was because he did what he was told and it made his boss look bad. Never be a yes man.

 

I think that the very least you can say of Dumbo is that he has his own ideas and he's going to battle with ownership to get that vision across and probably save ownership from itself a few times. That's why it's better to have a veteran GM take the office for a large market team over an internally promoted rookie GM most of the time.

Edited February 17, 2016 by Dojji

[mvp 78]

I am referring to pretty much everyone on this forum. No, Ben does not get the credit he deserves.

 

Ben did a great job with the 2013 team (not a fluke). He did a good job with the farm system. He s*** his pants in 2014 and 2015 though. Boston isn't a small market and shouldn't have to have disastrous results like that when ticket prices are so expensive and the payroll is towards the top of the league. His undoing was when he signed Hanley and Panda without adequately addressing the starting rotation.

[User Name]

Ben did a great job with the 2013 team (not a fluke). He did a good job with the farm system. He s*** his pants in 2014 and 2015 though. Boston isn't a small market and shouldn't have to have disastrous results like that when ticket prices are so expensive and the payroll is towards the top of the league. His undoing was when he signed Hanley and Panda without adequately addressing the starting rotation.

 

That's a good way to put it.

[Bellhorn04]

Then it's on ownership because they don't realize that the game of baseball is not the same game that it was when they took over. You can't just buy multiple top talents on the FA market anymore, if you ever could.

 

I don't know exactly how much of the 2015 pitching staff can be put on ownership and how much on Ben. We'll never know all the behind the scenes machinations. I tend to think a lot of it was on Ben.

 

You raise some interesting points in the rest of your post.

[sk7326]

Then it's on ownership because they don't realize that the game of baseball is not the same game that it was when they took over. You can't just buy multiple top talents on the FA market anymore, if you ever could.

 

Parity means that more and more small markets are able to keep their stars, and many of the stars that would have hit the market are being traded and subsequently signed unless there's a reason not to simply re-sign them. So the guys that get to market are the ones there was a reason not to re-sign, either too badly flawed to make into a franchise centerpiece, or their pricepoint is too high even for a team with a payroll of between 70-90M, which is what the KC Royals spent on their championship roster and thanks to revenue sharing nearly every team in MLB can now afford to spend at least that much.

 

What that means is that 1 year turnarounds are harder than ever because fewer players than ever, and fewer of the best players than ever, are hitting FA, and unfortunately Henry and company think that 1 year turnarounds aren't that hard because of the "turnarounds" (really reversals of unusual bad luck and/or management) of 07 and 13. They have unrealistic expectations which leads to their GM's making occasionally unrealistic decisions, and as easy as it would be to blame the GM, that really goes right over his head to ownership, who need to provide a consistent vision of what they want the team to be that makes sense on the bottom line.

 

At least Dumbo is a seasoned and experienced enough GM that he knows when to tell the owner where to stick it. Cherington was too young to do the same, so we got the disastrously schizophrenic 14-15 offseason.

 

I really feel that Cherington's youth will turn out to have translated into an inability to tell ownership "No, that's a terrible idea, here's how we need to do this if you don't want to be made to look ridiculous" and was probably a contributing factor to the whole debacle last year. If he got fired, it was because he did what he was told and it made his boss look bad. Never be a yes man.

 

I think that the very least you can say of Dumbo is that he has his own ideas and he's going to battle with ownership to get that vision across and probably save ownership from itself a few times. That's why it's better to have a veteran GM take the office for a large market team over an internally promoted rookie GM most of the time.

 

Dombrowski literally did everything his owner asked him in Detroit including the exact sorts of moves and trades you whine about here. The Red Sox decade was largely not built on the free agent market ... it was farm and trades. There were targeted FAs to fill gaps, which worked with varying degrees of success - but this was not the 2009 Yankees.

 

To me, the simplest explanation of 2014 and 2015 was a franchise in transition but a bit afraid of being in transition. What you get are half measures and band aids, instead of just getting on with business.

[User Name]

Dombrowski literally did everything his owner asked him in Detroit including the exact sorts of moves and trades you whine about here. The Red Sox decade was largely not built on the free agent market ... it was farm and trades. There were targeted FAs to fill gaps, which worked with varying degrees of success - but this was not the 2009 Yankees.

 

To me, the simplest explanation of 2014 and 2015 was a franchise in transition but a bit afraid of being in transition. What you get are half measures and band aids, instead of just getting on with business.

 

It's like we have a mental connection. Except you're an older white guy, and I'm a fat brown guy from donkeyland.

[Bellhorn04]

Dombrowski literally did everything his owner asked him in Detroit

 

What exactly does this mean?

[sk7326]

What exactly does this mean?

 

Many prospect for veteran trades. Signing Prince Fielder. A lot of the sort of "buying a pennant" type moves. All because the Little Caesar's guy is getting old. Most of his trades were plusses - he is a good baseball man. But I was taking issue with how Doj characterized Dombrowski vs how he actually rolled.

[User Name]

What exactly does this mean?

 

I lived in Michigan during the time Fielder was signed. DD literally laughed at the notion at signing the guy. Boras went over his head to Illitch, who ordered DD in what was a very public disagreement, to sign Fielder. DD wanted no part of Fielder.

[mvp 78]

I don't know exactly how much of the 2015 pitching staff can be put on ownership and how much on Ben. We'll never know all the behind the scenes machinations. I tend to think a lot of it was on Ben.

 

You raise some interesting points in the rest of your post.

 

Ben is just shorthand for "Front Office." No one really knows who did what and it doesn't matter. When things go wrong Ben, Larry, Tom and John were all equally to blame. When things were going well they can all equally share the adoration.

[sk7326]

It's like we have a mental connection. Except you're an older white guy, and I'm a fat brown guy from donkeyland.

 

LOL (looking) - I am definitely fat and brown

[User Name]

LOL (looking) - I am definitely fat and brown

 

That explains a lot!

[Kimmi]

I think the 2015 team was a combination of bad decisions and bad breaks. I think a bad job was done putting together the 2015 pitching staff. There was really no reason for a team with the Sox resources to go into the season with a staff that questionable. That will always be my main beef with the job done by Ben.

 

I really thought the Sox would add another starter last season, after going the lengths they did with signing Hanley and Pablo. That said, 2 points to take note of here are that

 

1. Henry was not willing to sign a pitcher to a long term contract last offseason and

 

2. Despite the lack of a true ace, the mediocre staff should have been good enough had they and the rest of the team performed to reasonable expectations.

[a700hitter]

I really thought the Sox would add another starter last season, after going the lengths they did with signing Hanley and Pablo. That said, 2 points to take note of here are that

 

1. Henry was not willing to sign a pitcher to a long term contract last offseason and

 

2. Despite the lack of a true ace, the mediocre staff should have been good enough had they and the rest of the team performed to reasonable expectations.

To refute your 2 points:

 

1. It is the GM's job to convince ownership of your strategy. He either had the same strategy as Henry or failed to communicate a winning strategy. Either way, he failed.

 

2. No, the 2015 staff was not good enough, not on paper and not on the field. Many of us knew that going into the season.

[Bellhorn04]

I really thought the Sox would add another starter last season, after going the lengths they did with signing Hanley and Pablo. That said, 2 points to take note of here are that

 

1. Henry was not willing to sign a pitcher to a long term contract last offseason and

 

2. Despite the lack of a true ace, the mediocre staff should have been good enough had they and the rest of the team performed to reasonable expectations.

 

1. We don't really know what Henry was thinking last offseason. He did ultimately offer Lester 6 years and 135 million. Whether that was just for PR reasons, who knows?

 

2. They put themselves in the position of having such a mediocre staff by cutting loose 2 #2 starters in Lester and Lackey, and not replacing them with anything comparable. Then they compounded the risk by putting together a bad bullpen.

[Kimmi]

The top three were Scherzer, Lester and Shields.

 

The Sox massively screwed up and lost Lester early.

I supposed they could've outbid everyone for Scherzer, but I think if they were willing to shell out that kind of money, they were waiting for Price.

They could've signed Shields, but does anyone think he would've helped enough to salvage last year's team?

 

The Sox really did mess up big time with Lester.

 

I don't think they were waiting for Price. Henry did not want to shell out that kind of money for an aging pitcher, period. But after last season, panic and impatience set in, and he ends up okaying an outbid of the next highest team by $30 mil for Price.

 

I love that the Sox have Price, but missing out on Lester for Homer Bailey money, then signing Price to the contract that he was signed for are not among Henry's wisest moves, if you ask me.

[Bellhorn04]

These are such dead horses...we've killed a whole herd of horses now. But what can you do, there's nothing else to talk about at the moment.

[Kimmi]

Dombrowski literally did everything his owner asked him in Detroit including the exact sorts of moves and trades you whine about here. The Red Sox decade was largely not built on the free agent market ... it was farm and trades. There were targeted FAs to fill gaps, which worked with varying degrees of success - but this was not the 2009 Yankees.

 

To me, the simplest explanation of 2014 and 2015 was a franchise in transition but a bit afraid of being in transition. What you get are half measures and band aids, instead of just getting on with business.

 

I agree with UN. It's like we have a mental connection.

[Kimmi]

To refute your 2 points:

 

1. It is the GM's job to convince ownership of your strategy. He either had the same strategy as Henry or failed to communicate a winning strategy. Either way, he failed.

 

2. No, the 2015 staff was not good enough, not on paper and not on the field. Many of us knew that going into the season.

 

The GM can only do so much as far as convincing ownership of what to do. Personally, I think Henry and Ben were very much on the same page. And I think that their strategy of not handing out the big contract to an aging pitcher was the right one, though I think they could have re-signed Lester for a reasonable amount had they done it during ST.

 

I don't think Dombrowski had to convince Henry of anything. Henry, along with this fan base, just didn't have the patience. Signing Price was a knee-jerk reaction to the last two seasons. As I just posted, not his wisest move.

 

It doesn't sound like Dombrowski convinced Ilitch of much when he was in Detroit. In fact, it sounds like Dombrowski was more or less a puppet, doing what Ilitch instructed him to do.

[Kimmi]

1. We don't really know what Henry was thinking last offseason. He did ultimately offer Lester 6 years and 135 million. Whether that was just for PR reasons, who knows?

 

2. They put themselves in the position of having such a mediocre staff by cutting loose 2 #2 starters in Lester and Lackey, and not replacing them with anything comparable. Then they compounded the risk by putting together a bad bullpen.

 

They messed up with Lester.

 

I think trading Lackey became more or less necessary once they screwed up with Lester. Also, the trade should not have turned out as bad as it did.

 

As far as the BP goes, they didn't put together a bad BP. They put together a reasonable BP where pretty much everything they threw out there stunk. Bad luck.

[a700hitter]

The GM can only do so much as far as convincing ownership of what to do. Personally, I think Henry and Ben were very much on the same page. And I think that their strategy of not handing out the big contract to an aging pitcher was the right one, though I think they could have re-signed Lester for a reasonable amount had they done it during ST.

 

I don't think Dombrowski had to convince Henry of anything. Henry, along with this fan base, just didn't have the patience. Signing Price was a knee-jerk reaction to the last two seasons. As I just posted, not his wisest move.

 

It doesn't sound like Dombrowski convinced Ilitch of much when he was in Detroit. In fact, it sounds like Dombrowski was more or less a puppet, doing what Ilitch instructed him to do.

I wasn't making a comparison to DD-- just noting that your comments do not excuse BC's failure in 2015. Edited February 18, 2016 by a700hitter