The Official Dead Horse Topics Thread

[jung]

The problem with Spier's piece is that it suggests a degree of organizational structure that is just short of rampant cross functionality when it fact, the Sox organization has often been plagued by rampant cross functionality and the overstepping of virtually all of those boundaries of which Sprier speaks so eloquently.

 

Drove Theo first nuts and eventually out.

 

It worked to some degree early in this ownership groups tenure, if you take the fans view that "works" means being competitive and winning championships. I think as much because they were so dedicated as a group to bringing a championship here and because Theo was at least two steps ahead of anywhere BC ever thought of being both as a pure GM and in Theo's unwillingness to just roll over and allow Larry to scratch his belly.

 

Since then it has "worked" as a business because Larry is a "business man" of estimable talents who understands the business value of assets and how to manipulate them. They have a ball park that is a "destination" in baseball and they are also able to squeeze out more capacity as THEY see fit, always keeping the total capacity of the park in such a state that tickets are for the most part in demand and virtually always outstrips the supply. I always laugh when people talk about the BURDEN Fenway represents to this ownership group. Burden my butt end. They will be dragged out of this place kicking and screaming. But as it turns out, no truer words were ever spoken than those by JH in the last few years of the previous organizational structure. "LARRY RUNS THE RED SOX", spoken with enough emphasis so that you did not even have to be that bright to read between the lines.. Your darn right he did and Larry's favorite business environment is Marketing and Sales....Hence the concentration on bricks and bats instead of the field performance of the team.

 

I believe Larry felt that this ownership group had given the fans two championships in short order and he, Larry, was going to make it his business to maximize their monetary return and increase the asset value of the business. JH for his part let Larry have his head....to a fault as it should be clear to us how easy Larry would have been to convince on the Panda and Hanley signings just as an example of how bad things can get when your defacto Pres of Baseball Ops really sees that function through the prism of the club Presidency.

 

They own the Network that carries Sox baseball. Tom gets the NESN piece and has done a terrific job with that again from a business perspective even given the almost hokey nature of its production capabilities. The business aspects of the Sox is a thing of beauty and largely why if you could just separate out the defacto Pres of Baseball Ops function that Larry had from the more standard functions of the club President, Larry is the best Club President this club ever had...hands down...nobody else who had that job can even polish his shoes.

Edited December 31, 2015 by jung

[Elktonnick]

Personally I have no gripes at all with John Henry. I'm quite fond of him, in fact. My reasoning is simple. Since he bought the team we have 3 championships and he continues to spend a shitload on the team. Plenty of mistakes have been made, sure. For me the mistakes are more than made up for by the aforementioned.

 

You are right. Speier later in the article I posted an excerpt from above quotes a former associate as saying that Henry has no leadership or interpersonal skills. I think that explains a lot.

[Elktonnick]

The problem with Spier's piece is that it suggests a degree of organizational structure that is just short of rampant cross functionality when it fact, the Sox organization has often been plagued by rampant cross functionality and the overstepping of virtually all of those boundaries of which Sprier speaks so eloquently.

 

Drove Theo first nuts and eventually out.

 

It worked to some degree early in this ownership groups tenure, if you take the fans view that "works" means being competitive and winning championships. I think as much because they were so dedicated as a group to bringing a championship here and because Theo was at least two steps ahead of anywhere BC ever thought of being both as a pure GM and in Theo's unwillingness to just roll over and allow Larry to scratch his belly.

 

Since then it has "worked" as a business because Larry is a "business man" of estimable talents who understands the business value of assets and how to manipulate them. They have a ball park that is a "destination" in baseball and they are also able to squeeze out more capacity as THEY see fit, always keeping the total capacity of the park in such a state that tickets are for the most part in demand and virtually always outstrips the supply. I always laugh when people talk about the BURDEN Fenway represents to this ownership group. Burden my butt end. They will be dragged out of this place kicking and screaming. But as it turns out, no truer words were ever spoken than those by JH in the last few years of the previous organizational structure. "LARRY RUNS THE RED SOX", spoken with enough emphasis so that you did not even have to be that bright to read between the lines.. Your darn right he did and Larry's favorite business environment is Marketing and Sales....Hence the concentration on bricks and bats instead of the field performance of the team.

 

I believe Larry felt that this ownership group had given the fans two championships in short order and he, Larry, was going to make it his business to maximize their monetary return and increase the asset value of the business. JH for his part let Larry have his head....to a fault as it should be clear to us how easy Larry would have been to convince on the Panda and Hanley signings just as an example of how bad things can get when your defacto Pres of Baseball Ops really sees that function through the prism of the club Presidency.

 

They own the Network that carries Sox baseball. Tom gets the NESN piece and has done a terrific job with that again from a business perspective even given the almost hokey nature of its production capabilities. The business aspects of the Sox is a thing of beauty and largely why if you could just separate out the defacto Pres of Baseball Ops function that Larry had from the more standard functions of the club President, Larry is the best Club President this club ever had...hands down...nobody else who had that job can even polish his shoes.

 

The Speier article was written in May of 2013. The part I quoted was the first of three parts. I haven't had a chance to read the other two yet. I think part of the rationale of the piece was Henry Werner and Lucchino wanted to rebut some of what was written in Shaughnessy's book on the Francona firing

[mvp 78]

"The problem with Spier's piece is that it suggests a degree of organizational structure that is just short of rampant cross functionality when it fact, the Sox organization has often been plagued by rampant cross functionality and the overstepping of virtually all of those boundaries of which Sprier speaks so eloquently."

 

Vintage jung. Back in midseason form! I like it!

[User Name]

Personally I have no gripes at all with John Henry. I'm quite fond of him, in fact. My reasoning is simple. Since he bought the team we have 3 championships and he continues to spend a shitload on the team. Plenty of mistakes have been made, sure. For me the mistakes are more than made up for by the aforementioned.

 

Common sense! I like it!

[Youk Of The Nation]

I was not active when Suns was banned. I never understood the hate that that kid received.

 

Someday I hope to know what happened.

 

He repeatedly posted a bunch of "Go Guardians"-type crap in gamethreads, and when people, including me, asked him to stop he just started doing it more while increasingly displaying a petulant and obnoxious attitude about it.

 

However, it was four years ago when he was 16 years old, and I realize that people mature in many ways between 16-20, (and not at all in other ways), so when I happened to see him browsing the site a couple of weeks ago, I unbanned him and sent him this PM:

 

I realize that you were 16 when I banned you and that it was three or four years ago. I saw you browsing the site, or at least attempting to, and decided that it was highly likely that you have matured somewhat now that you have reached college-age, and it is unfair to hold on to an opinion of someone that you formed when they were in high school. I hope, if you decide to continue posting, that we can both agree on that. Welcome back.

 

I felt this was justified, as I felt there was a huge difference between a 16-year old kid intentionally trying to piss people off and a 20-year old kid who has grown a bit, and a big difference between that person and someone who was banned just for being an adult douchebag who is unlikely to change (for example, everyone else who has ever been banned from this site).

 

Anyways, he hasn't posted, he might have left the site before I unbanned him and sent the message, so if he happens to come online again he'll find out he can post.

[mvp 78]

^GOAT = Youk

[Kimmi]

I can see how you would think my statement was misleading if you also think that Henry was premature in firing Ben.You don't wish to have anything upset your world view.

 

I don't know why you insist on making comments like this.

[Kimmi]

Is being "less" fired sort like bring a little bit pregnant rhetorically speaking?

 

Once again, I agree that Cherington was "fired", though not technically so. Or more accurately, he was demoted.

 

My statement that Cherington was less fired than Dombrowski is for those who think that Cherington must be incompetent because he was fired, and Henry's opinon is the bottom line, yet turn right around and think Dombrowski is competent and what this team needs when he was fired as well. You can't have it both ways.

[Kimmi]

Hard to say, but it might not have happened if Henry's old pal Dombrowski hadn't just become available.

 

I agree with this. Henry made statements just a couple of weeks earlier that Ben was their long term GM. I don't think Ben would have been replaced if Dombrowski hadn't been let go.

[Kimmi]

The heroes on this board love to attack Kimmi because they know she's too nice to tell them what she really thinks.

Gutless turds.

 

As I've said before, I have to take the cheap shots as a compliment. It's their last resort.

[Kimmi]

I think Kimmi is great. She brings a different perspective to the board. I also like that she doesn't back down. I don't always agree with her opinions, but that should be ok.

 

The name calling that has been flung around here is dumb, but way better than it has in been the past. There really hasn't been any bad personal attacks since the last time someone was banned.

 

Thank you MVP. I like when people disagree with my opinion. If we all agreed on everything, what fun would that be?

[Kimmi]

I don't think there is a poster here who dislikes kimmi even though half of them disagree with her much of the time. I hope the feeling is mutual for her. I don't think she feels attacked on this site, and she definitely doesn't need anyone to defend her or speak for her.

 

I have no problem with people disagreeing with me. I enjoy a good debate/discussion. That's why I come here.

[a700hitter]

I have no problem with people disagreeing with me. I enjoy a good debate/discussion. That's why I come here.

Stop agreeing with me. You are ruining everything! LOL!!

[Kimmi]

She also has about 4,200 posts since joining in January so I would hazard a guess she generally enjoys posting here.

 

If I did not find posting here enjoyable, I would not be here.

 

As far as the 4200 posts, that just goes to show that I have no life. Or that I need to correct other posters a lot.

[User Name]

Number two. Lots of people here in need of correctin'.

[Kimmi]

Here he would have been dropped so far down the totem pole that he would have had to look up to find the bottom. Would not have been surprised if they dropped him all the way to Dir. of Player Personnel which does not sound like much. But where you were one step away from the defacto Pres Baseball Ops and maybe considering yourself the heir apparent to that job once JH separated out Larry's role as he should have and eventually did, that Dir of Player Personnel job represents a heck of a drop.

 

DD gets the aforementioned Larry role and becomes Pres of Baseball Ops in fact. Kennedy takes the other half of Larry's job and becomes Pres of the Organization. It was rumored right from the start that DD would hire his own GM and the max role BC is looking at is now at least two rungs below where he had hoped to go. That would have been a tough tough thing for anybody to swallow I would wager. The end would have been IMO far worse for BC if he had hung on in that situation. Ultimately he could easily have been driven so far down the totem pole as to be invisible and still could have found himself fired this time from a much less visible position. Remember how long BC has been with this one club..... Now he is backed that far down the ladder doing stuff he was doing 6-7 years before. In spite of my obvious disappointment in BC as Red Sox GM, this was the smart move for him to make. He has left open much more opportunity for himself doing this than if he had hung on in Boston IMO.

 

What are you talking about with Ben being knocked so far down the totem pole? He would have retained his GM title had he stayed and would be right below Dombrowski. Yes, he was demoted, but not so far down the totem pole as to be invisible.

[Kimmi]

Leaving Boston was probably Ben's right move and one I may have done myself if I had been in his position. But make no mistake about it, Ben was fired. Henry just did it in such a devious way that it gave him "plausible denial" as we used to say.

 

If I were Ben, I would have left too.

[jung]

IMO, there is no way JH would have allowed Larry's contract to expire and then just kept BC around. Clearly what they had was not working. The convoluted, cross functional organization that JH had was IMO entirely a result of his over reliance on Larry and his lack of trust in BC. Where do we think Bobby V came from when BC clearly wanted somebody else?

 

I actually do not know what JH would have done if DD had not become available. Though nobody is going to admit to it, I would not be at all surprised if JH new something was happening with DD and Detroit. I seriously doubt JH just decided late in the 2015 season to let Larry's contract expire and THAT was the moved that spelled the end for the organization JH had and that also for all intents meant the end for BC. I expect JH had put more forethought into that and again IMO, there is no way he keeps BC around without someone JH truly trusts in complete control of Baseball Ops. How many other guys were available that have some history with JH as that was the only kind of guy JH was going to hire....somebody with history with him that JH trusted. The guy that ended up in Seattle, Jerry Dipoto probably was a possibility though I think a scary one. But if you told me that for JH it would have come down to Dipoto and BC, I would bet JH would have picked Dipoto if only because he clearly did not have confidence in BC. Just his public comments about pitchers over 30 and the fact that those comments had teeth tells you JH simply had no confidence in BC.

 

Honestly I do think that the way JH insists on this history coupled with trust thing really limits his options. He really does not have a history with that many guys. in baseball.

[Elktonnick]

Once again, I agree that Cherington was "fired", though not technically so. Or more accurately, he was demoted.

 

My statement that Cherington was less fired than Dombrowski is for those who think that Cherington must be incompetent because he was fired, and Henry's opinon is the bottom line, yet turn right around and think Dombrowski is competent and what this team needs when he was fired as well. You can't have it both ways.

 

Dombrowski situation in Detroit is irrelevant to Cherrington's in Boston. For the record I believe Cherrington was fired because Lucchino left. My opinion is that Cherrington was more a Lucchino protege (if that's the right word) than a Henry or Werner. Once Larry was going to move on, Henry simply didn't have confidence that Ben could do the top Baseball Ops job without a strong personality like LL overseeing him. The chain of events seem to bear that out.

 

People get fired for different reasons. Dombrowski's was CEO and had more authority in Detroit then Ben had in Boston. One could surmise that DD could have been released in Detroit as a mutual parting of the ways so he could accept the Boston job. The fact the Dombrowski was out of a job only two weeks is just too coincidental. Or Dombrowski could hve been "fired" because after so much time together he and the owner got sick of one another.

 

Ben isn't totally incompetent. He just doesn't have the requisite competency to do the job that Dombrowski now has. That isn't just my opinion but obviously John Henry's as well.

Edited January 1, 2016 by Elktonnick

[Kimmi]

Personally I have no gripes at all with John Henry. I'm quite fond of him, in fact. My reasoning is simple. Since he bought the team we have 3 championships and he continues to spend a shitload on the team. Plenty of mistakes have been made, sure. For me the mistakes are more than made up for by the aforementioned.

 

I have no gripes with Henry. I don't like that Ben was fired, but I can understand the move.

[Elktonnick]

I don't know why you insist on making comments like this.

 

I didn't mean it to be offensive or demeaning but you have a very strong point of view.

[Elktonnick]

IMO, there is no way JH would have allowed Larry's contract to expire and then just kept BC around. Clearly what they had was not working. The convoluted, cross functional organization that JH had was IMO entirely a result of his over reliance on Larry and his lack of trust in BC. Where do we think Bobby V came from when BC clearly wanted somebody else?

 

I actually do not know what JH would have done if DD had not become available. Though nobody is going to admit to it, I would not be at all surprised if JH new something was happening with DD and Detroit. I seriously doubt JH just decided late in the 2015 season to let Larry's contract expire and THAT was the moved that spelled the end for the organization JH had and that also for all intents meant the end for BC. I expect JH had put more forethought into that and again IMO, there is no way he keeps BC around without someone JH truly trusts in complete control of Baseball Ops. How many other guys were available that have some history with JH as that was the only kind of guy JH was going to hire....somebody with history with him that JH trusted. The guy that ended up in Seattle, Jerry Dipoto probably was a possibility though I think a scary one. But if you told me that for JH it would have come down to Dipoto and BC, I would bet JH would have picked Dipoto if only because he clearly did not have confidence in BC. Just his public comments about pitchers over 30 and the fact that those comments had teeth tells you JH simply had no confidence in BC.

 

Honestly I do think that the way JH insists on this history coupled with trust thing really limits his options. He really does not have a history with that many guys. in baseball.

 

I also believe that Dombrowski coming to Boston had been in the works well before DD was released. I like you see this all coming about when LL decided either to step aside or was pushed. It has been well reported the JH has zero people skills so it is no wonder that he would want some one like DD who he had worked with before to in effect take LL's place "running" the Red Sox.

[jung]

What are you talking about with Ben being knocked so far down the totem pole? He would have retained his GM title had he stayed and would be right below Dombrowski. Yes, he was demoted, but not so far down the totem pole as to be invisible.

 

I don't think so. DD would have gotten to pick his own GM. There is no way you hire a guy and make him head of Baseball Ops and then take both the Manager decision and the GM decision out of his hands. The Sox decided to play the Manager decision the way they did for a number of reasons that had nothing to do with DD. The Sox long history with the Jimmy Fund and whole Cancer issue as the Sox have played it in the past left them deciding to hold the job for Farrell. But taking both jobs out of DD's hands simply would not have happened. That would have left BC in some function that has nothing to do with how they title him. BC would not have been the functional GM of this team IMO even if they chose to simply sling a bunch of VP's in between DD and BC.

 

It should be obvious by now that the "titles" within the Sox organization are not as meaningful as you would hope they would be. We still have Larry in a titled role though he no longer even has a contract and is not really functioning in any real capacity directly with the Sox.

[Bellhorn04]

If I did not find posting here enjoyable, I would not be here.

 

As far as the 4200 posts, that just goes to show that I have no life.

 

Don't worry, this forum is a big part of my social life now too.

[Bellhorn04]

Number two. Lots of people here in need of correctin'.

 

And you're just the man to do it.

[Bellhorn04]

I also believe that Dombrowski coming to Boston had been in the works well before DD was released. I like you see this all coming about when LL decided either to step aside or was pushed. It has been well reported the JH has zero people skills so it is no wonder that he would want some one like DD who he had worked with before to in effect take LL's place "running" the Red Sox.

 

But DD was a perfectly logical choice from a baseball perspective don't you think?

[Elktonnick]

But DD was a perfectly logical choice from a baseball perspective don't you think?

 

Absolutely

[Elktonnick]

I don't think so. DD would have gotten to pick his own GM. There is no way you hire a guy and make him head of Baseball Ops and then take both the Manager decision and the GM decision out of his hands. The Sox decided to play the Manager decision the way they did for a number of reasons that had nothing to do with DD. The Sox long history with the Jimmy Fund and whole Cancer issue as the Sox have played it in the past left them deciding to hold the job for Farrell. But taking both jobs out of DD's hands simply would not have happened. That would have left BC in some function that has nothing to do with how they title him. BC would not have been the functional GM of this team IMO even if they chose to simply sling a bunch of VP's in between DD and BC.

 

It should be obvious by now that the "titles" within the Sox organization are not as meaningful as you would hope they would be. We still have Larry in a titled role though he no longer even has a contract and is not really functioning in any real capacity directly with the Sox.

 

I still want to know who gets Jeremy Kaperstein's yellow headphones, Larry?

[Kimmi]

IMO, there is no way JH would have allowed Larry's contract to expire and then just kept BC around. Clearly what they had was not working. The convoluted, cross functional organization that JH had was IMO entirely a result of his over reliance on Larry and his lack of trust in BC. Where do we think Bobby V came from when BC clearly wanted somebody else?

 

I actually do not know what JH would have done if DD had not become available. Though nobody is going to admit to it, I would not be at all surprised if JH new something was happening with DD and Detroit. I seriously doubt JH just decided late in the 2015 season to let Larry's contract expire and THAT was the moved that spelled the end for the organization JH had and that also for all intents meant the end for BC. I expect JH had put more forethought into that and again IMO, there is no way he keeps BC around without someone JH truly trusts in complete control of Baseball Ops. How many other guys were available that have some history with JH as that was the only kind of guy JH was going to hire....somebody with history with him that JH trusted. The guy that ended up in Seattle, Jerry Dipoto probably was a possibility though I think a scary one. But if you told me that for JH it would have come down to Dipoto and BC, I would bet JH would have picked Dipoto if only because he clearly did not have confidence in BC. Just his public comments about pitchers over 30 and the fact that those comments had teeth tells you JH simply had no confidence in BC.

 

Honestly I do think that the way JH insists on this history coupled with trust thing really limits his options. He really does not have a history with that many guys. in baseball.

 

IMO, Larry sticking his nose where it didn't belong was the problem. I was really hopeful that once Larry was gone, Ben would be given the autonomy that he needed.

 

I know I've mentioned this several times, but I don't think it's an insignificant opinion that several baseball executives agree that most of the mistakes that Ben made came from higher up in the organization. Ben can only do his job as well as others allow him to.

 

Theo went through the same thing when he was here. People often criticized Theo for his free agent signings. Look at what he has been able to do with the Cubs when he was given the power. I bet Ben could do the same.