Dombrowski in Cherington Out

[Kimmi]

It wasn't an either/or choice. We could have had both in our OF. I'd much rather have that than Betts and Hanley. Hanley has been a complete waste of money and he will continue to be so, because he is not and will not become an adequate OFer. Imagine the havoc that Ellsbury and Betts would cause for the opponents defenses.

 

You are forgetting that JBJ was actually the player that was in the equation at the time that Ellsbury became a free agent. Hanley was nowhere in the picture. The FO made a decision between signing Ells to a ridiculous contract, which it is, or going with a young, cost controlled defensively elite center fielder in JBJ. They went with the latter, which was the correct decision. JBJ didn't work out last year, opening the door for Mookie. However, having both Ells and Mookie was never really an option at the time of the signing, only in hindsight. I will say, though, that even in hindsight, signing Ells to that contract would have been a mistake.

[Kimmi]

It's very questionable that letting Ellsbury go was a mistake. He has a .736 OPS for the Yanks and has missed a lot of games. Last night the Yankee announcers were grumbling about the fact that he didn't start the game, with a RHP on the mound, and yet he was healthy enough to be brought into the game in the 7th inning.

 

And it's not even the first years of the contract that you typically worry about.

[Kimmi]

Also, this is a misinterpretation of what I am saying, so it is not straightforward. I said that Ben made a series of bad moves after 2013 dismantling and ruining that team. He kept the wrong guys, let the wrong guys walk and brought in the wrong replacements. Does that mean that it was a mistake to let Ellsbury go? I wouldn't conclude that yet, but surely his effort to restock the OF has been an abject failure. In 2015, I would take Ellsbury having an injured off year over 2015 Hanley without a doubt. That does not mean that I am saying that we should have paid him $142 million, but in the first 2 years after letting him walk the FO really s*** the bed with their alternatives, and they haven't saved a lot of money in the process.

 

After the 2013 season, who did Ben really let go besides Ellsbury? Lester and Lackey were still on the team.

[Kimmi]

To put it all on Bobby Valentine is ********.

 

I'll put it this way. If Francona had remained the manager that year, I bet the team would have rallied around him and would have contended that season. And I say that with 100% conviction.

[a700hitter]

After the 2013 season, who did Ben really let go besides Ellsbury? Lester and Lackey were still on the team.

 

Whom he replaced with a rookie that was completely out of his depth hitting under .200 in over 500 plate appearances and Grady Sizemore who may have been worse. The dismantling process was over 2 seasons. The mistakes in 2013 were relying on too many untested rookies in too many key positions, having a horrible replacement plan for one of the most important members of the 2013 team (Ellsbury), and keeping the guys who were breaking down at a rapid pace -- Victorino, Buchholz, and he signed Napoli for 2 completely useless seasons.

[Kimmi]

He built a team to win in the short term in 2013. They won short term and lost long term. No surprise there.

 

I guess that depends on your definition of "long term". They lost the next 2 years, but I think this team looks great for the next several years, provided the right moves are made this offseason. In other words, the moves the FO made in 2013 (or in 2014 or 2015) did not sacrifice the team's future.

[a700hitter]

I'll put it this way. If Francona had remained the manager that year, I bet the team would have rallied around him and would have contended that season. And I say that with 100% conviction.

 

And I say with conviction that you would be wrong. Francona had been tuned out by that team. Also, the first of Ben's terrible moves came that year in converting Bard to a starter and stubbornly sticking to it even though Bobby V openly questioned whether the kid could do it. Bobby V may be obnoxious and arrogant, but he is a good baseball guy, and when he says a kid can't do it, Ben should have listened. That 2012 move with Bard was a forwarning of many future ill-conceived moves that he stuck to stubbornly and foolishly ruining 2014 and 2015. It was the first of his many very stupid moves. People forget that one.

Edited August 23, 2015 by a700hitter

[Kimmi]

Whom he replaced with a rookie that was completely out of his depth hitting under .200 in over 500 plate appearances and Grady Sizemore who may have been worse. The dismantling process was over 2 seasons. The mistakes in 2013 were relying on too many untested rookies in too many key positions, having a horrible replacement plan for one of the most important members of the 2013 team (Ellsbury), and keeping the guys who were breaking down at a rapid pace -- Victorino, Buchholz, and he signed Napoli for 2 completely useless seasons.

 

I agree that in 2013, it was a mistake to rely on too many untested rookies, without having a plan B. However, signing Ellsbury to a 7 year deal was not the solution to that. The solution to that was having a better short term back up plan in case JBJ faltered.

 

Victorino and Buchholz were still under contract. Re-signing Napoli was not a bad plan. It just didn't work. There were several here who were even suggesting at the beginning of the season not to be so sure that Napoli would be gone after this season.

[a700hitter]

I agree that in 2013, it was a mistake to rely on too many untested rookies, without having a plan B. However, signing Ellsbury to a 7 year deal was not the solution to that. The solution to that was having a better short term back up plan in case JBJ faltered.

 

Victorino and Buchholz were still under contract. Re-signing Napoli was not a bad plan. It just didn't work. There were several here who were even suggesting at the beginning of the season not to be so sure that Napoli would be gone after this season.

 

I am not saying that the solution was to sign Ellsbury to a big contract. But he had to come up with a better replacement plan than he did over the next 2 seasons. As for Ellsbury, we would be 2 years into his 7 year contract, and we have done terribly in redeploying that money, so as of today we would be no worse off if we gave Ellsbury the big contract. We will have to wait 5 more seasons to know definitively if it was a mistake or not.

 

As for Victorino and Buch being under contract, that is not an excuse. We had squeezed the last useful drop out of Victorino, and after 2023, he had trade value. He should have been traded. The problem is that he kept the guys that had nothing left. He gets paid to know what a player has left in the tank. Branch Rickey used to say that it was better to trade a player one season too soon than one season too late. Ben always wanted until guys were a total bust.

Edited August 23, 2015 by a700hitter

[Kimmi]

And I say with conviction that you would be wrong. Francona had been tuned out by that team. Also, the first of Ben's terrible moves came that year in converting Bard to a starter and stubbornly sticking to it even though Bobby V openly questioned whether the kid could do it. Bobby V may be obnoxious and arrogant, but he is a good baseball guy, and when he says a kid can't do it, Ben should have listened. That 2012 move with Bard was a forwarning of many future ill-conceived moves that he stuck to stubbornly and foolishly ruining 2014 and 2015. It was the first of his many very stupid moves. People forget that one.

 

After the way the 2011 team collapsed, I think the team would have rallied around Francona in 2012, knowing that they were at fault for the way they played down the stretch. I agree that it was probably time for Francona to go, but I believe that we would have seen a much different result in 2012 if he stayed.

 

It might have been a mistake to try to convert Bard to a starter, but that was not the root of his problems. There were signs at the end of the previous season that Bard was struggling. I'm not convinced that he would have done any better had he stayed in the BP.

[Dojji]

After the way the 2011 team collapsed, I think the team would have rallied around Francona in 2012, knowing that they were at fault for the way they played down the stretch. I agree that it was probably time for Francona to go, but I believe that we would have seen a much different result in 2012 if he stayed.

 

It might have been a mistake to try to convert Bard to a starter, but that was not the root of his problems. There were signs at the end of the previous season that Bard was struggling. I'm not convinced that he would have done any better had he stayed in the BP.

 

Agreed on Bard. His collapse did not start in 2012, but in the last months of 2011. People forget that with the bard-as-starter narrative. From 8/1 to 9/28 of 2011 Bard put up a 6.95 ERA and over the last two months of that year his season ERA shot up a point and a half. He was already falling apart before they ever converted him.

 

In fact I strongly suspect they already realized he was damanged goods and were just trying to find out if they could get something, anything, out of the kid before he completely splattered all over the landscape. Turns out, no, but if that's what they were trying to do, it was the right thing.

Edited August 23, 2015 by Dojji

[Kimmi]

I am not saying that the solution was to sign Ellsbury to a big contract. But he had to come up with a better replacement plan than he did ivercthe next 2 seasons. As for Ellsbury, we would be 2 years into his 7 year contract, and we have done terribly in redeploying that money, so as of today we would be no worse off if we gave Ellsbury the big contract. We will have to wait 5 more seasons to know definitively if it was a mistake or not.

 

As I said, Ben should have had a better plan B in case the kids struggled. That said, 2014 was also a year of great underperformance. You expect youngsters to have growing pains. You would think that at least one of them would be okay. JBJ, Bogaerts, and Middlebrooks all struggled pretty badly. On top of that, our veterans were hitting poorly too. JBJ's struggles and losing Ellsbury that season would not have looked so bad if the rest of the team had performed up to expectations.

 

I agree that we will not be able to fully assess Ellsbury's contract until the end of it.

[Dojji]

I am not saying that the solution was to sign Ellsbury to a big contract. But he had to come up with a better replacement plan than he did over the next 2 seasons. As for Ellsbury, we would be 2 years into his 7 year contract, and we have done terribly in redeploying that money, so as of today we would be no worse off if we gave Ellsbury the big contract. We will have to wait 5 more seasons to know definitively if it was a mistake or not.

 

As for Victorino and Buch being under contract, that is not an excuse. We had squeezed the last useful drop out of Victorino, and after 2023, he had trade value. He should have been traded. The problem is that he kept the guys that had nothing left. He gets paid to know what a player has left in the tank. Branch Rickey used to say that it was better to trade a player one season too soon than one season too late. Ben always wanted until guys were a total bust.

 

Yep except for the one time he confusingly, aggrivatingly, frustratingly, mystifyingly didn't. I don't think I need to elaborate here.

 

I think that's the big reason I had so little trouble with the news Cherington was moving on while I had so many problems with the way Theo left us. Because with Theo it was clear what the plan was. His actions were usually in keeping with a consistent overall strategy. I can't say the same about Cherington. His actions and the motivations behind them were never that clear or consistent.

Edited August 23, 2015 by Dojji

[a700hitter]

After the way the 2011 team collapsed, I think the team would have rallied around Francona in 2012, knowing that they were at fault for the way they played down the stretch. I agree that it was probably time for Francona to go, but I believe that we would have seen a much different result in 2012 if he stayed.

 

It might have been a mistake to try to convert Bard to a starter, but that was not the root of his problems. There were signs at the end of the previous season that Bard was struggling. I'm not convinced that he would have done any better had he stayed in the BP.

 

He just didn't have the makeup to start. Bobby V saw it. The kid would lose focus after going through the order one time. It wasn't going to work. Ben didn't listen, stuck stubbornly to it it until Bobby V left him on the mound to be humiliated against Toronto to the extent that it ranked as the worst start by a Red Sox pitcher since the 1910s. Only then was Ben left with no choice but to send him down. The Blue Jays were pissed that Bobby V left him in so long, because he almost killed Encarnacion twice in one inning.

[a700hitter]

Yep except for the one time he confusingly, aggrivatingly, frustratingly, mystifyingly didn't. I don't think I need to elaborate here.

 

.

Yep. Lol! I had that one in my post, but I edited it out. Lol! Yes, stubbornness and inconsistency were his trademarks. In 2014, he went with pitching and defense and let the offense flounder making no additions. In 2015, he rebuilt the offense and completely neglected the pitching, putting together what is our worst staff in decades.

[Bellhorn04]

I am not saying that the solution was to sign Ellsbury to a big contract. But he had to come up with a better replacement plan than he did over the next 2 seasons. As for Ellsbury, we would be 2 years into his 7 year contract, and we have done terribly in redeploying that money, so as of today we would be no worse off if we gave Ellsbury the big contract. We will have to wait 5 more seasons to know definitively if it was a mistake or not.

 

The loss of Ellsbury hasn't affected us much this year. As someone here said, our offense is fine - it's the pitching, stupid!

[a700hitter]

It's a new day in the Red Sox FO. Larry Luchinno and Ben are both gone. I have debated Ben enough. His record speaks for itself. Stripped of excuses, rumors, and conspiracy theories it was a record that was largely one of failure and terrible decisions with the exception of one magnificent season. I look forward to an exciting off season where we will have a lot to talk about.

 

For those of you who want to absolve Ben of the failures that occurred on his watch, but give him credit for things that happen after he leaves, go right ahead, but pardon me if I point out the silliness.

[a700hitter]

The loss of Ellsbury hasn't affected us much this year. As someone here said, our offense is fine - it's the pitching, stupid!

 

I didn't say that it affected us this season offensively. I said that we would be no worse off. We would have been much better defensively if he was in our lineup than that Former Shortstop, and that would have helped out pitching.

[Youk Of The Nation]

He just didn't have the makeup to start. Bobby V saw it. The kid would lose focus after going through the order one time. It wasn't going to work. Ben didn't listen, stuck stubbornly to it it until Bobby V left him on the mound to be humiliated against Toronto to the extent that it ranked as the worst start by a Red Sox pitcher since the 1910s. Only then was Ben left with no choice but to send him down. The Blue Jays were pissed that Bobby V left him in so long, because he almost killed Encarnacion twice in one inning.

 

Okay, so I have to ask out of curiosity. Which start was this? I checked the game logs for 2012 on Baseball Reference, and I can't find this game. There was only one game in all of 2012 where the Jays even scored a "humiliating" amount of runs against the Sox, and Bard didn't pitch in that game. Bard had a couple losses against Toronto in that season, but from what I can see on BR, none of them were even close to the worst start since the 1910s.

[Bellhorn04]

We would be better off defensively with anybody other than Hanley out there.

[a700hitter]

Okay, so I have to ask out of curiosity. Which start was this? I checked the game logs for 2012 on Baseball Reference, and I can't find this game. There was only one game in all of 2012 where the Jays even scored a "humiliating" amount of runs against the Sox, and Bard didn't pitch in that game. Bard had a couple losses against Toronto in that season, but from what I can see on BR, none of them were even close to the worst start since the 1910s.

 

It was his last start for the Red Sox before he was permanently removed from the rotation.

[a700hitter]

We would be better off defensively with anybody other than Hanley out there.

 

Ellsbury doesn't count as "anyone"?

[a700hitter]

Okay, so I have to ask out of curiosity. Which start was this? I checked the game logs for 2012 on Baseball Reference, and I can't find this game. There was only one game in all of 2012 where the Jays even scored a "humiliating" amount of runs against the Sox, and Bard didn't pitch in that game. Bard had a couple losses against Toronto in that season, but from what I can see on BR, none of them were even close to the worst start since the 1910s.

 

He walked 5 batters hit 2 others and gave up a hit in 1 1/3 innings. I don't know why it was the worst start by a Red Sox pitcher since the 1910s. I just remember the Red Sox announcers saying it. I assume some stat person researched it.

[Youk Of The Nation]

Yeah, I saw that one. 1.2IP, 5ER, 6BB. That's awful, but we've seen much worse since even 2000, let alone the 1910s. Hell, while I was looking for the game, I was reminded of the stats from another game against Toronto in 2012, when Lester gave up 9H, 11ER, and 5BB in 4 innings.

[a700hitter]

Okay, so I have to ask out of curiosity. Which start was this? I checked the game logs for 2012 on Baseball Reference, and I can't find this game. There was only one game in all of 2012 where the Jays even scored a "humiliating" amount of runs against the Sox, and Bard didn't pitch in that game. Bard had a couple losses against Toronto in that season, but from what I can see on BR, none of them were even close to the worst start since the 1910s.

Some articles about that start.

 

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1208090-daniel-bard-boston-red-sox-hurler-earns-al-worst-of-the-night-award

 

https://www.bostonglobe.com/sports/2015/04/30/red-sox-usually-willing-wait-with-struggling-starters/yd7TKboorsRblsRFgCgVQK/story.html

[Bellhorn04]

Ellsbury doesn't count as "anyone"?

 

$22 million a year is much too much for an average-hitting corner outfielder. If you say Cruz or Cespedes would have been much better than Hanley I can't argue.

[a700hitter]

Yeah, I saw that one. 1.2IP, 5ER, 6BB. That's awful, but we've seen much worse since even 2000, let alone the 1910s. Hell, while I was looking for the game, I was reminded of the stats from another game against Toronto in 2012, when Lester gave up 9H, 11ER, and 5BB in 4 innings.

 

I just remember hearing the report that it was the worst Red Sox start since the 1910s. I did remember the start and the tea and the batter he hit, so I trust my recollection on this. As compared to Lester's start keep in mind that Bard's start was just an 1 1/3 innings with 5 walks and 2 hit batters. So, it is worse than Lester's start.

[a700hitter]

$22 million a year is much too much for an average-hitting corner outfielder. If you say Cruz or Cespedes would have been much better than Hanley I can't argue.

 

I didn't say that we couldn't have done better or cheaper than Ellsbury. You are twisting the argument. Stop. What Ben did turned out no better than if he kept Ellsbury. He maintained a $200 million payroll and found his way to last place twice.

[Bellhorn04]

I didn't say that we couldn't have done better or cheaper than Ellsbury. You are twisting the argument. Stop. What Ben did turned out no better than if he kept Ellsbury. He maintained a $200 million payroll and found his way to last place twice.

 

How the hell am I twisting the argument? Not re-signing Ellsbury was the right move. It's not part of the reason 2014 and 2015 have sucked. That's all I've been saying all along.

[Dalas21000]

Stat is not indicative of anytrhing specific. I think 2nd or 3rd is fine for now - so his power can develop naturally.

 

I agree...I don't see the stats as being indicative of anything specific...I have faith(looking at things unseen) and see more consistency in him as a lead off hitter that can spark the team drastically in that position...I see a player that could consistently spark the team in that position...I think Betts needs more development to assume the position that he currently has in the lineup...Overall, I think Boegarts is more clutch and proven, including his experience