2016 Red Sox Hot Stove Discussion Thread

[cp176]

Thank you.

 

Ouch - painful here! I've been put in my place!

[User Name]

Give them a chance? Like the chance they had last year? Or the chance they had in the off-season to become more fit and to learn how to play 1st base?

 

Neither of these two guys have done or said anything this spring that has given fans encouragement. They are defiant in what they say or just smile and joke about any need to improve. This is easily seen any time either of them is on TV. They don't take their responsibility seriously. Or at best, not seriously enough.

 

This all ads up to the Boston fans "negativity"

 

I've seen this act before in this town. I seriously doubt that either of them ever succeeds in Boston.

 

You of all people should know how f***ing hard it is to drop 25 pounds. They asked Hanley to do it. He did it. Pablo did not. I just don't understand the hostility towards the guy when the Sox keep throwing him around like a rag doll.

[mvp 78]

Hanley isn't making anends by not taking fielding a new position seriously. Panda isn't making amends by coming to ST like a big tub of goo.

 

Considering how horrible they were last year, I'm not sure they even deserve a chance (even though I will be giving them one).

[Spudboy]

You of all people should know how f***ing hard it is to drop 25 pounds. They asked Hanley to do it. He did it. Pablo did not. I just don't understand the hostility towards the guy when the Sox keep throwing him around like a rag doll.

 

25 is not that much in my world. I can do that in 2-3 weeks of low carbing once I hit ketosis. I could drop 60 in 3-4 months if I was healthy. I really don't see why Pablo could not come into any spring with a new body so f*** him.

 

I have no problem with Hanley's weight at all. I just don't see him doing all the extra stuff that would be of benefit in learning his new position. That is why I can't see him working out at 1st.

[cp176]

Of course you were being accusatory. Accusation is implied whenever you make a statement like that. Otherwise, there's no need to make suck a statement. Also, you are very outspoken in your beliefs. There is nothing wrong with that, but don't kid yourself into believing otherwise.

 

I believe that advanced metrics play a very important role in baseball, probably more so than anyone else on this board. However, I have never even remotely suggested that scouting isn't very important as well. Neither has Ben, or Theo, or Bill James, or any other analytics types.

 

Sorry - I was not being accusatory. Honestly, i was just stating a need for balance. I think that the use of advanced metrics is very important just probably not as important as some. For the record, i am pretty sure that I have never even implied that I didn't think that all aspects of data compilation is very important. I thought it was a fairly harmless statement to make.

[User Name]

25 is not that much in my world. I can do that in 2-3 weeks of low carbing once I hit ketosis. I could drop 60 in 3-4 months if I was healthy. I really don't see why Pablo could not come into any spring with a new body so f*** him.

 

I have no problem with Hanley's weight at all. I just don't see him doing all the extra stuff that would be of benefit in learning his new position. That is why I can't see him working out at 1st.

 

But Hanley dropped 25 pounds of pure muscle. It's not that simple. Hanley's moving to a new IF position, when he's been an infielder all his life. It's not the extra work that's the problem, it's keeping his head in the game. The more distractions he has, the less likely he is to play well. The athleticism and IF experience are there, and he will hit. Health and focus are the issue. Panda's just a fat *******.

[Spudboy]

But Hanley dropped 25 pounds of pure muscle. It's not that simple. Hanley's moving to a new IF position, when he's been an infielder all his life. It's not the extra work that's the problem, it's keeping his head in the game. The more distractions he has, the less likely he is to play well. The athleticism and IF experience are there, and he will hit. Health and focus are the issue. Panda's just a fat *******.

 

The entire affair is regrettable. If they wanted Hanley they should have signed him to play 3rd.

 

I hope that he makes it here but I am doubtful. Have you seen all the video reports of his practices at first? Oye!

[jung]

I hate to say it but I don't think Hanley would make much of a 3rd baseman either. The only dif I think is that he would be less damaging potentially at 3rd. Apparently as I had predicted a few weeks ago, he has already let a ball go whizzing past his ear nearly killing three guys that were behind him somewhere and not expecting a ball to get past somebody at 1st with any glove at all. As usual, Hanley was not thinking and the ball was past him before he even knew what was going on. Nice Hanley...were you enjoying your nap?

 

I am already pretty much resigned to us seeing lots of Shaw and Holt. In fact I am more at this point looking forward to it and hoping it does not take Farrell long to get frustrated with the Hanley/Panda assuming their play warrants a change.

[Northern Star]

I really don't see why Pablo could not come into any spring with a new body so f*** him.

 

Because he gets paid the same whether he's fat or in shape, with no repercussions if its the former.

[Thunder]

I still think there's plenty of time for everything to work itself into place. ST games haven't even started yet. We can't determine if Pablo's weight will affect his defense until we see it in games. How are we to know if Hanley can really handle 1st base until live balls from live scenarios in games. Those drills only do so much. He'll work up confidence. I'll not saying he'll be great or anything, but he'll be good enough. In my view, if he hits like he did last April, his defense will be tolerable. Of course, there's Shaw in there too. If we can only wait a year and have Hanley play DH (or 3B, with Pablo at DH), with Shaw at 1st, then life would be good.

[Northern Star]

Never mind that Sandoval's defense is not exactly stellar to begin with. I don't think you should be expecting Gold Glove performance out there.

[Northern Star]

We still have three DHs on this team and for whoever said being a DH can be hard to keep your head in the game, it's more about where do you put a guy so the damage he costs you is minimal, when you can't trade him?

[Thunder]

Never mind that Sandoval's defense is not exactly stellar to begin with. I don't think you should be expecting Gold Glove performance out there.

 

No, but in SF he was known for laying out from time to time and then making a strong throw across the diamond. Didn't see much of that last year, but it's still a possibility.

[Northern Star]

No, but in SF he was known for laying out from time to time and then making a strong throw across the diamond. Didn't see much of that last year, but it's still a possibility.

 

That he's playing the hot corner with that body type defies logic anyway.

[mvp 78]

Never mind that Sandoval's defense is not exactly stellar to begin with. I don't think you should be expecting Gold Glove performance out there.

 

People would be happy with replacement level.

[mvp 78]

That he's playing the hot corner with that body type defies logic anyway.

 

Hot plate corner.

[Northern Star]

Hot plate corner.

 

well done.

[Thunder]

It would just be better if I went out there and played third, which is saying something because I haven't played third regularly in a while.

[jung]

But the DH thing and Hanley is not even an issue for 2016. My issue with Hanley even as a potential DH is that when and if he does finally slot into that role it will be because Ortiz is gone and we now actually need Hanley to be a hitter. Yet there is nothing to suggest that when and if that day comes, he will do what he needs to do to succeed at DH just as he has not for LF and appears to not for 1st.

 

For example, lets take Hanley's 2015 hitting. The "story" is that after Hanley re-injured his shoulder (as an aside, keep in mind that both Hanley's shoulders are issues now) that Hanley suffered from much reduced power. Everybody says the same thing and I witnessed this very phenomenon all last year. Hanley swung for the fences every AB....every single AB for the entire season making himself easy meat for pitchers even if he did have the power to reach the fences. Now we can't have it both ways. We do know how much a shoulder issue can rob a hitter of power. So, either Hanley's shoulders were not an issue once he came back from the DL last year and his decision to swing for the fences every AB at least carried an expectation that he had the power to jack the ball over the wall. He was just such easy meat for opposing pitchers that he simply could not get pitches that allowed him to homer.

 

OR

 

His shoulder was an issue and he simply did not care that he really did not have enough power to justify swinging for the fences every AB...that is what Hanley wanted to do and Hanley always does what Hanley wants to do.

 

IMO there is at least as much of a chance that in waiting for Hanley to adopt the DH role we are in fact waiting for ........NOTHING. Pablo is no kind of DH at all...he is simply not much of a 3rd baseman any longer.

Edited February 28, 2016 by jung

[mvp 78]

It would just be better if I went out there and played third, which is saying something because I haven't played third regularly in a while.

 

Nah, I'd take Panda.

[Thunder]

But the DH thing and Hanley is not even an issue for 2016. My issue with Hanley even as a potential DH is that when and if he does finally slot into that role it will be because Ortiz is gone and we know actually need Hanley to be a hitter. Yet there is nothing to suggest that when and if that day comes, he will do what he needs to do to succeed at DH just as he has not for LF and appears to not for 1st.

 

For example, lets take Hanley's 2015 hitting. The "story" is that after Hanley re-injured his shoulder (as an aside, keep in mind that both Hanley's shoulders are issues now) that Hanley suffered from much reduced power. Everybody says the same thing and I witnessed this very phenomenon all last year. Hanley swung for the fences every AB....every single AB for the entire season making himself easy meat for pitchers even if he did have the power to reach the fences. Now we can't have it both ways. We do know how much a shoulder issue can rob a hitter of power. So, either Hanley's shoulders were not an issue once he came back from the DL last year and his decision to swing for the fences every AB at least carried an expectation that he had the power to jack the ball over the wall. He was just such easy meat for opposing pitchers that he simply could not get pitches that allowed him to homer.

 

OR

 

His shoulder was an issue and he simply did not care that he really did not have enough power to justify swinging for the fences every AB...that is what Hanley wanted to do and Hanley always does what Hanley wants to do.

 

IMO there is at least as much of a chance that in waiting for Hanley to adopt the DH role we are in fact waiting for ........NOTHING. Pablo is no kind of DH at all...he is simply not much of a 3rd baseman any longer.

 

I agree with this 100%. His offense from here on out is a wild card. If he continues to swing for the fences all the time, either he will blow out his shoulders and be decimated to Lord knows what kind of role, or he will turn into a Manny type hitter (in his later years) who has a tendency to strikeout a bunch, and might occasionally get lucky and put a ride into one. Either way, it would be a liability. When we got him, we expected him to be one of the best hitters on this team. Just a major disappointment.

[Thunder]

Nah, I'd take Panda.

 

I have better range.

[mvp 78]

I have better range.

 

Not a chance. He has MLB reflexes. You may be able to beat him in a 50 yard dash, but that's about it.

[Spudboy]

People would be happy with replacement level.

 

And that's a shame given that he cost 19 mil a year. Ouch.

[mvp 78]

And that's a shame given that he cost 19 mil a year. Ouch.

 

I agree, Thunder's parents should be spending way less on him.

[jung]

Pablo has got very strong legs. That asset is not only what allows him to play 3rd marginally I agree but it really is the asset that has allowed him to play at all at this weight. Imagine if he had weak legs or even average leg strength supporting all that tonnage.

 

Often plays at 3rd can be a step and a dive. In Pablos case, he seems to be quick enough to take at least some sort of a first step and he can certainly dive though he lands like a plastic bag full of mashed potatoes. I have yet to see him at least as a Sox 3rd baseman, able to rise quickly and set up to make a throw to 1st. Heck there have been times when he can't set up to throw having never let his feet! Pedey pretty much runs this infield. XB is best going to his right and is in fact outstanding going to his right while not quite at his best around 2nd base. If Pablo is to play much 3rd this year, I would have XB shading toward 3rd every opportunity he can which would play to XB's strength and cover some for Pablo. The problem with doing it this way is that now Pedroia has Hanley over at 1st and I don't see Hanley much going in the hole to make plays.

 

This is the sort of rock and hard place that does not make itself evident on the surface and that nobody making these "projections" in the media takes into account. But they become real and practical issues when you get around to seeing what an infield with significant weaknesses at both corners actually looks like.

[Northern Star]

Not a chance. He has MLB reflexes. You may be able to beat him in a 50 yard dash, but that's about it.

 

I know I am guilty of this hyperbole myself sometimes, but you're absolutely right of course.

[Northern Star]

I agree, Thunder's parents should be spending way less on him.

 

Hey, have you SEEN the cost of college tuition nowadays?

[Hitch]

Dude, nobody uses "I" more than you do on this site. Everyone is aware of how you feel about sabermetrics, along with every other topic brought up.

Kimmi has said on more than one occasion that teams need to use a combination of scout and stats, to run a successful organization.

There's no "possibly misunderstood", you're either not paying attention or have reading comprehension issues.

 

I find it a little creepy how often you jump to Kimmi's defence. It seems like every time I log on for a read, there you are jumping in to defend her despite not being involved in the conversation yourself. What is that about? She's an intelligent person who can more than look after herself. Why do you feel the need to do it so often? Just curious. It reads like somebody with a crush protecting his love ha! :-)

 

 

As an aside, I really don't like Pablo or Hanley for different reasons. With Pablo, you're getting paid that much money and getting to live your dream and you can't even be bothered to keep in shape. He's also very prickly when asked any half-way probing questions. He's got some issues that really need looking at or he's going to blow his career. Hanley annoys me with the way he always seems to be half-assing everything. Always strolling around. He never looks like he is putting his full focus and energy into anything. Maybe it's just his languid style that gives off an un-fair perception, but I don't think so.

 

Hanley can hit, but the Sox would still be far better off if they were able to rid themselves of both.

[jung]

"As an aside, I really don't like Pablo or Hanley for different reasons. With Pablo, you're getting paid that much money and getting to live your dream and you can't even be bothered to keep in shape. He's also very prickly when asked any half-way probing questions. He's got some issues that really need looking at or he's going to blow his career. Hanley annoys me with the way he always seems to be half-assing everything. Always strolling around. He never looks like he is putting his full focus and energy into anything. Maybe it's just his languid style that gives off an un-fair perception, but I don't think so. "

 

These are interesting observations. I have gotten close to your point on Pablo myself. There is something strange going on there, maybe even dangerous but at least strange.

 

With Hanley I don't think it is unfair at all to look at his attitude as odd even for a contemporary professional athlete. Manny being Manny does not get into the same stratosphere of as odd as Hanley with his pendulum that swings all the way from goofy, half-assed nonsense that just is so disrespectful of the game and so many of its players and the way he immediately swings all the way from there to pouting, shutting it down and off for one of his in season vacations. Yet the players love Hanley mainly because the players play for the PA more than they play for the teams who's laundry they wear and Hanley does advance the cause of lots of pay for little play about as much as it can be advanced.

 

These aberrations are aberrations for the bulk of mankind but are unfortunately common in contemporary pro sports. It seems to take different forms depending on the sport. Pro football players seem to have a slightly different set of oddities going on than pro baseball players with pro basketball players slanted off a bit from the first two. But so many of all three are just slanted off from even what you would expect in the behavior of people that have been pampered to an extreme for a lifetime that it really calls into question the rational for giving these people all these accolades and all this money.

 

What are we really doing here? Is this as much about us as about them in some sense? It seems that the farther away they have gotten from real people the more aberrations make their way to the surface. It has gotten to the point that the aberrations have a significant impact on their ability to perform and thus make you question why teams just shove all this money across the table. It seems like enabling more than anything else. This probably has hit home for me more because of Hanley/Panda. These two deals by themselves represent such bad decision making. Neither deal makes a hill of beans of sense no matter how you cut them if you look at them in human terms, in terms beyond some combination of statistical analysis and traditional scouting. If you look at both in human terms you would stop dead in your tracks and question why you should consider these deals for another minute.

 

I actually think THIS is what John Henry was driving at in his comments about over dependence on statistical analysis in deciding who should get all this money and he just did not have a good way to truly broach the topic the way he wanted to broach it. How can he as the principle owner of a sports enterprise? But I think he left so many confused about where he was going with that because we were all groping for a Front Office kind of context in the traditional sense and we just did not get it. But I really think what he means is that his organization has got to look at these players as people as well as players. That goes beyond the mix of scouting and statistical analysis and "gee will player X mate up well with players Y and Z." I think his comments suggest that JH is questioning why we are not taking a harder look at these players as people and simply saying "what the f*** are we doing! Are we doing our team any good, our community any good or even the player any good by tossing millions of dollars at somebody that is such an incomplete person that he may not even be able to perform as a complete player any longer."

 

I also think Henry decided to at least try to broach the topic because he either knew he was lying about Pablo's Body Fat % or he knew that somebody in his organization had cooked the numbers, had handed him cooked numbers to announce which makes that a half truth at best which is a half lie which is .....a lie. So there he was, a wealthy man financially, fairly satisfied I guess with his life, tossed to the wolves so to speak to protect this guy that is an incomplete. I really think that is why we got both the statement about Pablo's Body Fat % and about over dependence on statistical analysis at the same time in the very same announcement. Henry may not have even intended to broach the topic before he found the words actually coming to his lips. IMO Henry found himself at odds with the absurdity of having to stand there and tell such a laughably transparent lie to protect this guy that his organization should really have questioned using a more human standard....something that was totally ignored in both the Hanley and the Pablo signings. Two mistakes that were now costing him close to $40m per year and from which he has no escape.

Edited February 28, 2016 by jung