Red Sox Bullpen

[a700hitter]

Pal, Uehara had a season for the ages. He had one of the best seasons in the history of baseball for a closer. Since then, he has been injured, has gotten older and has lost his splitter. Expecting a 2013 return for him is unlikely. Breslow also pitched out of his damn mind in 2013 with a 1.81ERA over 59.1IP. He has dealt with some shoulder issues and isn't the same player. Miller gave you 30IP, but his K/9IP and ERA were dazzling. He was a bigger cog last year for sure. Losing him doesn't help. Tazawa has been the same guy for the most part. Your 2013 team had 202IP out of Koji, Taz, and Breslow with an aggregate ERA near 2. If that happens again, you can have my sig for a month. Also, you added to your depth last yr with Badenhop and Mujica. Badenhop was actually really good for you guys and he is gone. Mujica is hit or miss. In terms of 2013 to now, Breslow and Uehara aren't the same guys and you effectively dealt Miller for Mujica. Also, sk's inference is absolutely spot on. You got a lot of innings out of Lester, Lackey, Dempster, Doubront and the combo of Buch and Peavy. You're staring at a bigger workload for a reduced pen. Usually that isn't a good recipe for success

 

Expecting another 2813 season from Koji would be unreasonable if he was only 30. His 2013 was absolute perfection. I'll be happy to see that type of season from a Red Sox reliever just one more time in my life.

[User Name]

Pal, Uehara had a season for the ages. He had one of the best seasons in the history of baseball for a closer. Since then, he has been injured, has gotten older and has lost his splitter. Expecting a 2013 return for him is unlikely. Breslow also pitched out of his damn mind in 2013 with a 1.81ERA over 59.1IP. He has dealt with some shoulder issues and isn't the same player. Miller gave you 30IP, but his K/9IP and ERA were dazzling. He was a bigger cog last year for sure. Losing him doesn't help. Tazawa has been the same guy for the most part. Your 2013 team had 202IP out of Koji, Taz, and Breslow with an aggregate ERA near 2. If that happens again, you can have my sig for a month. Also, you added to your depth last yr with Badenhop and Mujica. Badenhop was actually really good for you guys and he is gone. Mujica is hit or miss. In terms of 2013 to now, Breslow and Uehara aren't the same guys and you effectively dealt Miller for Mujica. Also, sk's inference is absolutely spot on. You got a lot of innings out of Lester, Lackey, Dempster, Doubront and the combo of Buch and Peavy. You're staring at a bigger workload for a reduced pen. Usually that isn't a good recipe for success

 

Yet you're all roses about your assessment of the Yankee rotation. Give me a break.

[Palodios]

Pal, Uehara had a season for the ages. He had one of the best seasons in the history of baseball for a closer. Since then, he has been injured, has gotten older and has lost his splitter. Expecting a 2013 return for him is unlikely. Breslow also pitched out of his damn mind in 2013 with a 1.81ERA over 59.1IP. He has dealt with some shoulder issues and isn't the same player. Miller gave you 30IP, but his K/9IP and ERA were dazzling. He was a bigger cog last year for sure. Losing him doesn't help. Tazawa has been the same guy for the most part. Your 2013 team had 202IP out of Koji, Taz, and Breslow with an aggregate ERA near 2. If that happens again, you can have my sig for a month. Also, you added to your depth last yr with Badenhop and Mujica. Badenhop was actually really good for you guys and he is gone. Mujica is hit or miss. In terms of 2013 to now, Breslow and Uehara aren't the same guys and you effectively dealt Miller for Mujica. Also, sk's inference is absolutely spot on. You got a lot of innings out of Lester, Lackey, Dempster, Doubront and the combo of Buch and Peavy. You're staring at a bigger workload for a reduced pen. Usually that isn't a good recipe for success

 

 

You are arguing that the Red Sox's 2015 bullpen cannot be as good as the 2014 and 2013 bullpens combined. The Red Sox don't need to field 7 relievers, not 14. Koji will regress, and too many innings will be a problem, but there is still a lot of talent in that bullpen.

 

Koji/Taz/Varvaro have always been excellent. Tommy Layne's career shows him to be a very good LOOGY. We need a few of Breslow/Ogando/Mujica/Workman/Ross to pitch to their capabilities, but they've all put up excellent numbers as recently as 2013.

[Kimmi]

Pal, Uehara had a season for the ages. He had one of the best seasons in the history of baseball for a closer. Since then, he has been injured, has gotten older and has lost his splitter. Expecting a 2013 return for him is unlikely. Breslow also pitched out of his damn mind in 2013 with a 1.81ERA over 59.1IP. He has dealt with some shoulder issues and isn't the same player. Miller gave you 30IP, but his K/9IP and ERA were dazzling. He was a bigger cog last year for sure. Losing him doesn't help. Tazawa has been the same guy for the most part. Your 2013 team had 202IP out of Koji, Taz, and Breslow with an aggregate ERA near 2. If that happens again, you can have my sig for a month. Also, you added to your depth last yr with Badenhop and Mujica. Badenhop was actually really good for you guys and he is gone. Mujica is hit or miss. In terms of 2013 to now, Breslow and Uehara aren't the same guys and you effectively dealt Miller for Mujica. Also, sk's inference is absolutely spot on. You got a lot of innings out of Lester, Lackey, Dempster, Doubront and the combo of Buch and Peavy. You're staring at a bigger workload for a reduced pen. Usually that isn't a good recipe for success

 

 

We don't need Koji to be as good as he was in 2013. Koji can still be a very good and effective closer without reaching his 2013 level. Mujica was very impressive after the All Star break last year. Taz should be solid and consistent. Between Breslow, Ogando, Layne, Varvaro, Barnes, Workman, Escobar, Hembree, Spruill, and Ross, we should be able to round out a decent pen. There may even be a diamond in the rough amongst those guys. If not, the Sox certainly have the means to trade for a reliever before the deadline.

 

As far as starting at a bigger workload for the pen, the Sox starting staff in 2013 averaged 6.1 innings per start. For some reference, league average that year was 5.9 innings per start. Our projected starting 5 averaged the following # of innings per start last year:

 

Buchholz - 6.1 (6.8 in 2013, so he could conceivably do better than 6.1)

Porcello - 6.5

Miley - 6.1

Kelly - 5.7

Masterson - 5.0 (6.5 in 2013, so he should conceivably do much better than 5.0 if healthy)

 

Provided the rotation stays fairly healthy, I'm not seeing the bigger workload.

[Kimmi]

Yet you're all roses about your assessment of the Yankee rotation. Give me a break.

 

 

The Yankees must be doing well in spring training games.

[jacksonianmarch]

Yet you're all roses about your assessment of the Yankee rotation. Give me a break.

 

UN, I am all "roses" about our potential. I am realistic about our injury chances. If the rotation stays healthy, it will be one of the best in the AL and will propel us into the playoffs. I say the chances of that happening are less than 50%

[User Name]

UN, I am all "roses" about our potential. I am realistic about our injury chances. If the rotation stays healthy, it will be one of the best in the AL and will propel us into the playoffs. I say the chances of that happening are less than 50%

 

You're not realisitc about it at all. While you are realistic about the injury chances, your assessment about the actual on-field potential performance for some of these guys is homerism at its highest level. On the flip side, you're discounting the ability of any Red Sox pitcher to be anything other than its worse possible iteration. Stop.

[jacksonianmarch]

Pineda and Tanaka were awesome in the time they were on the mound in 2014. Sabathia is sitting low 90s again and topping out at 94. Eovaldi has been untouchable. How am I skewing their performances and stuff in ST thus far? The top 4 have shown sheer excellence with top line stuff. And I am discounting the sox staff because none of the bounce back guys have looked good this offseason

[Bellhorn04]

Pineda and Tanaka were awesome in the time they were on the mound in 2014. Sabathia is sitting low 90s again and topping out at 94. Eovaldi has been untouchable. How am I skewing their performances and stuff in ST thus far? The top 4 have shown sheer excellence with top line stuff. And I am discounting the sox staff because none of the bounce back guys have looked good this offseason

 

Well, you did say "Buchholz is trying to show everyone he can be an ace, and he's showing the opposite", although he has a 1.80 ERA, a 1.1 WHIP and a 6-1 K/BB.

[User Name]

Well, you did say "Buchholz is trying to show everyone he can be an ace, and he's showing the opposite", although he has a 1.80 ERA, a 1.1 WHIP and a 6-1 K/BB.

 

Case in point.

[cp176]

Well, you did say "Buchholz is trying to show everyone he can be an ace, and he's showing the opposite", although he has a 1.80 ERA, a 1.1 WHIP and a 6-1 K/BB.

 

Is this a case of you using those spring training stats to prove a point Bellhorn? I want you to be right but I think I'll hold off judgement for now. I do think that he is having a productive spring though. I know that Jacko is a homer not unlike us. I don't know much about the Yankees these days. I do know that I don't dislike their team like I did once upon a time. If Buchholtz finds a couple of MPH's and stays healthy he certainly still has the potential to get it done.

[Bellhorn04]

Is this a case of you using those spring training stats to prove a point Bellhorn?

 

The point was strictly for Jacko, who is raving about Yankee pitching and heaping abuse on Red Sox pitching based on the tiny spring samples.

[sk7326]

The bigger picture with the rotation - barring a trade is probably more in the ballpark of:

 

Guys who are here now: Porcello, Miley, Buchholz, Masterson, Kelly

Guys who could take some spot turns: Escobar, Barnes, Wright, Johnson

Guys who could be here later in the year for real: Owens, Rodriguez

 

Frankly, even if Owens or Rodriguez might be better than Kelly or Masterson this year, the sort of innings limits that younger guys have these days would preclude them from making a strong big league contribution until June at the earliest anyway.

 

IMO the odds are very low (barring health) that the Red Sox will be sitting here in June or July legitimately out of it to the point that they'd absolutely won't be buying starting pitching.

[cp176]

The point was strictly for Jacko, who is raving about Yankee pitching and heaping abuse on Red Sox pitching based on the tiny spring samples.

 

ok - no one should be heaping anything on those 4 guys after Porcello for sure. Come on - Buchholz said it himself they are all aces.

[Northern Star]

At times I really think this board is like the three fans in the stands in Major League.

[Ogden]

Spring training stats don't matter much since he is going to Pawtucket, but Owens has been poor.

[seabeachfred]

Spring training stats don't matter much since he is going to Pawtucket, but Owens has been poor.

 

I'm disappointed in Owens---he has not looked good at all. Either he just isn't ready, or his pitching with nerves on edge, or he just isn't the pitcher we hope he will be. I hope it is one or two. If it's three, then once again we may come up empty with another pitching prospect. We need to start developing winning pitchers for our club. I keep wondering what kind of real coaching we have down in the minors. We should have struck it rich with someone since Lester---and that was a long time ago.

[sk7326]

I'm disappointed in Owens---he has not looked good at all. Either he just isn't ready, or his pitching with nerves on edge, or he just isn't the pitcher we hope he will be. I hope it is one or two. If it's three, then once again we may come up empty with another pitching prospect. We need to start developing winning pitchers for our club. I keep wondering what kind of real coaching we have down in the minors. We should have struck it rich with someone since Lester---and that was a long time ago.

 

Owens has been terrible. Clearly he is not the pitcher the scouts and the industry think he is. After when you've lost the spring, you've lost the career.

[User Name]

Owens has been terrible. Clearly he is not the pitcher the scouts and the industry think he is. After when you've lost the spring, you've lost the career.

 

DFA Him.

 

Fred is downright ridiculous with this crap.

 

Madison Bumgarner is 0-3 with an ERA over 5. Obviously crappy coaching from the Giants.

[Palodios]

We should have struck it rich with someone since Lester---and that was a long time ago.

 

Almost all ace-type pitchers get drafted in the first 15 picks of the draft. There has been a failure to develop much pitching depth, but expecting an ace out of the backend of the draft is unreasonable. If they don't get anything out of Trey Ball, then I'd agree with you.

 

The only pitching prospects drafted by the Red Sox in the first round lately have been: Casey Kelly, Bryan Price, Haggadone, Ranaudo, Owens, Brian Johnson. None of those guys were drafted with ace ceilings,

[cp176]

That is imporrtant stuff to remember. Most people who have seen him pitch see him as being a solid contributor some day. Obviously he needs some time to develop.

[sk7326]

Almost all ace-type pitchers get drafted in the first 15 picks of the draft. There has been a failure to develop much pitching depth, but expecting an ace out of the backend of the draft is unreasonable. If they don't get anything out of Trey Ball, then I'd agree with you.

 

The only pitching prospects drafted by the Red Sox in the first round lately have been: Casey Kelly, Bryan Price, Haggadone, Ranaudo, Owens, Brian Johnson. None of those guys were drafted with ace ceilings,

 

There are only 10 aces as we think of them in the league now (and possibly less, I'm just using a number). 10 out 150 or so everyday starting pitchers. The reason the Red Sox have not developed an ace in a while is the same reason the Yankees haven't. Because it's hard. And you are right, the draft gobbles these guys up quickly. Occasionally you get a Corey Kluber who was drafted in the 4th round and then developed a knockout pitch coming up ... but that is not a frequent occurance.

 

I have been fanatical in my devotion to not following the spring aside from injuries (and whatever directly influences my fantasy draft). It's just too easy to get swept away, and we know the Red Sox screwed up their outfield for a solid month last season because they got swept away Grady Sizemore's entrails.

 

Another piece of assurance for Fred I think (if he needs it) is that given the realities of innings limits and not wanting to box themselves in like the Nats did with Strasburg in 2012, Owens' big league contribution this year (if any, and this applies to Rodriguez) wasn't going to be for another 2-3 months AT THE EARLIEST. If there is anything to glean from the kids this spring from what I've heard - it's that Rodriguez has a slightly better chance to be a 2015 contributor than was anticipated. (and I still take that with a giant block of salt)

[mvp 78]

At times I really think this board is like the three fans in the stands in Major League.

 

Too high?

[Palodios]

The guy to watch is Brian Johnson. He was a college draftee so he's a bit more advanced at 24. He has 3 decent pitches and a fringe slider. Good 2014 stats, good spring training stats.

 

Certainly not an ace, but I wouldn't be surprised to see him be a more than respectable replacement for Kelly or Masterson in the backend of the rotation.

[seabeachfred]

DFA Him.

 

Fred is downright ridiculous with this crap.

 

Madison Bumgarner is 0-3 with an ERA over 5. Obviously crappy coaching from the Giants.

 

Please User, read my whole damn post before you start jumping to conclusions. I gave THREE possibilities why Owens has looked so terrible this Spring and to compare him with Bamgarner is the height of lunacy. Madison is a proven winner, an ace in every sense of the word and a two time ace of a WS Title team. That description does not fit Owens at all. Maybe he will emerge, and maybe he will be like so many other pitchers we've "developed" and never saw much of success. You can probably name at least a half-dozen by yourself but I'll give you two to help out......Weiland, Doubrant, Hagadone, Barnes. Ooops I went too far. I'm rooting for Owens because we need him and he's a Southern Californian as I am, but I would like to see at least a couple of steady performances from him before we may be forced to bring him up in an emergency.

[seabeachfred]

That is imporrtant stuff to remember. Most people who have seen him pitch see him as being a solid contributor some day. Obviously he needs some time to develop.

 

That's one of the possibilities I laid out CP but I think SK might have misinterpreted it. I have high hopes for Owens and, yes, we must not rush him as both you and SK say. That was mostly what I was saying. That third part I suggested was one I hoped to hell that would never be the case.

[seabeachfred]

There are only 10 aces as we think of them in the league now (and possibly less, I'm just using a number). 10 out 150 or so everyday starting pitchers. The reason the Red Sox have not developed an ace in a while is the same reason the Yankees haven't. Because it's hard. And you are right, the draft gobbles these guys up quickly. Occasionally you get a Corey Kluber who was drafted in the 4th round and then developed a knockout pitch coming up ... but that is not a frequent occurance.

 

I have been fanatical in my devotion to not following the spring aside from injuries (and whatever directly influences my fantasy draft). It's just too easy to get swept away, and we know the Red Sox screwed up their outfield for a solid month last season because they got swept away Grady Sizemore's entrails.

 

Another piece of assurance for Fred I think (if he needs it) is that given the realities of innings limits and not wanting to box themselves in like the Nats did with Strasburg in 2012, Owens' big league contribution this year (if any, and this applies to Rodriguez) wasn't going to be for another 2-3 months AT THE EARLIEST. If there is anything to glean from the kids this spring from what I've heard - it's that Rodriguez has a slightly better chance to be a 2015 contributor than was anticipated. (and I still take that with a giant block of salt)

 

I find no fault in that SK and totally agree with you on that. We must not get boxed in with Owens. He comes up when he is ready and not a moment sooner. My original point which some of you misinterpreted was that I was washing him off. Nothing could be farther from the truth but I was being honest in saying I was hoping we would be having a better ST than he has.

[cp176]

I find no fault in that SK and totally agree with you on that. We must not get boxed in with Owens. He comes up when he is ready and not a moment sooner. My original point which some of you misinterpreted was that I was washing him off. Nothing could be farther from the truth but I was being honest in saying I was hoping we would be having a better ST than he has.

 

I have to tell you Fred, I think that people have expectations that Owens won't get to for a while. I would not be a bit surprised to see Rodriguez get to the head of the class a little sooner than expected. Also I think that Johnson has shown that he could make a contribution as well. Hopefully none of them will be needed for some time.

[Palodios]

Owens had a rough spring training, but he did manage a 2.40 ERA, 1.10 WHIP, 10.1 K/9 in AA last year at age 21.

 

In comparison, Weiland had a 4.42 ERA at AA at age 24.

Doubront had a 3.35 ERA, 1.41 WHIP, 8.2 K/9 in AA at age 22.

Bowden had a 4.28 ERA, 1.43 WHIP, 7.6 k/9 in AA at age 20.

 

Owens is the only guy who has been a no-hitter threat every minor league start. It will take him time, but he'll get here.

[sk7326]

I have to tell you Fred, I think that people have expectations that Owens won't get to for a while. I would not be a bit surprised to see Rodriguez get to the head of the class a little sooner than expected. Also I think that Johnson has shown that he could make a contribution as well. Hopefully none of them will be needed for some time.

 

Realistically, Escobar, Barnes, Wright and Johnson are probably your candidates for "first man up" if the rotation needs to be plugged. Owens or Rodriguez might come - but they won't be part of a taxi squad. If they are recalled, it is probably with intention of them staying.