Is the actual rotation the worst in the last 10 Y?

[SoxHop]

Sorry. He has been a disappointment so far.

 

 

Who hasn't though. Seriously. They must have come down with some kind of sickness in May.

 

I hear you, he has been tough to watch flailing away at pitches over his head. And I can't get that image of him bobbling the ball, twice, then trying to throw the runner out when the runner was on first, and launching it past Napoli.

 

I'm looking at his yearly stats, and his defense rating is so down from what his normal number are, they stand out like a sore thumb.

 

I think there are players that can't cut it in Boston, playing in Beantown is a beast. But a guy who ups the ante in the playoffs would seem to be a guy that would succeed in Boston's year long playoff mentality.

 

Yea, 17 mil is quite a bit. I wish I was a stat person. I really want to rate 3rd baseman against him and their salaries. But to me he has been showing game, and comes with a background of showing game, and I think will up his game.

 

As always, he could be moved. But I see him having a position at least. Again, what is Hanley's position other than a 22 mil a year dh?

 

I'm ok with Sandoval at third for the time being......

[SoxHop]

WTF? Masterson up.

 

That guy looked like the grim reaper was standing over his shoulder the last time he left the game just before going to AAA.

 

I'd be shocked if he is worth anything. Don't we only have him for this year anyway......... what are we trying to prove??????

[Elktonnick]

They're still not picking up much of the rest of the contract that comes along after this year's playoffs.

Who knows we are just speculating. However, I am suggesting that money wouldn't be that big an issue. It would be the type and quality of player the Sox would hope get in return if they were to trade Sandoval. Any playoff contender wishing Sandoval is more likely to balk at the player they would have to give up than the money IMHO. In any case, a trade involving Sandoval is very unlikely. It just idle speculation on our part because this team is so disappointing.

[SoxHop]

Who knows we are just speculating. However, I am suggesting that money wouldn't be that big an issue. It would be the type and quality of player the Sox would hope get in return if they were to trade Sandoval. Any playoff contender wishing Sandoval is more likely to balk at the player they would have to give up than the money IMHO. In any case, a trade involving Sandoval is very unlikely. It just idle speculation on our part because this team is so disappointing.

 

aHAHAah.... This whole post could be a tag line for this entire forum...... Who knows, we are just speculating..........

 

We can say trade this person, or keep this person. But we never will know who is being offered for who or what someone will take for who........

 

Someone should make a documentary from filming a GM all year with every phone call taped. Then maybe we would know what the heck really happened.

 

If I could get something better for Sandoval I would try. Like you said Elk.... I don't think we could get much of a return. He may not be worth 17 mil a year........ but to me there are other positions that need consideration before 3rd.......

[sk7326]

Any trade partner who knows what they are doing would squeeze the Sox to take a huge part of the remaining contract. Probably not even worth it.

 

Then you don't trade him. The Giants might be more amenable since they know him. Sandoval signing was one I didn't love but I did understand it - 3B was a dumpster fire for us, and he was an improvement, and since he was the youngest premium free agent, Sox were not buying much of his decline. Defense got off to a slow start and offensively he has been a bit streaky

[iortiz]

Well, the first thing that you have to do when you fail is recognize where the problem is in order to fix it, otherwise you will fail over and over again. The problem in recent years has been the FO. The plan has failed. The execution has failed. This team is a mess. It has too many flaws and they have taken tons of bad decisions already.

 

First off, rebuild the FO, it is pretty clear that these guys have no idea what they are doing. Then invest in good pitching, at least two. Enough is enough. Try to get rid of Porcello and Miley. Say goodbye to Buch. Send Kelly to the BP. Regarding the offense, Papi, Napoli and Vic are goners. Try to get rid of Panda and Castillo. Try to trade Pedroia and see if you can get something valuable.

 

Rebuild this already.

[Palodios]

Try to get rid of Miley.

 

Miley is a cheap lefty who will provide 180-200 innings from the back of the rotation. His numbers are skewed by a bad April (8.82 ERA) but he has been fine since. He's not an ace, but he's not exactly a problem either.

 

Let's say you do get rid of Buch, Porcello, Miley, Kelly, Masterson. Replacing 4 starters is extremely difficult in a single offseason. Let's say you have 50 million to spend... How do you pull in 4 reliable starters better than Miley with that kind of money?

[iortiz]

Miley is a cheap lefty who will provide 180-200 innings from the back of the rotation. His numbers are skewed by a bad April (8.82 ERA) but he has been fine since. He's not an ace, but he's not exactly a problem either.

 

Let's say you do get rid of Buch, Porcello, Miley, Kelly, Masterson. Replacing 4 starters is extremely difficult in a single offseason. Let's say you have 50 million to spend... How do you pull in 4 reliable starters better than Miley with that kind of money?

 

If you want to keep Miley as a No. 4-5, fine. We need a No. 1 (25M) No. 2 (20 M) and a No 3. (15 M). You are going to need something around 60 M/Y. Also, you have E Rod. I think it is affordable.

[iortiz]

I would assemble a rotation (1-3) with guys who have proved consistency and durability in the AL like Lester (No1.) Shields (No2.) Buehrle (No3.) and ERod. (No4). The depth would be from the farm.

[jacksonianmarch]

Kershaw's deal set a new precedent for top notch aces. I think Price is getting $30mil a year

[Spudboy]

Kershaw's deal set a new precedent for top notch aces. I think Price is getting $30mil a year

 

I think so too, even with being over the dreaded 30 year old plateau.

[Bellhorn04]

Kershaw's deal set a new precedent for top notch aces. I think Price is getting $30mil a year

 

Kershaw's deal isn't really the benchmark because he was much younger.

 

Scherzer's deal is more like the benchmark for Price, although the structure of Scherzer's deal makes it a little more confusing to calculate.

 

Lester's deal can be used as a benchmark, bumped up by around 10% for Price's better numbers.

 

I'd guess 6 years at 28 million.

[a700hitter]

Kershaw's deal isn't really the benchmark because he was much younger.

 

Scherzer's deal is more like the benchmark for Price, although the structure of Scherzer's deal makes it a little more confusing to calculate.

 

Lester's deal can be used as a benchmark, bumped up by around 10% for Price's better numbers.

 

I'd guess 6 years at 28 million.

The organization is going to have to get over its aversion and fear of the back end of these big pitcher contracts. Unless they can fleece some team in a trade like the Pedro trade years ago, they will need to acquire some one for big $. We don't have enough top quality arms in the organization at this point. It is not like they have been so shrewd with their shorter term contracts. Flushing $82 million down the toilet on Porcello is not chump change. It doesn't fall into the "low risk high reward" category. We would have been much better off signing Shields or just about any of the other FA pitchers available last off season.

[a700hitter]

Well, the first thing that you have to do when you fail is recognize where the problem is in order to fix it, otherwise you will fail over and over again. The problem in recent years has been the FO. The plan has failed. The execution has failed. This team is a mess. It has too many flaws and they have taken tons of bad decisions already.

 

First off, rebuild the FO, it is pretty clear that these guys have no idea what they are doing. Then invest in good pitching, at least two. Enough is enough. Try to get rid of Porcello and Miley. Say goodbye to Buch. Send Kelly to the BP. Regarding the offense, Papi, Napoli and Vic are goners. Try to get rid of Panda and Castillo. Try to trade Pedroia and see if you can get something valuable.

 

Rebuild this already.

Until recently, I would have waited until the offseason to clean house in the FO. I have changed my mind. This organization is in such disarray that they should start the process immediately. Clean house of the current collection of clueless bastards and start assembling a new team immediately so that they can start familiarizing themselves with the organization and its needs before the season ends. Hopefully, this would allow them to develop a good strategy that could be put in place as soon as the offseason starts. It would allow them to hit the ground running. There is no reason to wait. Giving Cherrington the job was a terrible mistake. He is the common denominator to the 3 last place teams. We can no longer blame Theo's spending or Bobby V or Larry L. Ben is the reason. He has to go. Edited July 23, 2015 by a700hitter

[a700hitter]

This should be the thread of the year. It was maligned as a trolling effort and a lot of posters went pretty hard at iortiz for starting the thread, but now it is obvious that this was an issue that merited serious discussion from day 1. Iortiz had the foresight to see what was coming. His attackers were the trolls.

[Bellhorn04]

The only problem with the thread is that iortiz overlooked the fact that the 2012 rotation was the worst in franchise history.

[Elktonnick]

The only problem with the thread is that iortiz overlooked the fact that the 2012 rotation was the worst in franchise history.

 

Wait! This season isn't over yet since . We haven't seen how low they can go. This could yet prove to be the worst Red Sox team since WW2.

[a700hitter]

The only problem with the thread is that iortiz overlooked the fact that the 2012 rotation was the worst in franchise history.

you can be a funny wise-ass. And you manage to do it in a nice way. That's 2 compliments from me in 2 days. You should probably disavow me like I am Trump, because people that I like are targets here for the dark satanic forces. Lol!

[iortiz]

This should be the thread of the year. It was maligned as a trolling effort and a lot of posters went pretty hard at iortiz for starting the thread, but now it is obvious that this was an issue that merited serious discussion from day 1. Iortiz had the foresight to see what was coming. His attackers were the trolls.

 

Well, if not the worst, it is one of the worst.

 

Thank you my friend. As you said, I saw a very horrible rotation on paper, to the point that it made me think that it could turn into the worst of this franchise.

[mvp 78]

ERod has come to the point in the season where they are starting to limit his innings. Blech.

 

Wasn't Buch supposed to be back soon Dr Jacko?

[iortiz]

Well some think that you can build a rotation around ERod.

 

I like him but he is still a rookie who needs to learn a lot more. Hopefully he has a bright future.

[sk7326]

Well some think that you can build a rotation around ERod.

 

I like him but he is still a rookie who needs to learn a lot more. Hopefully he has a bright future.

 

Oh heavens no - but he has the most ceiling on the staff, and young enough that legitimate improvement is expected. You don't pencil him as a #1, but it's okay to expect to see better from him next season. I absolutely have him in the rotation plan next season. Owens you can argue more, but to me he has shown quite a bit both in tools and mentality. Just having a 2nd year versions of those guys will improve the rotation - now the staff needs more improvement than merely that, but that is a reasonable source for optimism.

[Behindenemylines]

ERod will be in the mix for rotation spot. I can see Owens if he is still with the organization start at AAA and be one of the first to be called up. A true ace is still number one priority for DD. Followed by rebuilding the bullpen and figuring what to do with Hanley.

[Orange Juiced]

A couple of encouraging signs:

 

Miley, last 21 games: 131.0 ip (6.1 ip per game), 4.05 era, 1.36 whip - that's a useful, middle of the rotation starter

 

Kelly, last 5 games: 32.0 ip (6.1 ip per game), 1.69 era, 1.13 whip - he won't keep this up, but it's a good sign that he has perhaps turned a corner

 

Kelly may be putting it together, FINALLY. Miley has been pretty steady for a long stretch this season now. If these guys can perform like this next year, that's huge for the rotation.

[a700hitter]

A couple of encouraging signs:

 

Miley, last 21 games: 131.0 ip (6.1 ip per game), 4.05 era, 1.36 whip - that's a useful, middle of the rotation starter

 

Kelly, last 5 games: 32.0 ip (6.1 ip per game), 1.69 era, 1.13 whip - he won't keep this up, but it's a good sign that he has perhaps turned a corner

 

Kelly may be putting it together, FINALLY. Miley has been pretty steady for a long stretch this season now. If these guys can perform like this next year, that's huge for the rotation.

Miley is a useful 4 or 5. If he is our #3 next season; we will not have a good staff. Kelly pitching well complicates the picture for 2016. Is this just a blip where he performs wel when the team is playing with no pressure or has he turned a corner? I wouldn't want to rely on him for anything other than being a #4 or 5 guy. If Miley and Kelly are 4 and 5, that means that Porcello needs to rebound to be a #3. That leaves little room for the kids: ER, Owens and Johnson as this staff needs to add 2 top of the rotation pitchers. I think the kids will have to remain in the minors as depth if Porcello continues to pitch like 2015 and if Kelly turns back into a pumpkin. Where does all of this leave part time pitcher Buchholz? Who know? Also, if Porcello starts stinking up the mound again, how long do they stick with him? $82 million is a big sunk cost.

[Orange Juiced]

Miley is a useful 4 or 5. If he is our #3 next season; we will not have a good staff. Kelly pitching well complicates the picture for 2016. Is this just a blip where he performs wel when the team is playing with no pressure or has he turned a corner? I wouldn't want to rely on him for anything other than being a #4 or 5 guy. If Miley and Kelly are 4 and 5, that means that Porcello needs to rebound to be a #3. That leaves little room for the kids: ER, Owens and Johnson as this staff needs to add 2 top of the rotation pitchers. I think the kids will have to remain in the minors as depth if Porcello continues to pitch like 2015 and if Kelly turns back into a pumpkin. Where does all of this leave part time pitcher Buchholz? Who know? Also, if Porcello starts stinking up the mound again, how long do they stick with him? $82 million is a big sunk cost.

 

I'm with you in that there are tons of questions. Miley probably isn't one of them, now that he's adjusted to the AL. His FIP numbers the past four years (including 2015) are: 3.15, 3.98, 3.98, and 3.92. A pitcher who gives you 200 innings and gives you that kind of quality is a solid, solid pitcher. He's not a staff ace or anything like that. But he's not a #5 either. The big question for him is whether his actual results (ERA) can match how he's actually pitched (FIP).

 

They absolutely need an ace. I want to deal Buchholz and maybe even Owens and get a better #2, and sign Price to be the #1. Then you slot Miley, Rodriguez, and Kelly behind those two. That would be a pretty darned good rotation.

 

The bullpen, however, needs a complete overhaul. Good lord what a mess.

[Kimmi]

Miley is a useful 4 or 5. If he is our #3 next season; we will not have a good staff. Kelly pitching well complicates the picture for 2016. Is this just a blip where he performs wel when the team is playing with no pressure or has he turned a corner? I wouldn't want to rely on him for anything other than being a #4 or 5 guy. If Miley and Kelly are 4 and 5, that means that Porcello needs to rebound to be a #3. That leaves little room for the kids: ER, Owens and Johnson as this staff needs to add 2 top of the rotation pitchers. I think the kids will have to remain in the minors as depth if Porcello continues to pitch like 2015 and if Kelly turns back into a pumpkin. Where does all of this leave part time pitcher Buchholz? Who know? Also, if Porcello starts stinking up the mound again, how long do they stick with him? $82 million is a big sunk cost.

 

If Kelly can pitch like he has pitched recently, I would have no problem with the Sox keeping him in the rotation to start the season and starting Rodriquez in AAA. Again, it might not be fair, but that's the best way to ensure quality depth in the rotation. If Kelly starts faltering, move him to the pen and call Rodruquez up.

[dupree]

If Kelly can pitch like he has pitched recently, I would have no problem with the Sox keeping him in the rotation to start the season and starting Rodriquez in AAA. Again, it might not be fair, but that's the best way to ensure quality depth in the rotation. If Kelly starts faltering, move him to the pen and call Rodruquez up.

I like this idea as well.

DD is on record of saying if Bucholtz is healthy he would be a good signing at his team option price. But who knows if he gets healthy anytime soon.

 

I like the idea of Price but still I think he is Chicago bound next year. He is the best of the bunch as far as FAs. But it remains to be seen if he wants to be in Boston.

 

Maybe only an addition of Price is all this team needs for next year. Price, Bucholtz, Porcello, Kelly, & Miley is a good rotation. It allows all the kids to develop and if need be an addition at the deadline. I think it would let DD evaluate what he has instead of changing the whole mindset and moving the kids who definitely have major league talent.

[cp176]

There is no way that E-Rod starts the year anywhere but Boston next year if he is healthy. He is no ace just yet by any means but he at least gives some sense of confidence to the fan base when he takes the mound. It isn't about what is fair or about how to juggle a pitching staff, it is about doing what is best for your team. it might be a little bit different if he wasn't already pitching better than almost all of the current members of the starting rotation. I think that even the Red Sox management can see this one the right way.

[mvp 78]

ERod in AAA? Lol no.